Flatpacks for a tall/small footprint 18" PORTED sub - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 120 Old 04-08-2014, 06:35 AM
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After Beasts Gtg I think them 24's are on a lot of peoples minds. biggrin.gif
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post #92 of 120 Old 04-08-2014, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

So far it's not looking too good. Everything is fine and all subs give more gain until I put a high pass filter on the caps and then all hell breaks loose with the freq response and we are talking way above the hp, I don't get it. It affects frequencies up to 60 hz when I try a hp. I tried all possible slopes, different frequencies for the hp and different distance settings for the caps and same thing, a hp completely messes up the response.

I thought it would be the other way around since setting a hp filter at archaea's place made things better...confused.gif

No way i would want to go without a hp so this may not work.

Adding in the HPF can and will affect phase overall and of course response of the system. You can try experimenting with different order steps (1st to 4th order) to try to clean this up for something that works but will likely require phase/delay adjustment to clean up that region. In my experience though it is very difficult to align on more than just a single frequency or octave when blending.
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post #93 of 120 Old 04-08-2014, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Adding in the HPF can and will affect phase overall and of course response of the system. You can try experimenting with different order steps (1st to 4th order) to try to clean this up for something that works but will likely require phase/delay adjustment to clean up that region. In my experience though it is very difficult to align on more than just a single frequency or octave when blending.


Thanks for the info Rilla, didn't know that HPF's mess with phase - but I'm seeing first hand that it's true. Damn, back to the drawing board.

I talked to Brandon tonight and he said to stop chasing the unicorn of trying to get perfect bass at all seating positions, put my 8 subs back up front (4 stacked in each corner) and let 'em rip. cool.gif

I think he is right....the whole reason I'm looking for more output is that I lost a ton of headroom spreading the subs around the room. I was having more fun when they were stacked in the corners.
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post #94 of 120 Old 04-08-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thanks for the info Rilla, didn't know that HPF's mess with phase - but I'm seeing first hand that it's true. Damn, back to the drawing board.

I talked to Brandon tonight and he said to stop chasing the unicorn of trying to get perfect bass at all seating positions, put my 8 subs back up front (4 stacked in each corner) and let 'em rip. cool.gif

I think he is right....the whole reason I'm looking for more output is that I lost a ton of headroom spreading the subs around the room. I was having more fun when they were stacked in the corners.

Right on Carp....If you can do any 1/4 point placement you will help eliminate some issues and get them to give you great output. At Andrew's place on Monday we messed with his a bit. His screen wall didn't allow 1/4 points, but even still we played around and stacked them on either side of the center and the result was fantastic there too. The bass is very even in the room and the output is damn near staggering.
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post #95 of 120 Old 04-08-2014, 06:49 PM
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Hahaha, you read my mind I've been thinking about that this morning. biggrin.gif

Do it!!! They're ridiculous
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post #96 of 120 Old 04-08-2014, 07:12 PM
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I wonder how it would sound with two HS24's up front with one in each corner and two stacks or four SI 18's in the back of the room?

I'm sure that would smooth things out at all on the seating positions and give you that headroom back smile.gif

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post #97 of 120 Old 04-10-2014, 10:06 PM
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I'm looking to build a few low profile ported subs and after hearing about the SI 24 I am now curious as well. I just keep going back to winisd and 2 15cuft SI 24's vs 4 Dayton HO's in 10cuft ported shows the Dayton's way out in front. On top of that I could get all 4 daytons for less than one SI 24.

Is there any other reason to go with the big sealed 24's vs 4 ported daytons? They will all go behind my screen at the 1/4 points vertically and horizontally so I'm hoping room response should be pretty even.
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post #98 of 120 Old 04-10-2014, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post

I'm looking to build a few low profile ported subs and after hearing about the SI 24 I am now curious as well. I just keep going back to winisd and 2 15cuft SI 24's vs 4 Dayton HO's in 10cuft ported shows the Dayton's way out in front. On top of that I could get all 4 daytons for less than one SI 24.

Is there any other reason to go with the big sealed 24's vs 4 ported daytons? They will all go behind my screen at the 1/4 points vertically and horizontally so I'm hoping room response should be pretty even.

