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post #1 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what I've put together so far for my first DIY build, using Parts Express items:

 

Common Options:

Part #295-472, Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm

Part #240-712, Dayton Audio DRFS1 1-3/8" x 1" Heavy Duty Rubber Feet 4 Pcs.
Part #240-933, Talent PCXF10 Patch Cable XLR Female to 1/4" TRS Male 10 ft.

 

New Options:

Part #248-6702 - Behringer NU1000DSP iNUKE 1000 Watt Power Amplifier with DSP
Part #092-198 - Neutrik NL2FX Speakon Connector 2 Pole Cable Mount
Part #092-054 - Neutrik NL4MPR Speakon Connector 4 Pole Round Chassis Mount
Part #092-192 - Neutrik NL4FRX Speakon SPX Right Angle Cable Connector 4P

 

Old Options:

Part #248-746, Behringer EP2000 Europower Power Amplifier 2 x 750W
Part #260-284, Square Speaker Terminal Cup 4" Gold Banana Binding Post
Part #095-810, Gold 12 AWG 1/4" Female Disconnect 5 Pair
Part #091-330, Banana Plug Pair Compression Type

 

Reasoning behind the choices:

 

Total cost is $485 with the spring $50 off coupon through the 24th. I figure if I'm going to do it, now's the time to jump in!

 

I was originally going to go with P-E's 15" driver/cabinet kit, figuring the combo price made the cabinet be not much more than the raw MDF would cost me. But then I noticed the shipping upcharge negates any such advantage, so I might as well buy the 18" for the same price as the kit and do my own woodwork at a friend's shop. I'll probably go with similar dimensions to P-E's 4 cubic ft box; from my rough calculations, one sheet of 4'x8' MDF should cover it.

 

The 18" Dayton driver is 900 watts RMS @ 4 ohm and the Behringer amp is 1300 watts RMS bridged @ 4 ohm, so they're a fairly solid match. My preamp has a balanced XLR out for the sub, but I couldn't find any XLR to XLR cables on P-E's site (just raw connectors), so I opted for the XLR to 1/4" TRS.  A 3' cable would be plenty long for a rack mounting, but fan noise sounds like a concern with the Behringer, so I may place it in the garage (thus the 10' cable) where it won't be audible. I would run the patch cable and power cord (so the amp can be turned on with everything else in the room by the preamp's trigger) through the wall along with the front/center speaker wires. The only issue then would be running the power cord alongside them (i.e., interference), so I might need to wrap it in foil or something to shield it where they run parallel for a bit.

 

The Behringer amp is actually overkill feature-wise, as my preamp has the PEQ and cross-over settings pretty well covered, plus a modest amount of gain control. I don't know that there's anything "simpler" with comparable power and price, though.

 

It seems like the Reference HO is the most oft-recommended of the Dayton subs, but should I be considering the Ultimax for a small improvement?

 

From the pictures on P-E's site, the 15" Dayton driver shows push-on terminals (for the female disconnects), but I don't see them on the 18". It looks like they have spring loaded posts that will easily accept 12 ga wire directly, at any rate. So, I may or may not need the female disconnects at that end, but I will at the terminal cup end to avoid having to solder. Is it okay to use regular 12 ga wire for the cup-to-woofer connection?

 

The Behringer takes banana plugs (at least, I'm pretty sure the 5-way binding posts accept them; a bit tough to tell from the pictures and description), so I'll hook up my big spool of 12 ga wiring with that to keep it simple and avoid switching over to Speakon which I'm a whole lot less familiar with.

 

The rubber feet probably aren't necessary, but I'd feel better having it up off the floor in case the water heater ever goes... I may add a second layer of MDF on the bottom, or perhaps just reinforce the corners, so all that weight isn't pushing down on a horizontal board with the feet not centered below the corners.

 

I have a bit of fiberglass fill that I pulled from an old sub that serves little purpose these days other than being a bedroom end table, but I'll need to pick up more. I'm sure I can find something suitable later locally. I've seen some people use R13 fiberglass (which I have some of lying around) and carpet padding. Does the type of fill matter much, or is mostly just a matter of covering all the hard surfaces with a moderate depth of fluffy stuff?

 

Anything else I should order at the same time? I'll get the various fasteners and cabinet materials at a hardware store. Or any suggestions for improvements to the above choices?

