TC Sounds LMS-Ultra 5400 vs. passive Funk Audio 18.0SE w/ TSAD18v1 for music (2.1) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 03-06-2014, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anybody heard both of these drivers?

If I go for the LMS-Ultra, i’d like to have the cabinet built by either Funk Audio or a local woodworking service. I want to get the cab veneered in Brazilian Rosewood to match the speakers. If I go for the 18.0SE, i’d spring for the passive version as I already have an iNuke to power it. Price is not a factor since I estimate either route will come out to roughly the same amount. What’s the better option, taking into consideration these factors:

-It will be used strictly for music, maybe a movie on cable TV on occasion.
-It will be run on a 15amp line powered by either 1 channel of an iNuke 6000DSP or a bridged EP4000. I believe that equates to ~1,800-2000 watts. So the LMS-U will definitely be amp limited but I think it should still sound great for music at non-reference levels. I’m not sure how much power Funk’s TSAD driver can take but their powered version comes equipped with a 2400W amp, so i’m assuming the Behringers would be a nice match.
-I won’t be pushing it to extreme SPL’s. Again, it’s for 2 channel music and i’m limited to a 15amp line, plus I never dial the receiver past -16dB.

Every account i’ve read about the LMS-U has praised it for it’s super clean and tight reproduction of bass, especially when it comes to music. I haven’t read much about the TSAD18v1 but the data-bass charts for both drivers are nearly head-to-head and Funk subs in general seems to be very highly regarded. Has anybody heard these TSAD drivers and can comment on how they sound for music?
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post #2 of 36 Old 03-06-2014, 10:49 PM
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not sure, but you may wish to consider the advantages of multiples (of lesser subs) for the benefits of smoothing out room modes. absorption and eq as well. the room-sub system.

it would be kind of sad to see a single ultimate sub in a beautiful cab give a terrible result acoustically because of placement and other room issues.

i might suggest more of a pro type driver with a really good top end. perhaps something along the lines of the acoustic elegance td18h+.

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post #3 of 36 Old 03-07-2014, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I have considered multiple lesser drivers but for now i’m looking for the best possible SQ in a single sub. I may integrate a 2nd sometime in the future but there are already too many speakers/subs around the house so I want to focus on just one. I plan to find the the best spot to place the sub in the room, and later will pick up a calibrated Umik-1 to use REW + the DSP on the iNuke to equalize things.

Thanks for the tip on the AE woofer, that sensivity spec looks real nice. I admit i’m not widely familiar with all the drivers out there, mainly just the ones popular on AVS (Stereo Integrity, Dayton SHO/Ultimax, iST UXL-18, and all the internet direct subs.) I have a pair of Seaton SubMersives in a 5.2 setup and it sounds quite nice for music, but i’ve read the LMS-U sounds even better. I plan to cross at 80Hz to a pair of 85.5db 1W/1M standmount speakers so sheer output isn't of priority and neither is <20Hz bass.
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post #4 of 36 Old 03-07-2014, 12:02 PM
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Since Funk used to use the LMS Ultra, you might ask Nathan for a comparison, although he would probably be a bit biased for the TSAD. Anyway, this post looks to be dead on what you are looking for, lucky you!
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post #5 of 36 Old 03-07-2014, 02:22 PM
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Have you considered Rythmik Servo Subwoofer kits. Their wicked for music application.
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post #6 of 36 Old 03-08-2014, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Since Funk used to use the LMS Ultra, you might ask Nathan for a comparison, although he would probably be a bit biased for the TSAD. Anyway, this post looks to be dead on what you are looking for, lucky you!

Excellent, thanks for the link. Seems like they sound quite a bit different, gonna be tough trying to decide...
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Have you considered Rythmik Servo Subwoofer kits. Their wicked for music application.

I have an FV12 in a bedroom and mid/upper-bass is a little lacking for music but it's still pretty nice, especially for the money.
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post #7 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopaddiction View Post

I have considered multiple lesser drivers but for now i’m looking for the best possible SQ in a single sub. I may integrate a 2nd sometime in the future but there are already too many speakers/subs around the house so I want to focus on just one. I plan to find the the best spot to place the sub in the room, and later will pick up a calibrated Umik-1 to use REW + the DSP on the iNuke to equalize things.