Yes if you wanted to be able to have tons of output down to 5-7hz. If that's not really your thing them go with the large ported cabinets, that's what I did and I have no complaints smile.gif

I considered the SI HS24 too, because its just bad A$$. But in the end it wasn't worth it for me, I wanted ported enclosures and I would have needed to build something around 36cubic/ft to go with a ported HS24 and then with my being in Canada there was the price.
For less then what a single HS24 would have cost me I was able to get three UXL-18's, so really for me it was a no brainer. smile.gif

Actually now that I think about it, if I take into account what it would have costs to ship that monster SI HS24 out my way I honestly think it would have cost more then what I paid for all four of my UXL-18's eek.gif

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post #99 of 120 Old 04-10-2014, 10:50 PM
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I too am not really concerned about < 10hz content as long as I can get a tune around 15/16 I'll be perfectly happy.

Do you think given the new pricing on the UXL-18's that it is worth it vs the dayton HO. The dayton is less than 1k vs $2200 on the UXL. I know the output is greater with the UXL but if there are 4 of them rocking I don't think the extra db's over 125 are going to matter much. Is there any sonic advantage of going with the UXL vs Dayton?
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post #100 of 120 Old 04-10-2014, 11:05 PM
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That's something that I think only you can make the call. Right from the start I knew I was going to go with the UXL-18's and I even considered the LMS-U ($925ea) and the TSAD18v1 ($850ea). So I never really considered the HO, or SI 18's much. If you're never really going to push them hard then I'd say no, for you it probably wouldn't be worth it. When I started out with my build I had a rough budget in mind and that included buying four UXL-18's at the non group buy price along with two amps and the wood that I needed. The fact that I was able to get them at an awesome price was just a nice added bonus. For me I personally think the added performance was worth it, but if you can't see yourself spending the extra money I say get the HO's and just be happy with them.

As far as the sonic advantage, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking? Personally I kind of think bass is bass, if its playing loud and clean without distortion you can't really hear a difference sound quality wise. Its once you start to push a driver and the THD goes up and it starts to distort, that's when you can hear a sound difference between two drivers.

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post #101 of 120 Old 04-10-2014, 11:51 PM
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I am basically positive that 4 large ported subs even with Dayton's will have enough output for me. It seems like most people are looking for 120dbs at 20hz and these should blow that away. I am a little concerned about what you are saying about stressing the drivers and getting distortion. When I model the Dayton's what wattage should I put in so that it is a safe number that won't give a bunch if distortion?

Now do you think it's worth waiting for the dayton UM? I already ordered 4 about a month ago and saw they just pushed it back again. I don't mind waiting if it will deliver a better result as I got a good price on them.

And last question is would it be possible to build these 15" x 40" x 48" with the driver as close as possible to one of the corners vs in the center?
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post #102 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post

I am basically positive that 4 large ported subs even with Dayton's will have enough output for me. It seems like most people are looking for 120dbs at 20hz and these should blow that away. I am a little concerned about what you are saying about stressing the drivers and getting distortion. When I model the Dayton's what wattage should I put in so that it is a safe number that won't give a bunch if distortion?

Now do you think it's worth waiting for the dayton UM? I already ordered 4 about a month ago and saw they just pushed it back again. I don't mind waiting if it will deliver a better result as I got a good price on them.

And last question is would it be possible to build these 15" x 40" x 48" with the driver as close as possible to one of the corners vs in the center?

If you're willing to wait then yes, get the UM18-22 as it should offer better performance then the HO.

The HO is rated for 900watt RMS isn't? I think Josh Ricci was saying that the most he would use is 1500watt's with the HO and with a ported enclosure you'll definitely need to use a HP filter for around the port tune of the enclosure.

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post #103 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 12:27 AM
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How rapid is the roll off after the HP filter? Does it pretty much just stop or is there any residual in the lower frequencies. I'm really not that concerned about hitting 5hz just curious on this one. Also I think I may have been screwed up when running winisd as I had the LP at 1m when I'll actually be about 4m back from the subs. When I changed this the db's drop big time.
Red is 4x UXL with 8000w
Green is 4x HO with 4000w
Blue is 2x SI 24 with 4000w



Here they are at 1m
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post #104 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post

I too am not really concerned about < 10hz content as long as I can get a tune around 15/16 I'll be perfectly happy.

Do you think given the new pricing on the UXL-18's that it is worth it vs the dayton HO. The dayton is less than 1k vs $2200 on the UXL. I know the output is greater with the UXL but if there are 4 of them rocking I don't think the extra db's over 125 are going to matter much. Is there any sonic advantage of going with the UXL vs Dayton?