 

p.s. I began by looking at the Marty Sub, but I just don't think I could fit something that big in my ~25x13 room. My current sub is a 10" ported Velodyne, and that fills the room pretty well for HT impact, but lacks for musicality and could of course use more punch. :)

 

[edited to add new options to the build list]

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post #2 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 02:37 PM
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1)Drivers fine. I'd look at an SI D2 as well. Great driver for a great price while they last.

2) Replace EP2000 with Inuke DSP. Your receiver's PEQ is a band aid compared to the DSP in the Inuke or similar DSP.

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post #3 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 02:49 PM
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The pe 4 cu ft box is 23x21x23 and the Marty cube is 24 x 24 X 25.5.

Not much bigger and much better performance. The plans are on post one so if you have the tools go make some sawdust
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post #4 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

1)Drivers fine. I'd look at an SI D2 as well. Great driver for a great price while they last.

2) Replace EP2000 with Inuke DSP. Your receiver's PEQ is a band aid compared to the DSP in the Inuke or similar DSP.

 

Is the DSP on the iNUKE line that big of an improvement over the 3-band [sub] PEQ of my Emotiva UMC-200? The iNUKES don't cost a whole lot more than the regular Behringer line, but then, none of them are in stock, either... The NU3000DSP looks like it would be a very competent selection.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

The pe 4 cu ft box is 23x21x23 and the Marty cube is 24 x 24 X 25.5.

Not much bigger and much better performance. The plans are on post one so if you have the tools go make some sawdust

 

I did see the Marty Cube mentioned as a flat pack, but the thread was so long, I got a bit lost in the detail. Ah, I see that's your thread! :)  What makes it much better performance? Is it just the porting? I started out thinking that ported is the "duh!" answer, but the more I read, the less sure I am that there's a consensus. (Seems like the MiniMarty is really the one I should be trying to squeeze into the room.) Of course, I would have time to decide on the cabinet direction while awaiting the P-E materials, as long as the above list doesn't need changing.

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post #5 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homerism View Post

Is the DSP on the iNUKE line that big of an improvement over the 3-band PEQ of my Emotiva UMC-200?

Yes, not to mention I'm not a big fan of the EP2000. The 2500 is a much better amp.

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post #6 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:17 PM
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Yes the porting makes a big difference. What bass are you trying to achieve ?
Ultra low 17th or more mid bass punch ?
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post #7 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:20 PM
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Where is this coupon?
Edit: Also the Inuke 3000 is 220, version with DSP is an extra 100+. If you're happy with the UMC EQ then don't get the DSP version. Decide if it's worth the extra 100+ for you.
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post #8 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post


Yes, not to mention I'm not a big fan of the EP2000. The 2500 is a much better amp.

 

Ok, good to know. I'll look at that a bit more.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Yes the porting makes a big difference. What bass are you trying to achieve ?
Ultra low 17th or more mid bass punch ?

 

Probably more of the mid-bass punch. I can already rattle the walls and annoy the neighbors with a 10" sub having a tenth the power of what I'm considering here. :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

Where is this coupon?

 

It was mailed out in yesterday's newsletter and is plastered across the top of pages throughout P-E's site. Basically, it's 10% off your order, with $100/$250/$500 type tiers. The $500 tier works perfectly for $50 off a driver and amp.

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post #9 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:30 PM
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The cube is your better option. It has 2 - 3 db advantage in this area of 50 to 70 hz. Plus it's so small you can put two for better smooth room response.
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post #10 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:32 PM
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I have the umc200 too . I use the DSP of the Inuke and then the PEQ of the umc200 for a little fine tuning.
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post #11 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:46 PM
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For the Amp choice, doesn't seem like OP has much of a choice. Almost every amp is out of stock that you'd want to purchase. The EP2000 is the only in stock option to get that $50 off.
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post #12 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

Edit: Also the Inuke 3000 is 220, version with DSP is an extra 100+. If you're happy with the UMC EQ then don't get the DSP version. Decide if it's worth the extra 100+ for you.

 

Something like the 3000 has plenty of power, but it looks like all the iNUKES are Speakon-only for inputs and outputs? Having to switch everything over to that will end up costing more and being a lot less flexible for non-Pro amps down the road should I make changes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

The cube is your better option. It has 2 - 3 db advantage in this area of 50 to 70 hz. Plus it's so small you can put two for better smooth room response.

 

Is anything lost in the ported vs sealed debate to gain that 2-3 dB advantage?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I have the umc200 too . I use the DSP of the Inuke and then the PEQ of the umc200 for a little fine tuning.