Thanks for the tip on the AE woofer, that sensivity spec looks real nice. I admit i’m not widely familiar with all the drivers out there, mainly just the ones popular on AVS (Stereo Integrity, Dayton SHO/Ultimax, iST UXL-18, and all the internet direct subs.) I have a pair of Seaton SubMersives in a 5.2 setup and it sounds quite nice for music, but i’ve read the LMS-U sounds even better. I plan to cross at 80Hz to a pair of 85.5db 1W/1M standmount speakers so sheer output isn't of priority and neither is <20Hz bass.

 

Just curious if you've ever listened to Keith Yates discuss bass, perhaps give it a shot before you make that decision to go with one "ultimate" sub. Because in the end one monster sub is simply going to amplify whatever issues you have with the room even more—and you are definitely going to have issues with the room.

Check it out:

 


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post #8 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 11:13 AM
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I have not heard the FA driver. But, I have three LMSs and they are arguably the best driver ever made.
If you are looking for the highest SQ, I doubt you will find a better single driver.

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post #9 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Just curious if you've ever listened to Keith Yates discuss bass, perhaps give it a shot before you make that decision to go with one "ultimate" sub. Because in the end one monster sub is simply going to amplify whatever issues you have with the room even more—and you are definitely going to have issues with the room.


Check it out:


 

I haven't seen this particular video. Thanks for the link, i'll check it out.

I do understand all the benefits of multiple subs but again, want to minimize on # of speakers while maximizing quality. A 2nd matching sub sometime in the future isn't out of the question.
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I have not heard the FA driver. But, I have three LMSs and they are arguably the best driver ever made.
If you are looking for the highest SQ, I doubt you will find a better single driver.

That's what I keep hearing, though most of the reports have been in regards to HT. The few reviews i've read about the TSAD have also been very positive and the measurements are up to snuff.

I've inquired with Nathan Funk and he's been very responsive. Right now i'm leaning towards a passive dual-TSAD system in a 44" high cabinet. I was inspired by this: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1075618/your-subwoofer-picture-thread/2370#post_23812907
Absolutely beautiful.

2 TSAD drivers actually equates to $600 less than 2x LMS-U's, so the difference in cost turns out to be quite significant.
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post #10 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Since Funk used to use the LMS Ultra, you might ask Nathan for a comparison, although he would probably be a bit biased for the TSAD. Anyway, this post looks to be dead on what you are looking for, lucky you!

Before going with four UXL-18's I was talking with Nathan about buying some of his TSAD18v1 drivers and this is what he had to say comparing them with TC subs.

"Overall output falls between the two, with more low end than the 5100 but a little less than the 5400, more top end than the 5400, but less than the 5100. Distortion is comparable to the 5400 at max output, below 60hz, and lower just below max output. Above 60hz distortion is lower at max output. Distortion is significantly lower than the 5100 almost everywhere."

And along with that he also had this to say.

"The main aspect that sets our driver aside is mechanical safety, we have a significant margin between the motor travel and the mechanical limits. It is nearly impossible to bottom out. Most drivers including both the Tc sounds drivers, have little or no clearance, so the motor still has full strength when the cone hits the mechanical limits, and has the ability to tear itself apart. We have yet to have a driver damaged from use, and we have really abused it in testing."
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post #11 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


Before going with four UXL-18's I was talking with Nathan about buying some of his TSAD18v1 drivers and this is what he had to say comparing them with TC subs.

"Overall output falls between the two, with more low end than the 5100 but a little less than the 5400, more top end than the 5400, but less than the 5100. Distortion is comparable to the 5400 at max output, below 60hz, and lower just below max output. Above 60hz distortion is lower at max output. Distortion is significantly lower than the 5100 almost everywhere."

And along with that he also had this to say.

"The main aspect that sets our driver aside is mechanical safety, we have a significant margin between the motor travel and the mechanical limits. It is nearly impossible to bottom out. Most drivers including both the Tc sounds drivers, have little or no clearance, so the motor still has full strength when the cone hits the mechanical limits, and has the ability to tear itself apart. We have yet to have a driver damaged from use, and we have really abused it in testing."