Just a heads up if you have not realized it yet, there is no "new pricing" on the UXL-18. The price still $530, the $440 price per driver that was posted on the web site was a "mistake" and never actual.
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post #105 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 08:36 AM
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Yea, I saw that as well. I'm figuring $530 per UXL if I go that way, it just seems hard to double the price on drivers vs the Dayton's. Does anyone know if I should have the LP at 4m vs 1m for winisd? It made a huge difference and makes me wonder if 4 subs will be enough....
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post #106 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post

Yea, I saw that as well. I'm figuring $530 per UXL if I go that way, it just seems hard to double the price on drivers vs the Dayton's. Does anyone know if I should have the LP at 4m vs 1m for winisd? It made a huge difference and makes me wonder if 4 subs will be enough....

Well yes it would make a huge difference because for every added meter you loose 6dB of output.

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post #107 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 12:39 PM
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So, I went back and looked at the AVS ULF thread and I'm even more confused. It says it is measured at 4m and when you put in 4 sealed UXL-18's it says they'll do 110dbs at 10hz. On winisd it shows more like 99dbs at 10hz. So which one is right? I'm thinking maybe one is in free space while the ULF thread is in a room as the db's change as room size changes....

If I change the LP in winisd to 1m they seem to match the ULF thread much better so I'm just not sure which one is a better predictor of what kind of headroom to expect in my actual room.
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post #108 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 01:39 PM
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No problem. If anyone is interested in custom one-off's and are in the Los Angeles area...let me know!

Joel

 

I'm an AVS Member in Van Nuys considering a DIY sub build. I would be very interested from any local Los Angeles area member that can assist in design/construction.  I built a Danley DTS-10 flat pack powered by a QSC 4050HD for the front of the theater and need to get two more subs for behind my sofa that would integrate with the DTS-10 and provide near field tactile response.  I have a table saw, power and woodworking tools, but only a few clamps. I used to have access to a cabinet maker with a CNC machine but he went out of business when the economy tanked.

 

I've been tracking the UXL-18 flat pack threads and like the 24x24x24 Marty Cube and 30x30x15 Stonehenge designs. They would be easier to build than starting from scratch and the Marty is a proven design.  However, neither of them are exactly the dimensions want. The space behind my sofa allows for subs 21" to 24" in depth and 30" in height. 

 

 

Location for two subwoofers behind the listening position.

 

 

I was looking at five options:

 

 

(1)  Two ported 30"x30" stonehenge style subs at 21"-24" deep for under my Rear

      Right/Left speakers. Each sub would have one UXL-18 driver  ( approx. 6.8 ft3 each ?)

 

 

(2)  Two stock 30"x30"x15" stonehenge ported subs for under my Rear Center speaker.

      I would build a 61.5"x31.5"x16.5" QTR teak plywood cabinet around them. It would 

      replace the existing cabinet and have two UXL-18 drivers  ( approx. 11 ft3 total ?)

 

 

 

 

      

(3)  One ported 24"x72" sub at 18"-21" deep for under my Rear Center speaker

      It would replace the existing cabinet and have two UXL-18 drivers 

      ( approx. 11.3-13.7 ft3 total ?)

 

 

 

OR

 

 

 

 

(4)  One ported 18"x51" sub at 16" deep to fit inside the existing cabinet space under

     my Rear Center speaker. It would have one UXL-18 driver  (app roc 5.2 ft3 ?)

     This could be used as a third sub with Option #1 above.

 

 

 

 

(5)   Save up for two JTR passive Captivators under my Rear Right/Left speakers

       (Or used if I can find them)

 

 

 

Amps under consideration are:

 

QSC 5050     2-channel:   1,100/8ohm    1,800/4ohm    2,500/2ohm   5,000/4ohm (bridged)

Peavy 7500   2-channel:   1,250/8ohm    2,020/4ohm    3,750/2ohm   2,400/4ohm (bridged) 

iNuke 6000    2-channel:   1,500/8ohm    3,000/4ohm

 

Of these, I prefer the QSC 5050 because the 4050HD came so highly recommended by Ivan Beaver at Danley Sound Labs for the DTS-10. Maybe I'm Old School on liking class A/B amps  and equating huge heavy transformers with real torque to control a large driver. Also, after spending a lot on Panamax, Furman and Tributaries AC power conditioning for seven branch circuits to the theater to filter out line noise, I'm wary of putting a big class H switching power supply on the theater wiring. The earlier class H designs were noisy as hell on the AC line:

 

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snaa057b/snaa057b.pdf

 

That doesn't matter much in a pro sound DJ or concert environment, but it's audible with electrostatics that are all plugged into wall power for the stator panels. I picked the QSC 4050HD to drive the Danley DTS-10's because it was a hybrid design using class H only for the power supply with class A/B circuitry for the amplifier section:

 

http://forum.qscservice.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3197&p=12283&hilit=class+G+switch+noise

 

 

Joel - can you help get me in touch with some LA based AVS members that can help?

