Beast's First Ever "Ballin' Out" NC g2g April 5th!!!! - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Ah ok thanks. I Was looking at their 12000 rack and plate amps also.

I asked on another thread but with the video of the 24" were you near the mechanical limits yet?

"Near" the limit? Depends on how you define "near". tongue.gif But seriously, it had some more room left but the amplifier(s) we had on tap were not thankful driving it really really hard. What was in the video was a very safe amount of excursion. And the video doesn't accurately show how much that woofer was moving. The little low frequency blips in that song REALLY get it moving for the split seconds they show up.
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post #242 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:21 AM
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Additionally, I think the LMS's were sent an ideal amount of power. I wouldn't have felt comfortable driving them further than we did if they were my personal subwoofers. That much cone movement never gets old, haha. biggrin.gif
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post #243 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:27 AM
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Thanks Nick. I was only going by the video and those 24's towards the end looked like they were moving A LOT. SO I didnt know. Either way that is quite impressive. WOW
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post #244 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post

Additionally, I think the LMS's were sent an ideal amount of power. I wouldn't have felt comfortable driving them further than we did if they were my personal subwoofers. That much cone movement never gets old, haha. biggrin.gif

Pffft, 2400 is just getting the ball rolling... Though I'm surprised no one hooked up a bridged clone to that 24". smile.gif

Either way it has me considering one 24" for my bedroom setup as I think one alone would give me plenty.
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post #245 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Shan87 View Post

Pffft, 2400 is just getting the ball rolling... Though I'm surprised no one hooked up a bridged clone to that 24". smile.gif

Either way it has me considering one 24" for my bedroom setup as I think one alone would give me plenty.

I'm confused. I thought people were able to bottom out/destroy their LMSs. That was one of the reason Notnyt changed to a ported alignment. Maybe it was with much more power?

Anyway, 24" for a BEDROOM setup? Now THAT'S insane!
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post #246 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

I'm confused. I thought people were able to bottom out/destroy their LMSs. That was one of the reason Notnyt changed to a ported alignment. Maybe it was with much more power?

Anyway, 24" for a BEDROOM setup? Now THAT'S insane!

You can definitely bottom/destroy any driver. The LMS is no exception, there is just not much room for error compared to some other drivers.
They can definitely soak up some serious power, more so than many other drivers.

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post #247 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:50 AM
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Wow, you guys have all the fun! This was great and Bosso being there confirms everything with his measuring gear! The spec graphs do show the dual LMS 5400's having more bass than the single 24.
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post #248 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 07:52 AM
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I still cant get over how good all the subs responses looked with no eq at all. Amazing rooms.
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post #249 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Wow, you guys have all the fun! This was great and Bosso being there confirms everything with his measuring gear! The spec graphs do show the dual LMS 5400's having more bass than the single 24.

No, that SpecLabs is reversed. We clearly heard and saw the SI HS24 had more bass. At 7 Hz, you could barely hear the LMS 5400s but it was clearly audible with the HS24.
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post #250 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post

No, that SpecLabs is reversed. We clearly heard and saw the SI HS24 had more bass. At 7 Hz, you could barely hear the LMS 5400s but it was clearly audible with the HS24.

If you are hearing it, then there is quite a bit of THD. 7Hz should be completely silent sans any suspension noises.

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post #251 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

You can definitely bottom/destroy any driver. The LMS is no exception, there is just not much room for error compared to some other drivers.
They can definitely soak up some serious power, more so than many other drivers.

Yeah, I know that in general. I was just trying to reconcile the comment about 2400 watts being a warmup and the fact that people have been known to bottom them in pretty small enclosures.

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Wow, you guys have all the fun! This was great and Bosso being there confirms everything with his measuring gear! The spec graphs do show the dual LMS 5400's having more bass than the single 24.

I think Electro clarified that the 24 was in the top part of the comparo graph between it and the Ultras.
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post #252 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, so many thanks to those reviews that have come in so far. I have to say, no one person would have been able to put on the meet we had Saturday by themselves. HUGE, huge gratitude to all those that helped make the day fantastic!!!!

Chop - For bringing a half a cow's worth of burgers and dogs for all to grub on. I agree with reef, those are the best dang hot dogs I have ever had. I have lots left over and believe I will be making an order for more once they are all gone!!!

