Enough theory talk, I gotta build something. Celestion FTR12-3070C - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Final Product





To get cross overs, please contact me privately.





Original Post ---------------------------


I don't know why I'm building these except that I don't have anything 'finished'. All my speakers are test boxes with half done XO'ers and robbed of parts.

I wanted these light weight, because I don't know how I'll use them. They will probably even see some PA use. Ya, not exactly ideal, but might be fun.

SEOS12 matte
DNA-360
Celestion FTR12-3070C x 2

The second woofer will be in a second box and I plan to make it somehow optional. Not sure how the XO will work for that.

Rip the maple veneer plywood to width


Dado the backside with a 3/4" stack


My son interrupted me already and wanted to do some bowl turning.


Cross cut to within 1/2" of final dimensions


Setup the cross cut sled for mitres


Use a stop block to get equal lengths


Gonna biscuit join for strength on that mitre, so I test it on some scrap MDF. If I screw up these mitres, this rather overpriced plywood has been wasted, although I could do corner infills out of walnut or something.


I wanted to veneer with this birdseye maple, but barely didn't have enough, even if I didn't veneer the bottoms.

Last edited by tuxedocivic; 10-18-2014 at 09:56 PM.
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post #2 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Carrying on.

I made this clamping block to protect to mitred corners out of a scrap piece of 2x2 maple.


All biscuits are cut and ready for assembly.


First problem. I was not aware my table saw was cutting so steep. Thankfully, this is workable. You can see the biscuit hiding in there. They do an excellent job of alignment, better than I expected.


Just before clamping


Sizing up the MDF baffles


Making a template to route the waveguide recess using one of Erich's CNC baffles


Rough cut out



Tonight I finish the waveguide template and start routing the baffles. Will also reinforce those halfway open mitre joints with some epoxy.

Stay tuned smile.gif
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post #3 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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This post will contain the data I collect on the Celestion FTR12-3070C as it comes in.

First, free air impedance right out of the box (no break in).



In the box (looks like a 52hz tune)



Frequency response (blue line, green is the tweeter)



Will update this post once I have more data on it.

------------------------

Here's the on axis response with and without the grills. Blue is without grills.



Here's the horizontal at 0, 30, and 60 degrees.



And here's a ground plane measurement for the bass response.



The 50hz tuning is about 7db down from average. There's a bit of a bump around 150hz.
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Last edited by tuxedocivic; 10-29-2014 at 09:43 AM.
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post #4 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW, Axel finished his bowl wink.gif

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post #5 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 03:14 PM
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Thanks for sharing. I love threads that share the details and techniques like this.

Did you consider doing the 2-step router-around-the-waveguide method for the waveguide template? That seems easier and likely to produce a better template than what you are doing.

-Max
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post #6 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Carrying on.

Sizing up the MDF baffles


Tonight I finish the waveguide template and start routing the baffles. Will also reinforce those halfway open mitre joints with some epoxy.

Stay tuned smile.gif

Only a single 1x2" brace? eek.gif

You are not nearly as obsessive as I expected you to be. cool.gif
+++

About that brace: Did you simply fit it to the sides and slide it in? Then simply glue it in place? What I am wondering, is if there is any pre-loading or tension on the cab walls?

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #7 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxcooper View Post

Thanks for sharing. I love threads that share the details and techniques like this.

Did you consider doing the 2-step router-around-the-waveguide method for the waveguide template? That seems easier and likely to produce a better template than what you are doing.

-Max

You're welcome. I didn't think of that. I think this will go well enough and I figured would be simpler. I'll see how the template turns out. If it's not tight, I'll chuck it and try something else.
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Only a single 1x2" brace? eek.gif

You are not nearly as obsessive as I expected you to be. cool.gif
+++

About that brace: Did you simply fit it to the sides and slide it in? Then simply glue it in place? What I am wondering, is if there is any pre-loading or tension on the cab walls?

Ha, no that's not the only brace. I'll be doing more once the baffle is on and I know where the rear of the CD and woofer motor are. I'll also be running dowels front to back that'll go through the back piece. You'll see wink.gif

That lone brace was just friction fit (pretty tight) with glue. I'll be giving it a dose of epoxy as well. I threw it in there because I had the scrap and new I'd be epoxying the mitre joints anyways.
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post #8 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 05:15 PM
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Cool. Subbed biggrin.gif

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post #9 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 05:16 PM
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What are your hopes in regards to how this performs/compares to the 1099 Tux?
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post #10 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, this should have more bass capabilities. I guess my goals for this speaker are:

Able to run without subs, but will use subs when possible.
Very strict standards for frequency response (the XO is going to be insane).
Portable (to a point).
Look good.
Sound very good.