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post #109 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post

Yea, I saw that as well. I'm figuring $530 per UXL if I go that way, it just seems hard to double the price on drivers vs the Dayton's. Does anyone know if I should have the LP at 4m vs 1m for winisd? It made a huge difference and makes me wonder if 4 subs will be enough....

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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Well yes it would make a huge difference because for every added meter you loose 6dB of output.

It's 6 db outside or in a very large space. WinISD's 1m prediction is in 1/2 space, which is not indicative of a residential room. Loss of SPL with distance is going to be more like 3db per doubling and there will be some gain below the lowest mode as well.
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post #110 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 04:36 PM
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So would it be more accurate to model at 2m for a 4m LP?

I'm really just trying to see if UXL-18's are needed or not. If I model them both at 2m they are ridiculously powerful and I can't see needed the extra dbs the UXL gives as the daytons are doing 120dbs at 16hz (assuming I can get a 16hz tune). The UXL is 123dbs at 16hz respectively. I already have two inuke6000dsp units so I could power either options but it will cost an extra $1000 to go with the UXL.
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post #111 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 07:11 PM
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It's complicated. wink.gif

I'm not going to tell you not to go with the ULX. More is never enough and all. I'm just trying to make you aware that in a real room things work differently than in WinISD.

So if you are going sealed you can use (Bossobass's?) .01 liter / cu ft of room volume to reach reference rule.
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post #112 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 10:47 PM
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I'm a little lost on the .01/ room cu feet thing. My room is 4200cuft so maybe someone could help figure out what that means. I am definitely planning ported subs assuming I can get a 15/16hz tune and I should be able to get 4 of them behind the screen.

Hey Jbrown what kind of spl are you getting in room with your subs? They are pretty much my inspiration for my build with the exception that I need them a bit more shallow. I read you were saying just two rocked your room so I'm hoping for a similar result. Also what size is your room?
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post #113 of 120 Old 04-11-2014, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post

I'm a little lost on the .01/ room cu feet thing. My room is 4200cuft so maybe someone could help figure out what that means. I am definitely planning ported subs assuming I can get a 15/16hz tune and I should be able to get 4 of them behind the screen.

Hey Jbrown what kind of spl are you getting in room with your subs? They are pretty much my inspiration for my build with the exception that I need them a bit more shallow. I read you were saying just two rocked your room so I'm hoping for a similar result. Also what size is your room?

I haven't taken any max SPL sweeps yet, mostly because I'm almost afraid too. But its pretty ridiculous so far, chalugadp came over two weeks ago and we took a couple sweeps and I hit like 115dB at 15hz with just two subs up and running and we weren't even pushing them.

how deep are you looking to make the subs again? and what's the height of your front ceiling?

Here's the modelled graph for one of my cabinets using a single UXL-18 powered by 2200watts.
LTD-02 modelled the graphs for me, and so far I'd have to believe they are performing pretty close to how they were modelled smile.gif



So far I'm extremely happy with the first two cabinets and can't wait to finish the last two.

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post #114 of 120 Old 04-12-2014, 12:03 AM
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Thanks for chiming in Jbrown. I'm planning on 15"x40"x40" or so. I really just want them to be as low profile as possible to keep the screen as close to the wall as possible. The room is 20'x21'x10'. The screen is on the 20' wall and I'm planning on putting the subs 5' from the corners and at 2.5' and 7.5' high to center of drivers. This will put all 4 at the 1/4 spaces horizontally and vertically for best room response. I guess I'll be building a baffle wall of sorts to hold the subs that are up high although I am a little concerned about them being up there at all. I will have to place my L and R channel on the bottom sub and then the top subs will have a shelf to sit on.