 

I have a feeling I won't fully appreciate the difference... I'm one of those guys that thinks the UMC-200 auto-calibration is spot on, while others complain about needing to endlessly tweak it. :)

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post #13 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homerism View Post

Something like the 3000 has plenty of power, but it looks like all the iNUKES are Speakon-only for inputs and outputs? Having to switch everything over to that will end up costing more and being a lot less flexible for non-Pro amps down the road should I make changes.

A speakon connector is 6 bucks. You only need 1 for the output. Not that big of an investment.
Quote:
I have a feeling I won't fully appreciate the difference... I'm one of those guys that thinks the UMC-200 auto-calibration is spot on, while others complain about needing to endlessly tweak it. smile.gif

If you care about smooth FR, you will appreciate the extra flexibility the DSP provides.

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post #14 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Like I said above, I have very little familiarity with Speakon cabling. From what I could tell, it would require specific cabling in addition to the connectors, right? I already have 50+ feet of 10 ga or 12 ga speaker wire for the project.

 

Does the iNUKE offer any advantages other than the DSP? I honestly don't think that's going to be a big selling point for me. It has a not-so-reassuring cheap plasticy look, IMO.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by homerism View Post

Like I said above, I have very little familiarity with Speakon cabling. From what I could tell, it would require specific cabling in addition to the connectors, right? I already have 50+ feet of 10 ga or 12 ga speaker wire for the project.

Does the iNUKE offer any advantages other than the DSP? I honestly don't think that's going to be a big selling point for me. It has a not-so-reassuring cheap plasticy look, IMO.

Just the end piece is all you need. I agree on the cheap "plasticy" look. I have 2 EP2500s and an Inuke 3000. I like my EP's better but the Inukes are dirt cheap right now and are great performers.

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post #16 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Just the end piece is all you need. I agree on the cheap "plasticy" look. I have 2 EP2500s and an Inuke 3000. I like my EP's better but the Inukes are dirt cheap right now and are great performers.

 

Just the end pieces ... so, regular speaker cable can be inserted into the Speakon connectors? If so, then I suppose I could convert the whole setup to Speakon (and figure out what connects to its bigger terminals on the inside of the port in the cabinet). Although, I would have to find a XLR-to-Speakon or RCA-to-Speakon converter to hook up an iNUKE to the preamp.

 

I see from the P-E listings that the iNUKEs are ~10% more of a discount than the rest of the Behringer line, so I see your point about them being preferable because of the current pricing.

 

What is it about the EP2500 that you like more than the EP2000, and why does P-E not sell it? (Rhetorical question.)

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post #17 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 04:50 PM
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The EP2000 didn't test nearly as well as the EP2500 did. There's a sticky at the top with some performance numbers so you can look through them.

For me it would either be 2500 or 3000 (the 1000 would suffice for you though with a single sub).

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post #18 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, P-E doesn't have the EP1000, EP2500, or EP3000 listed. The only two options in that line are the EP2000 and EP4000.

 

Edit:  Is this the sticky you're referring to?

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers

 

It has the EP2500 listed, but nothing for the EP2000.

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For the record, the EP4000 is the same thing as the EP2500, and also the EP2000 is the same as the EP1500.

By "the same", I mean they literally just changed the labels.
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For the record, the EP4000 is the same thing as the EP2500, and also the EP2000 is the same as the EP1500.

By "the same", I mean they literally just changed the labels.

 

Well, that's just plain bizarre!  No wonder there's such a strong preference of the EP2500 over the EP2000. That sequence labeling is quite misleading now.

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Also, beyond the DSP advantage of the inuke over the EP series, you are also able to limit the inukes output voltage through its software. So if you were to purchase an EP2500/EP4000 and ran it at 4ohms bridged, you'd get the full 1950wrms which might be problematic for some drivers. Whereas with the inuke, with the same 4ohm bridged load, you can limit the output to whatever you wanted and keep the driver safe.
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Also, beyond the DSP advantage of the inuke over the EP series, you are also able to limit the inukes output voltage through its software. So if you were to purchase an EP2500/EP4000 and ran it at 4ohms bridged, you'd get the full 1950wrms which might be problematic for some drivers. Whereas with the inuke, with the same 4ohm bridged load, you can limit the output to whatever you wanted and keep the driver safe.

 

Sort of a digital gain knob equivalent of a plate amp, huh? A sealed enclosure just helps protect against too low of a frequency, not the max power, right?