Bosso and Paul - For number one, just your attendance and overall knowledge. Truly an honor to meet you both. Second, for the excellent rig that you brought along with said knowledge. The speclabs were eye opening for me and for how my system's playback is. I have to say I am proud of my system, but hearing accolades from Dave about how well it does across the FR was a very proud moment throughout my entire time in this hobby. Glad you both had a great time enjoying all the content. Oh and also for the pics! Keep on posting them! I am not the best document-er. I literally took two pics all weekend long.....

Popalock - for letting us beat the heck out of your brand new 24, for keeping us on point and pushing the limit, and for planting the seed for a little impromptu g2g that turned into a pretty serious event. You da man!!!

Dgage - For bringing your gear and allowing us to have some fun with the noesis and your ultras. Not to mention the sp2 8000. That is a serious performing amp. I want one... (one little edit for ya, the danleys are sh50's not 60's in your writeup, and we had my 18's on the other couple of movie scenes as pointed out by bosso)

NathanJ - For the speaker switcher. That thing is a lot of fun, and makes for some very easy A/B listening.

Nick - For just an awesome subwoofer(s). I wanted this meet to put the 24 on the map, but I also wanted people to see how a truly capable multiple sealed 18 setup could literally put your jaw on the floor. Thanks for producing excellent products, front to back.

Everyone - What a fantastic group of guys. Everyone I think had just as much fun talking and getting to know each other, with some world-class speaker listening as just the icing on the cake. I saw at least everyone get some time outside on the back deck. We had fantastic weather which allowed everyone short breaks to let their ears rest and chat it up. Don't get me wrong, people come to meets to listen to speakers, but just as important is putting a face to a name and really enjoy the company of enthusiasts that are just as crazy about this hobby as I am (Well, maybe). It changes the paradigm of my conversations online, always for the better. I extend an open invitation to all those that attended, any other time they want to come back by run through some other content.

I have to be honest I spent half the time by the rack switching speakers, checking levels, and changing content. The other almost half of the time I was behind the rack re-wiring through the different setups we ran that day. I will certainly come in with my impressions of the weekend later this evening or tomorrow sometime, but I encourage all that attended to continue with stellar reviews that have already come through! I have some spec labs and FR stuff to add as well which I will be able to get around to later.

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post #253 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:20 AM
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The SpeakerPower amp is the real deal. dgage mentioned how using that amp alone made a pretty profound difference on his LMS woofers. IMO it's incredibly powerful for it's size.

Actually, I've only ever used the SpeakerPower SP2-8000 on my LMS 5400s. I did take the amp over to Coach's and after listening to his pair of DO SI18s (4 total) driven by a par of EPX 4000s, I was underwhelmed. I told him after listening to my two LMS 5400s in my room, I expected more from his subs. So then we hooked up the SP2-8000 to his DO SI18s and they were like new subs and threw down as I expected. He ended up getting the IPR 7500 and he is now a happy camper.

At Beast's house, he initially hooked up his IPR-7500 to each voice coil of the HS24 and it pretty quickly went into thermal protection. We then measured the voice coils on the HS24 and they measured 1.6 ohms. So then we hooked up each voice coil to a channel of the SP2-8000 and it was fine initially and when we started pushing it, the SP2-8000 went into protection but it gave way more than the IPR-7500.

So if you were comparing the SP2-8000 to the similar IPR-7500, they produce similar power but the SpeakerPower is clearly more powerful when driven hard. Then again, you can buy 2 IPR-7500s and have some left over for the cost of an SP2-8000. One of the reasons I went with SpeakerPower is they have a quiet fan option they can do on their rack mount amps as I didn't feel like modding a brand new pro amp to reduce fan noise. Another option to the IPR 7500 is the Crest ProLite 7.5, which is a sister amp to the Peavey with some beefed up internals like additional capacitance.
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post #254 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:22 AM
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Already spoke with him, he is not going to make it.

I also had high hopes of getting the Pono player to make an appearance but alas, it only comes along with the CEO, and he just did RMK's g2g last weekend due to the fact that he only lived 20 miles away. So guess that isn't happening. Not a problem really, but would have been fun to try out.