Does this sound like more trouble than its worth? If you are feeling like you have sufficient output with just two are you adding the others just for room response or just for fun? If you think 2 of these could dominate my 4200cuft room then frankly I'd just assume not have to build some crazy scaffold. But if 2 won't do it justice then I'll just have to start building!
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post #115 of 120 Old 04-12-2014, 12:29 AM
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Two with Uxl18 driver would fill that room nicely. If you go to Dayton or si then maybe four needed. If i were you start with two. I have two marty cubes in 3000cuft and it's all I need.
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post #116 of 120 Old 04-12-2014, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post

Thanks for chiming in Jbrown. I'm planning on 15"x40"x40" or so. I really just want them to be as low profile as possible to keep the screen as close to the wall as possible. The room is 20'x21'x10'. The screen is on the 20' wall and I'm planning on putting the subs 5' from the corners and at 2.5' and 7.5' high to center of drivers. This will put all 4 at the 1/4 spaces horizontally and vertically for best room response. I guess I'll be building a baffle wall of sorts to hold the subs that are up high although I am a little concerned about them being up there at all. I will have to place my L and R channel on the bottom sub and then the top subs will have a shelf to sit on.

Does this sound like more trouble than its worth? If you are feeling like you have sufficient output with just two are you adding the others just for room response or just for fun? If you think 2 of these could dominate my 4200cuft room then frankly I'd just assume not have to build some crazy scaffold. But if 2 won't do it justice then I'll just have to start building!

I'm building four because I already bought the drivers and the amp so why the hell not right?....lol
Two more will smooth out the response and its also fun..biggrin.gif

Depending on your budget I would maybe going with two UXL-18's and built two cabinets with dimensions of something along the lines of 34"wide, 16"deep and 66" high with a 15hz tune, that would give you a cabinet size of roughly 16cu/ft like mine.

Imagine a cabinet like this one with the port out the top but without the upper driver, just the bottom one.


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Falcon Screens FVHD105
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post #117 of 120 Old 04-12-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


I'm building four because I already bought the drivers and the amp so why the hell not right?....lol
Two more will smooth out the response and its also fun..biggrin.gif

Depending on your budget I would maybe going with two UXL-18's and built two cabinets with dimensions of something along the lines of 34"wide, 16"deep and 66" high with a 15hz tune, that would give you a cabinet size of roughly 16cu/ft like mine.

Imagine a cabinet like this one with the port out the top but without the upper driver, just the bottom one.

 

 

"two UXL-18's and dimensions of something along the lines f 34"wide, 16"deep and 66" high with a 15hz tune"

 

This design would be perfect for the spot directly behind my sofa.  The existing sofa table is 60" wide, 16" deep and 32" high. I could lay the sub it on it's side facing the back of the sofa. It's also a lot simpler than the others I've considered. What would the internal bracing look like? What's the port length and thickness for the 15hz tune?

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post #118 of 120 Old 04-12-2014, 02:37 PM
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"What would the internal bracing look like? What's the port length and thickness for the 15hz tune?"

I didn't really take any pictures of the bracing, sorry about that but it looks like this rendering but with only two window box braces because its one driver.



And I put a few additional braces from top to bottom, side to side and front to back.

And then on the second enclosure I did bracing like this.




I'd have to dig thru some of my PM's with LTD-02 but I think the size was 29" x 3.5" x 44" long, which would make the port tune around 14-15hz.

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post #119 of 120 Old 04-13-2014, 09:41 PM
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Does anyone know if there would be a big difference in SQ having the subs up high at 7.5' vs 2.5' if I only go with 2 vs 4?

The problem I'm having is that in my room the subs are behind the screen and to get them to the 1/4 spaces they will be 5 feet in and 40" tall for just one 18" driver centered at 2.5ft, which means my main L/R speakers are either going to be sitting on the subs at 40" high or placed along the inside closer to the center. Unfortunately placing closer to the center will put them only about 4 feet apart and they can't go on the outside of the sub as there is the screen frame and then a door on each side that would all be in the way. So, I'm wondering about potentially placing them up high so the LCR can be placed at a more normal height.

In summary my options are:

1: place 2 subs on ground with main L/R on top of 40"subs with about 6' of separation from center. (It's possible to them stack a sub over the L/R with a self to hold up)

2: place 2 subs on shelf up high at 7.5' and place mains on 20" stands with about 6' of separation from center

3: place 4 subs stacked with L/R on inside of subs for 4' of separation from center.
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post #120 of 120 Old 04-14-2014, 10:41 AM
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Or I could ditch the need for the lower subwoofer to sit at 2.5' for the 1/4 vertical space and just place it low against the floor for a total height of 22'' and use 2 going across the entire front as stands for the LCR and then if needed I could place 2 more up high at the 7.5' mark to help even response at the proper 1/4 vertical space.

I'm kinda leaning towards this now as it seems much more straight forward. I just don't want to build it and find out they suck and have to treat the room like crazy.
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