 

 

Did Nathan give you a price on those drivers? Just curious......................

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post #12 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 07:30 PM
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Did Nathan give you a price on those drivers? Just curious.....................
Yeah, if Nathan is selling the TSAD drivers separately, that would be interesting.
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post #13 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 07:48 PM
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Did Nathan give you a price on those drivers? Just curious......................


Yes he did, they are $850ea and I think he'll give you a little discount if you buy multiples. I don't know if that price included shipping though.

If it was me and I was spending that much I would take his drivers over the TC LMS-U's personally.
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post #14 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 10:52 PM
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Yes he did, they are $850ea and I think he'll give you a little discount if you buy multiples. I don't know if that price included shipping though.

If it was me and I was spending that much I would take his drivers over the TC LMS-U's personally.

Someone posted measurements of lms vs tsad. I'd take the lms.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/80892-review-side-side-lms5400-vs-tsad18.html#post897519

lms is black

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post #15 of 36 Old 03-12-2014, 10:58 PM
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Here's some more info from Nathan weighing on the two drives from the thread that Not linked.

"Yes there are many other factors other than room response, and even distortion, that can make drivers(yes even subwoofers, as some people do believe this to be true with mids and tweeters, many do not believe it true with subwoofers) sound different. Even when the LMS and TSAD are Eq'ed to identical frequency response's(their THD curves are very similar, with the TSAD having slightly higher THD under 30hz, and less over ~50hz), they do sound "different"

The main differences that make the TSAD18 sound different than the LMS, "better"(everyone so far who has compared them side by side has come to this conclusion), are efficiency, power compression, and inductance linearity.

The overall efficiency of the TSAD is higher than the LMS, allowing it to have more overall output with the same power

The power compression is lower on the TSAD, giving it better dynamics especially in the upper(over 40hz) bass. This is also compounded with the higher efficiency.

Inductance linearity, this I feel is a common design oversight with subwoofer drivers, as the inductance changes through the stroke of the cone this changes the impeadance curve even as low as ~40/50hz, which affects the frequency response, distortion and power required, from the amplifier(the amplifier is dealing with changing loads with every cone movement, and different changes at different frequencies).

Docks; try moving your crossover frequency up, even as high as 200hz, and compare the TSAD to the LMS with increasing frequency. Your setup lends itself to this without having localization issues."
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post #16 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 03:24 AM
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I think it depends what you are looking for.

For most use I would take the TSAD going by data bass measurements but for below 40-50Hz the LMS has an advantage. From what I can estimate, in a ported cabinet the TSAD should close the gap as near tune the extra excursion is not as useful as the port does the work, if tuned at about 15-20Hz then the TSAD should roughly equal the LMS below 40-50Hz and best it above it. I would venture a guess that the TSAD is not all "motor" like the LMS and coupled with the mechanical clearance it might be a better driver than the LMS for an LLT as it would likely be a lot more durable.

It should be noted the data bass tests use the sealed LMS in a 20% larger cabinet than the sealed TSAD, the sensitivity and output of the TSAD should be a bit higher and distortion a touch lower if the box is made bigger appropriate to its T/S, with that said if one was looking for maximum clean low bass output below 40Hz in the smallest sealed enclosure possible I think the LMS is still the preferred choice.
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post #17 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Here's some more info from Nathan weighing on the two drives from the thread that Not linked.

"Yes there are many other factors other than room response, and even distortion, that can make drivers(yes even subwoofers, as some people do believe this to be true with mids and tweeters, many do not believe it true with subwoofers) sound different. Even when the LMS and TSAD are Eq'ed to identical frequency response's(their THD curves are very similar, with the TSAD having slightly higher THD under 30hz, and less over ~50hz), they do sound "different"

The main differences that make the TSAD18 sound different than the LMS, "better"(everyone so far who has compared them side by side has come to this conclusion), are efficiency, power compression, and inductance linearity.

The overall efficiency of the TSAD is higher than the LMS, allowing it to have more overall output with the same power

The power compression is lower on the TSAD, giving it better dynamics especially in the upper(over 40hz) bass. This is also compounded with the higher efficiency.