Just found this Thread. Good idea hiding it in the DIY Section ... confused.gifwink.gif

Sounds like it was a bass feast (Bass Feast with Beast?) for all and pretty much all that attended were on the same page. Interesting comments and makes we wonder what the limits for subwoofer drivers will be? 30", 36" or just go for it and get a pair of 60's and be done with it ... smile.gif

Re the PONO thing, you got that almost right. Keith Yates is the one who lives 20 miles from me. John Hamm (PONO CEO) lives about 100 miles away and made the drive through bad traffic (even by CA standards) and the worst rain storm of the year. It was an insider deal that he came and he really didn't want it to be publicized as the player is still a prototype (1 of 5) and so not ready for public viewing. I was unaware of his desire to be stealth about his appearance but such are the internet's ... .

Keep posting guys and thanks for sharing your experiences. cool.gif

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post #255 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:56 AM
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Wow, really! The single 24 had more output than dual 5400's? According to displacement it should be the other way around but thank goodness for real events. Maybe I should add some to my rig.
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post #256 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:57 AM
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Wow, really! The single 24 had more output than dual 5400's? According to displacement it should be the other way around but thank goodness for real events. Maybe I should add some to my rig.

My guess is there were no limits on THD, so in that case possibly.

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post #257 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Just found this Thread. Good idea hiding it in the DIY Section ... confused.gifwink.gif

Sounds like it was a bass feast (Bass Feast with Beast?) for all and pretty much all that attended were on the same page. Interesting comments and makes we wonder what the limits for subwoofer drivers will be? 30", 36" or just go for it and get a pair of 60's and be done with it ... smile.gif

Re the PONO thing, you got that almost right. Keith Yates is the one who lives 20 miles from me. John Hamm (PONO CEO) lives about 100 miles away and made the drive through bad traffic (even by CA standards) and the worst rain storm of the year. It was an insider deal that he came and he really didn't want it to be publicized as the player is still a prototype (1 of 5) and so not ready for public viewing. I was unaware of his desire to be stealth about his appearance but such are the internet's ... .

Keep posting guys and thanks for sharing your experiences. cool.gif
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Actually, I've only ever used the SpeakerPower SP2-8000 on my LMS 5400s. I did take the amp over to Coach's and after listening to his pair of DO SI18s (4 total) driven by a par of EPX 4000s, I was underwhelmed. I told him after listening to my two LMS 5400s in my room, I expected more from his subs. So then we hooked up the SP2-8000 to his DO SI18s and they were like new subs and threw down as I expected. He ended up getting the IPR 7500 and he is now a happy camper.

At Beast's house, he initially hooked up his IPR-7500 to each voice coil of the HS24 and it pretty quickly went into thermal protection. We then measured the voice coils on the HS24 and they measured 1.6 ohms. So then we hooked up each voice coil to a channel of the SP2-8000 and it was fine initially and when we started pushing it, the SP2-8000 went into protection but it gave way more than the IPR-7500.

So if you were comparing the SP2-8000 to the similar IPR-7500, they produce similar power but the SpeakerPower is clearly more powerful when driven hard. Then again, you can buy 2 IPR-7500s and have some left over for the cost of an SP2-8000. One of the reasons I went with SpeakerPower is they have a quiet fan option they can do on their rack mount amps as I didn't feel like modding a brand new pro amp to reduce fan noise. Another option to the IPR 7500 is the Crest ProLite 7.5, which is a sister amp to the Peavey with some beefed up internals like additional capacitance.
My Triax's use the speaker power plate amps. (SP1-4000) I got no complaints.
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post #258 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 08:59 AM
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Well, the 24 has just as much x-max and much bigger. They were not EQ'd so who knows. Still, to even be talking about it means the 24 is a serious woof confirmed by many folks here.
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post #259 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 09:05 AM
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Dgage - For bringing your gear and allowing us to have some fun with the noesis and your ultras. Not to mention the sp2 8000. That is a serious performing amp. I want one... (one little edit for ya, the danleys are sh50's not 60's in your writeup, and we had my 18's on the other couple of movie scenes as pointed out by bosso)

Dammit...I initially wrote SH60 and then realized I had it wrong but I guess I didn't correct it every place.