I think this will have better bass capability as 2x12" woofers should outperform 2x10" woofers easily. But I actually would not be surprised if the 1099 was still a higher fidelity speaker. A dedicated midrange shouldn't be ignored. I'd like to build a pair of those this summer. My mids are ruined and I've robbed the rest of the parts. So I will just buy the kits like everyone else and do it right. Mine were in modular test boxes. Not exactly "finished".
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post #11 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 06:03 PM
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Tux, any drawings for this speaker to let us have a rough idea how this speaker would looks like? I'm extremely interested in this
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post #12 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well, this should have more bass capabilities. I guess my goals for this speaker are:

Able to run without subs, but will use subs when possible.
Very strict standards for frequency response (the XO is going to be insane).
Portable (to a point).
Look good.
Sound very good.

I think this will have better bass capability as 2x12" woofers should outperform 2x10" woofers easily. But I actually would not be surprised if the 1099 was still a higher fidelity speaker. A dedicated midrange shouldn't be ignored. I'd like to build a pair of those this summer. My mids are ruined and I've robbed the rest of the parts. So I will just buy the kits like everyone else and do it right. Mine were in modular test boxes. Not exactly "finished".

You're going to have to go into greater detail on the differences when you're done. I'm very interested to hear the design decisions/understand them.

I'd find it very amusing if you bought a kit from EricH for a speaker you designed as well lol.
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post #13 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Werewolf, I don't have a drawing. Its gonna be something like the tempest, with another 2/3 sized both under it without the waveguide but same woofer. It'll start to take shape soon.
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post #14 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Template worked out good.
A7550395-055B-407B-A0F0-1ECEEE150A81_zpstwlbcuyf.jpg

I fasten the template to the baffle using 18ga nailer into the surrounding material that gets trimmed off eventually
C7C15BD7-F472-4B01-999B-FBEB5FCD388B_zpsskwmoheu.jpg

I forgot how must dust routing in MDF makes. I should have done this inside. I don't have proper dust collection. I wear a mask.
8C39A0F7-EE85-45E4-85F7-932467D861D2_zpsvqje0emh.jpg

While I have the woofer out for measurements. I picked this driver partly based on looks.
C716EF42-1A86-45B7-9C5B-3FA7952BC563_zpsppddxjek.jpg

4DB9BD93-487E-4A81-9CB0-D826C0F8A689_zpsdjeec18y.jpg

Routing the driver recess didn't go well. Bondo up the boo boo.
79A5EEE9-2FF6-44C3-ADF9-07F239B21118_zpsuterk57z.jpg

Quickly cut some ports before heading in for the evening.
6362464E-4AE6-4D5E-9AFB-CC67D26452DA_zpsecrd6ehd.jpg
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post #15 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 10:34 PM
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Air gun for the dust eek.gif That's the most efficient way of getting it all over everything. Where's your vacuum?

Celestion makes some great drivers. I am sure this will turn out to be a really nice design.
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Where's your vacuum?
.

In the corner collecting dust wink.gif

I don't have dust collection. And setting up the shop vac every time is a pain. I have a blower to build a dust collector but haven't gotten to it. I have a big door on one side of the shop, and a garage door on the other. With both open and a cross breeze, it all goes out the garage door. That photo of me blowing out the dust was followed by a giant plume of dust out the door. That and I let dust land all over everything in the shop. Ya, sucks, but what ever. Every month or so I do a big clean up smile.gif
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post #17 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 11:29 PM
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Werewolf, I don't have a drawing. Its gonna be something like the tempest, with another 2/3 sized both under it without the waveguide but same woofer. It'll start to take shape soon.
so this is a ported design as well?
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post #18 of 503 Old 03-18-2014, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes it'll be ported. Triangle corner ports. They're space efficient and easy to do, plus I like the look. Sealed roll off is a tad high, and I'd like to be able to play full range in a pinch. Tuning will be 50hz. That isn't full range enough for my music tastes, but in a pinch...
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post #19 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 06:38 AM
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Another great build. Awesome.
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post #20 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 06:59 AM
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Tux,

Don't know why but am not interested...scratching head... biggrin.gif

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #21 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Air gun for the dust eek.gif That's the most efficient way of getting it all over everything. Where's your vacuum?

Celestion makes some great drivers. I am sure this will turn out to be a really nice design.