Inductance linearity, this I feel is a common design oversight with subwoofer drivers, as the inductance changes through the stroke of the cone this changes the impeadance curve even as low as ~40/50hz, which affects the frequency response, distortion and power required, from the amplifier(the amplifier is dealing with changing loads with every cone movement, and different changes at different frequencies).

Docks; try moving your crossover frequency up, even as high as 200hz, and compare the TSAD to the LMS with increasing frequency. Your setup lends itself to this without having localization issues."

With regards to inductance on subwoofer drivers, how can you tell what is optimal for a given driver? Is the Le that is listed in the T/S specs any sort of indicator for the inductance linearity? How can you know if a given driver has linear inductance?
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post #18 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 06:23 AM
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I haven't seen this particular video. Thanks for the link, i'll check it out.

I do understand all the benefits of multiple subs but again, want to minimize on # of speakers while maximizing quality. A 2nd matching sub sometime in the future isn't out of the question.
That's what I keep hearing, though most of the reports have been in regards to HT. The few reviews i've read about the TSAD have also been very positive and the measurements are up to snuff.

I've inquired with Nathan Funk and he's been very responsive. Right now i'm leaning towards a passive dual-TSAD system in a 44" high cabinet. I was inspired by this: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1075618/your-subwoofer-picture-thread/2370#post_23812907
Absolutely beautiful.

2 TSAD drivers actually equates to $600 less than 2x LMS-U's, so the difference in cost turns out to be quite significant.

I am not sure about the other drivers, but the content should be irrelevant. An ultra-low distortion driver that behaves well under all excursion levels will sound good for every purpose. Check the data-bass.com site for THD measurements and max output.

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post #19 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 06:27 AM
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2 TSAD drivers actually equates to $600 less than 2x LMS-U's, so the difference in cost turns out to be quite significant.

LMS drivers for $900 vs TSAD for $850, how is that $600 less?

If you're going with two drivers, might be good to put them each in their own enclosure.
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post #20 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not sure about the other drivers, but the content should be irrelevant. An ultra-low distortion driver that behaves well under all excursion levels will sound good for every purpose. Check the data-bass.com site for THD measurements and max output.

I agree, but I think it also has to be taken into consideration the reality that most music doesn't have content below 20Hz and most don't even dip below 30 (I guess it depends on what type of music you listen to primarily), so a more efficient driver with more effective mid/upper-bass can provide a discernible difference. I believe the TSAD exceeds the LMS in output near 40Hz in the graphs posted, though as stated above it's not a truly apples-to-apples comparison and the difference is still quite minimal. Those graphs are consistent with Docks' analysis in his LMS-U vs. TSAD comparison, the LMS had more down low while the TSAD had better upper bass.

I typically cross at 80Hz but I may go higher if I went with the TSAD's. The bookshelves I want to pair it with are relatively small speakers with 6.5" midwoofers.

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LMS drivers for $900 vs TSAD for $850, how is that $600 less?

If you're going with two drivers, might be good to put them each in their own enclosure.

Nathan told me he offers the option of building a custom cab that would fit the LMS and quoted +$300 versus a passive TSAD subwoofer. The LMS driver would be included but ships separately. I'm not so sure whether that extra cost is incurred through solely the drivers, or if it's due to some other factor like a larger enclosure or extra shipping cost for the LMS.

A dual driver Funk subwoofer adds about 50% to the total cost, as opposed to going for 2 separate enclosures with a driver in each which would double the price. I know that the latter would be a much better solution for smoothing out room modes but a tall veneered cab with dual-frontal-drivers would be goddamn gorgeous. According to Nate, it'd provide twice the output under 30hz and 50% more over 30hz, given the same power. Not too shabby imo. And again, a second one in the same fashion a few years down the line wouldn't be out of the question.
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post #21 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 10:22 PM
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I agree, but I think it also has to be taken into consideration the reality that most music doesn't have content below 20Hz and most don't even dip below 30 (I guess it depends on what type of music you listen to primarily), so a more efficient driver with more effective mid/upper-bass can provide a discernible difference. I believe the TSAD exceeds the LMS in output near 40Hz in the graphs posted, though as stated above it's not a truly apples-to-apples comparison and the difference is still quite minimal. Those graphs are consistent with Docks' analysis in his LMS-U vs. TSAD comparison, the LMS had more down low while the TSAD had better upper bass.