The SI HS24 may have been the star of the show but your 8 SI18s stole the show. Hands down the best theater experience I've ever had. The feel of the explosions and midbass impact was just phenomenal and crystal clean throughout the spectrum. And it's not like the bass over powered your Danley's they just seamlessly played the content with a little hotness to the bass that really didn't feel put of place. It wasn't ridiculous like you might think when you hear about 8 18" subwoofers...for me it is the new standard.

And speaking of that, on the way home it hit me that I will have as much bass as you soon as I will be adding a pair of UXL-18s to my 3 LMS 5400s. With a suspended floor...it will be jaw dropping for me and I'll be in nirvana. I'll have to have some people over when I get everything done later this fall. And to think...I originally came back to AVS to research a single sub like a Submersive...yeah, I've been indoctrinated. biggrin.gif

And Brandon, thanks so much for hosting us. Definitely a great day with outstanding equipment and even better people. And thanks to everyone that contributed!
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post #260 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 09:13 AM
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looks like it was an awesome time. The 24 looked to be lots of fun! Now that a few guys are buying them, any chance the HT version will make its way out?
Not that I personally would be buying one, with the new price, shipping, taxes and our dollar, it would be 1500$ to get one here..... but you would be pretty hard pressed to buy a LMS over one of them, thats for sure.

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post #261 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 09:27 AM
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N8DOGG, Nick can chime in but when I asked about the HT version, he said this was the only one he was producing in a 24" size. For the size woofer and output, 10 ft^3 really isn't too large of a box. About the only reason I would buy an LMS 5400, which actually applies to my situation, is if I couldn't fit the 10ft^3 box in my room. Even then I'd likely buy the UXL-18 instead, which models within a db or so of the LMS 5400. I'll get to compare the UXL-18 and LMS 5400 head to head soon enough as my pair of UXL-18s will be arriving soon.

My hope is that Stereo Integrity will also bring back some version of the SI HT18, especially since it performed so well in multiples in Beast's room.
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post #262 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Wow, really! The single 24 had more output than dual 5400's? According to displacement it should be the other way around but thank goodness for real events. Maybe I should add some to my rig.

Which is why these gtg events are so beneficial. The endless debating over graphs is needed at times, however people need to get out and experience these drivers first hand before they form an opinion on them.
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post #263 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 10:48 AM
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Sounds like you guys had a ton of fun! I am from NC originally and love the mountains and Lexington BBQ. Just wanted to point out that if you are using a Pro quality driver at concert + levels you may want to use the pro version of the SP2-8000. The big fans push 3X the air of the quieter HT version. You might also consider the SP2-12000 that runs on 240VAC as long as you are running new AC to the theater. Every house has this voltage available, it is usually run to the stove, dryer and AC.
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post #264 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 11:06 AM
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Just reading up and catching up with all the posts. I had an LA G2G on the 5th so I was busy all weekend. Tons of great stuff, impressions and pics! Love it!

Man, I didn't know Bosso was going too. Geez. Wish I could have been there.

Do this again and invite me! tongue.gif

Lol! Seriously. I want to meet you guys and I willing to cross the whole country to do it. redface.gif
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post #265 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 11:06 AM
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To address some of the confusion regarding comparisons, audibility and power:

First, Brandon's room is in a basement that's 100% masonry walls and 50% underground. He enjoys a MUCH lower transmission loss factor than you'll see in most rooms. Sorry we didn't have the time to run a room gain profile because Paul and I were there for just the day and we tried our best to keep out of the way of the auditions of the speakers and subs and amps available, but trust me... Brandon gets to keep the vast majority of sound waves his system generates. I'm envious of that as my room suffers a huge amount of transmission loss on the low end.

If you step out the back door into his back yard and close the door behind you, you'll have no idea of the mayhem happening on the other side of the door. To contrast that, my neighbors 200 feet away, sitting in their living rooms, look at each other, roll their eyes and say "Dave is watching a movie tonight".

That's the 1st point here; instead of pushing the system to get more, the system pushes you with far less input. That's a BIG factor.