I'm an air gun guy too lol

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post #22 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 08:12 AM
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When Tux starts a build, ALL good things happen! eek.gif
And....Hooray for black coned woofers!!! biggrin.gif
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post #23 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

In the corner collecting dust wink.gif

I don't have dust collection. And setting up the shop vac every time is a pain. I have a blower to build a dust collector but haven't gotten to it. I have a big door on one side of the shop, and a garage door on the other. With both open and a cross breeze, it all goes out the garage door. That photo of me blowing out the dust was followed by a giant plume of dust out the door. That and I let dust land all over everything in the shop. Ya, sucks, but what ever. Every month or so I do a big clean up smile.gif

I clean my garage with an airgun quite regularly. It lets me blow the dust off of all the little spaces and blow it all out the garage door. After that, a good floor vacuuming and I'm good to go.
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post #24 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Yes it'll be ported. Triangle corner ports. They're space efficient and easy to do, plus I like the look. Sealed roll off is a tad high, and I'd like to be able to play full range in a pinch. Tuning will be 50hz. That isn't full range enough for my music tastes, but in a pinch...

Would you mind showing the modeling for the triangle ports? I want to use them on my build but you're ahead of me. In WinISD since I can't figure out how to adjust the port area itself, I've just been "tweaking" the round port size until the area equals the triangle ports area. I'm not sure how this is going to effect the actual tuning though. I think it will be like a slot port when using the cabinet side as a port wall(some margin of error)
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post #25 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi John,

I use unibox more than winisd (I use both once I've picked a driver), but I'm pretty sure winisd works this way. Select two ports. Square or round, doesn't matter. Size the ports via length or area, what ever it takes to size them how you'd like. I size mine for an 80hz XO at full xmax. The length is given, write that down. Not sure is area is given to you in winisd, maybe just the dimensions. either way, you can get area of a round port by saying A = pi*r^2 or pi*(d/4)^2. If the dimensions of a square are given, then A = LxW. Simple. Once you know the area of the port, you need to get the dimensions or your triangles. A = (LxW)/2. L and W are equal, so A = (L^2)/2. So you can find out the sides of the triangle. For instance, I think my port area was 20cm2. You can solve for L if you're good at algebra, or you can open a calculator and do this. 5 x 5 /2. That equals 12.5. Ok, 6x6 /2 = 18. Ok 6.5*6.5 /2 = 21.1. 6.25*6.25 /2 = 19.5. Good enough.

Now that we know the sides of the triangle are 6.25cm, we need to know the length of the piece to cut, the long side of the triangle. That's the last photo I posted above. That width is found by a^2 + b^2 = c^2. Let me simplify that for you. SQRT(L^2 + L^2) = Width of piece needed. For the 6.25cm port, thats SQRT(6.25*6.25 + 6.25*6.25) = 8.83cm. So I have to cut my ports 8.8cm wide.

For the length, don't forget to include the tickness of the baffle. That counts. Which I forgot about in my hurry last night. So I need to trim 3/4" off each of those ports.




Yaaa, that probably is a head scratcher. If that makes sense to you, great. If you are totally confused, just post the dimensions winisd is asking for and I'll work it out for you.
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post #26 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 10:44 AM
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LOL. Yeah I'm with you and that's what I've been doing.

It's just simple geometry. I was more interested in whether the models are accurate since the port is using 2 side walls of the cabinet and I'm kinda manipulating the data for the port size. It seems like it works fine though. Thanks.


Oh and inches man, I understand inches. ;-)


" I size mine for an 80hz XO at full xmax"
Are you adding the x-over into your sims also? I've never done that. Let me see if I can figure that out. I'm thinking that affects the power you can model with at the same time keeping it under xmax
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post #27 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah, ok I misunderstood what you wanted to know. Ya, I find it pretty accurate, but I've only done it a handful of times. The port material is only 1/4" and I keep it a tad long. If I need to shorten the port, it can be done relatively easily with a dremel grinder or something. There will be some natural extension along the port wall, so probably a 1/2" to long.

Yes, you can put a 12db/oct high pass on the model and excursion and port speed will reduce significantly. No sense oversizing a port. I usually check 60, 70, 80, and 100hz. Just to get a feel for the different setting and understand how the speaker should perform. Then the real world comes along and I do a ground plane measurement to make sure the model is actually working ok.
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post #28 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Template worked out good.
A7550395-055B-407B-A0F0-1ECEEE150A81_zpstwlbcuyf.jpg

Ah, now I get it. I thought you were just going to trace the cutout with a pencil and then cut it with a jigsaw. :-) It looks like you used a flush trim bit in the router, with the bearing riding on the DIYSG baffle cutout.

-Max
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post #29 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I should have described that better. Maybe I'll add some photos. But ya, flush trim bit to get the template cut. Then a top riding bearing pattern bit to cut the recess.
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post #30 of 503 Old 03-19-2014, 05:56 PM
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Tux at what depth did you recess the WG? And are you rounding the edges on the inside or does that matter?

I am looking forward to making a WG cutout guide now as soon as I get a top bearing flush trip router bit.
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