 

I suppose I could always run the EP series amp in stereo mode, humming along at 50% capacity, and create a need for a second sub down the road to utilize the other channel. :)

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This is probably a stupid question, but the descriptions for the iNuke NU1000DSP and NU3000DSP both state, "The rear panel is just as elegant, with combo XLR and 1/4" TRS input connectors making the iNUKE compatible with virtually any source, balanced or unbalanced." But the pictures show nothing of the sort as far as I can tell.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=248-6702 (1000)

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=248-6706 (3000)

 

Those are only Speakon inputs, aren't they? Do they mean it comes with adapters for XLR and TRS, maybe?

 

At 750 watts RMS bridged into 4 ohm, the NU1000DSP wouldn't lag behind the Dayton 18" driver too much, so that could be a decent match. And it's in stock! But it would leave me $35 shy of the $50 discount, so I would need to go on an extended shopping spree to fill out the order with Speakon related stuff... The NU3000DSP is only $30 more than the EP2000, but who knows if it'll actually be in stock in a couple weeks.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by homerism View Post

This is probably a stupid question, but the descriptions for the iNuke NU1000DSP and NU3000DSP both state, "The rear panel is just as elegant, with combo XLR and 1/4" TRS input connectors making the iNUKE compatible with virtually any source, balanced or unbalanced." But the pictures show nothing of the sort as far as I can tell.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=248-6702 (1000)
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=248-6706 (3000)

Those are only Speakon inputs, aren't they? Do they mean it comes with adapters for XLR and TRS, maybe?

At 750 watts RMS bridged into 4 ohm, the NU1000DSP wouldn't lag behind the Dayton 18" driver too much, so that could be a decent match. And it's in stock! But it would leave me $35 shy of the $50 discount, so I would need to go on an extended shopping spree to fill out the order with Speakon related stuff... The NU3000DSP is only $30 more than the EP2000, but who knows if it'll actually be in stock in a couple weeks.

The inputs accept xlr with the outputs being speakon. You'd just need to grab an XLR adapter to go from your receiver to the amp.

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post #25 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Really, those take XLR directly? My preamp has XLR out, but I'm confused by the iNUKE back panel pictures. Does the NU1000DSP seem like the best option so far?
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Really, those take XLR directly? My preamp has XLR out, but I'm confused by the iNUKE back panel pictures. Does the NU1000DSP seem like the best option so far?

I'll repeat myself. The input takes an XLR input with the output accepting speakon only.

A nuke 1000 will be just fine if you're not looking at trying to get outrageous power out of the driver.

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post #27 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

The pe 4 cu ft box is 23x21x23 and the Marty cube is 24 x 24 X 25.5.

Not much bigger and much better performance.

The 4 cuft sealed is 20" x 23" x 20.75". smile.gif


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post #28 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll repeat myself. The input takes an XLR input with the output accepting speakon only.

A nuke 1000 will be just fine if you're not looking at trying to get outrageous power out of the driver.

 

I was asking for clarification, not suggesting that you repeat yourself for no good reason. :) But looking closer at the NU1000DSP, I see where I was confused. The input ports do have the shape of a XLR connection, but that rubber plug cover thingy makes it look incredibly similar to the Speakon cover. I guess a TRS connector just plugs into the middle of the XLR port?  In which case, I could stick with the XLR-to-TRS cable I linked above.

 

As for the NU1000DSP's power being "just fine," how would you define outrageous in terms of the 18" Dayton's capabilities? It's 83% of the driver's rating. Is that leaving too much untapped power on the table to be good use of the 18" (as opposed to the 15"), or is it a close enough mating that the added DSP will keep the impact of the 18" as the clear winner? I hope that made sense.

 

Quote:
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The 4 cuft sealed is 20" x 23" x 20.75". smile.gif

 

Good catch. I should have noticed that mistake after writing out all the dimensions for figuring the most efficient way to do the cuts. 4x1x5" is a fairly big difference in overall dimensions. But, if anyone else wants to chime in on which cabinet they think is the best choice, by all means do so!

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post #29 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 11:49 PM
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Are these amps in stock for you homerism? For me there are no amp choices that are in stock but the EP2500. All of the inukes are sold out.
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post #30 of 70 Old 03-21-2014, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tential View Post

Are these amps in stock for you homerism? For me there are no amp choices that are in stock but the EP2500. All of the inukes are sold out.


That's weird, the NU1000DSP shows as in stock for me. Are you outside the US?

 

I did find XLR-XLR cables on P-E's site. They're listed under microphone cables.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/microphone-cables/670

 

They don't list "balanced" versions like with the XLR-TPS one I selected, though, so I'm not sure if they're the same thing?

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