Second, When you have a 12 or 13L driver in a room like that pumping 7 Hz transients at reference levels +, it's not "audible", but it's definitely easy to perceive. When <15 Hz events occurred, you saw attendees immediately run to the laptop location asking "What did THAT hit?", "How low was THAT one?" I actually pressed my hand to the concrete slab floor and felt the effects in the slab (contrary to the conventional wisdom on the subject) and I stood on the overbuilt riser and felt even more. Standing near any boundary added around 6dBSPL and the suspended ceiling (and anything not welded or bolted to the structural members) had no chance to offer resistance to vibrations. That goes to the entire house all the way to the attic. I walked around the 1st floor while the demos were going on and the house was in spasm, making sounds that were hard to recognize. I actually feel sorry for folks who claim they can't "hear" those events in music and soundtracks. For me, it's unmistakable and the evidence was that the same holds true for those who rushed to see the SpecLab result.

Soon after SL was up and scrolling, someone asked Paul "What the heck is that, it's all the way down to 1 Hz?" He explained that it was the mic picking up people walking around upstairs and running up and down the basement stairs. It even picks up someone plopping down into one of the seats on the riser. <10 Hz is all around us all the time, just not at the levels we experienced at the meet. It's not audible per se but is perceived by combinations of other senses and its effect on surrounding fixtures. When you bump the levels down there via multiples or different drivers, the perception rises by magnitudes.

If it were the result of THD, the harmonics added would be easily visible in the SL graphs vs the digital versions. The THD from all 3 systems, at the seats, was extremely low to non-existent.

Third, the power required, because of the subject mentioned above in the first point, is far less than what it takes, say, in my room. Again, Paul has a Fluke multi that will measure micro volt peaks and he wanted to test the voltage the drivers were seeing (and amps via Ohm's Law, because of the very low impedances seen by the amps) but, Paul is new to the forums thing and preferred to go with the flow vs stepping in to direct the flow of events. Again, I don't think watts was the problem at all. I think current draw is what shut down the amps with the 1.68 ohms at 4 Hz transients kinda demand that was occurring regularly throughout the demos. The situation with the 24" wired 2 ohms/ch in combination with the source demand was probably asking the amps to pull more than 30 amps from the wall for milliseconds transients... repeatedly, until they just had to go into over current and/or thermal protect. My opinion, FWIW.

Fourth, the few times we heard a clack-like sound, IMO, was not the driver, but the amps choking before protect circuits kicked in. I don't believe the 24 was moving anywhere near its 'clack point'.

Fifth, although Brandon deserves credit for the speed and accuracy with which he threw the 16 cubes box together for the 24 in record time (he's really quite the woodworker, looking at his other various projects), the box was nowhere near built to handle the driver. As a result, a lot of its energy was being sucked out through rather violent vibration on all panels, vs, say, his dual-opposed 18 stacks, which are quite inert in comparison when pounding away.

In the end, take any single driver you know of and hand it over to the GTG maniacs and they'll hand it back to you in a coffin. The 24 not only lived through that experience, it sounded sweet as honey in the process. I explain any and all shortcomings as listed above and have the driver at the bottom of the list of possible reasons. If that don't say it all for the driver, I dunno what will.
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post #266 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Dave,

Would love to have you up again sometime for the gain profile along with any other fun type measurements you would want to do. I love doing measurements and tweaking so it is pretty clear that we could have a pretty fun day just messing around and doing more AV "Science" and then sit back down and enjoy some more of the "AV" part after all is said and done.

I would also have to second the opinion that we didn't see the end of SI's capability and with either of the amps, they were most certainly giving up the goat before we reached the driver's limits. It was apparent when I was able to hear the clack pretty quickly and began to turn down the vol quickly and still hear it a much much lower volumes than we had just been at. Maybe next time speaker power can make a little trip to home-state and bring an sp12000 to play with!!! "wink wink"

Also, anyone attributing THD to what we might be hearing, just needs to come have a listen for themselves biggrin.gif It ain't there....

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post #267 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 11:53 AM
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Beast,

I so want to be there if you ever do something like this again...
Don't know what I'd bring but it'll be something!

Thanks

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post #268 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 11:55 AM
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I'm just getting sadder that I couldn't be there.....

Sounds like there was plenty of measurements too.... and I wouldn't have had to been running them......

next time, definitely next time.
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post #269 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 12:44 PM
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post #270 of 724 Old 04-07-2014, 12:48 PM
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Doesn't sound like that bad of a price. That's four channels of some serious power.

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