I typically cross at 80Hz but I may go higher if I went with the TSAD's. The bookshelves I want to pair it with are relatively small speakers with 6.5" midwoofers.
Nathan told me he offers the option of building a custom cab that would fit the LMS and quoted +$300 versus a passive TSAD subwoofer. The LMS driver would be included but ships separately. I'm not so sure whether that extra cost is incurred through solely the drivers, or if it's due to some other factor like a larger enclosure or extra shipping cost for the LMS.

A dual driver Funk subwoofer adds about 50% to the total cost, as opposed to going for 2 separate enclosures with a driver in each which would double the price. I know that the latter would be a much better solution for smoothing out room modes but a tall veneered cab with dual-frontal-drivers would be goddamn gorgeous. According to Nate, it'd provide twice the output under 30hz and 50% more over 30hz, given the same power. Not too shabby imo. And again, a second one in the same fashion a few years down the line wouldn't be out of the question.

+300 for an enclosure for the lms vs his driver? That's steep.

Anyway, as for your comments on music, this is some music I was listening to the other day with speclab running..

5l39gg2.png
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post #22 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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+300 for an enclosure for the lms vs his driver? That's steep.

Shipping cost is probably factored in as well since I think the LMS-U is around 40-50 lbs heavier than the TSAD and also needs to be shipped separately. Might be a better idea to order it directly from Parts Express instead. Or maybe a small upcharge is included in the TSAD driver price when purchased individually, if it's really sold for $850.
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Anyway, as for your comments on music, this is some music I was listening to the other day with speclab running..

dubstep?
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post #23 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 11:01 PM
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dubstep?

neg, was KMFDM off Kunst
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post #24 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 11:21 PM
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Kmfdm? Hey 90s brother! We should throw some meatmeatmanifesto in too i think.
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post #25 of 36 Old 03-13-2014, 11:34 PM
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Kmfdm? Hey 90s brother! We should throw some meatmeatmanifesto in too i think.

lol.. meatmeat?
haha meatbeat manifesto.. havent heard that in forever. KMFDM just played a show near me, was pretty awesome. place had a decent soundsystem too.
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post #26 of 36 Old 03-14-2014, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Kmfdm? Hey 90s brother! We should throw some meatmeatmanifesto in too i think.

Don't forget FooFoo Fighters
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post #27 of 36 Old 03-14-2014, 01:08 AM
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lol.. meatmeat?
haha meatbeat manifesto.. havent heard that in forever. KMFDM just played a show near me, was pretty awesome. place had a decent soundsystem too.

 

If you have not played MBM's Answers Come in Dreams on your system you are missing one of the great deep-bass albums of all time. Check out "Please", "Zenta", and "Luminol."


Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #28 of 36 Old 03-14-2014, 09:04 AM
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If you have not played MBM's Answers Come in Dreams on your system you are missing one of the great deep-bass albums of all time. Check out "Please", "Zenta", and "Luminol."

Oops, I meant Meatbeat - I fat fingered the phone once again wink.gif. I'm happy to hear someone else has actually heard of him, as mbm is one of my favorites. Anyone with sound systems like ours should run a volley of tracks by mbm. The second disk of Subliminal Sandwich is my favorite.

Sorry for thread derailment!
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post #29 of 36 Old 03-14-2014, 03:04 PM
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Yeah...that's good stuff.
DJ Magic Mike...Feel the Bass will get it rolling too.

Not as deep..but check out Tsunami by DVBBS & B...sweet build-up.
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post #30 of 36 Old 03-30-2014, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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So say 2 subwoofers in separate sealed enclosures, ~4 cubic ft. each, crossed to bookshelf speakers at 80Hz...which would you choose (again strictly for music):

a. 2 x TC Sounds LMS-R 15"
b. 2 x Acoustic Elegance TD18H+
c. 2 x iST UXL-18

All roughly the same price. I'm aiming for the "best" fidelity/SQ in the 20Hz-80Hz region.
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