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post #1 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all, new adventure here for me. One of the kids that spent the night over this weekend for my sons birthday was picked up by his father, who saw my marty cubes and loved it. When I told him I made it, he said his friend who plays in a band was looking for someone to make cabinets for 6 Faital Pro 18HP1020 subs. It is a spanish band that plays outdoors a lot and some times indoors so he wanted something loud, not necessarily room shaking bass like for theaters. He says he wanted something like a folded horn or even a regular cabinet with 2 18's on it like the JBL cabinet.

He asked if I could build it. I know I can physically build it, but my question is how do I figure out what is the best cabinet for this sub. Also is this sub any good? Do I start by entering the parameters in winisd and select the box type? The it will tell me specs? Any help would be appreciated. I think this is a great opportunity to make some extra cash to get my mains and rears, from Erich.biggrin.gif

Here is some info regarding the sub.

http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=201070110

Technical Parameters
Nominal Impedance 8 Ohm
Minimum Impedance 6.6 Ohm
AES Power Handling (1) 1000 W
Maximum Power Handling (2) 2000 W
Sensitivity (1W/1m) 99 dB
Frequency Range 35÷1600 Hz
Voice Coil Diameter 100 mm (4 in)
Winding Material Cu
Former Material Glass Fiber
Winding Depth 23 mm (0.91 in)
Magnetic Gap Depth 12 mm (0.47 in)
Flux Density 1.3 T
Magnet Neodymium Slug
Basket Material Aluminum
Demodulation No
Cone Surround (3) Triple Roll
NET Air Volume filled by Loudspeaker 6.2 dm^3 (0.219 ft^3)
Spider Profile 2x non-adjacent symmetrical constant height waves

Thiele and small parameters
Fs 35 Hz
Re 5.4 Ohm
Qes 0.28
Qms 9.74
Qts 0.27
Vas 207.2 dm^3 (7.32 ft^3)
Sd 1134 cm^2 (175.77 in^2)
Xmax (4) 9.50 mm
Xdamage (5) 17.5 mm
Mms 182.0 g
Bl 28 N/A
Le 1.7 mH
Mmd 159.5 g
Cms 0.11 mm/N
Rms 4.1 Kg/s
Eta Zero 3.10 %
EBP 125 Hz



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post #2 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:12 PM
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post #3 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I could never do this for a living, way to much to figure out. He was hoping I could make him some of Bill Fitzmaurices Tuba cabinets. I sent Bill an message as to which on would be best for this sub but I honestly don't even know how to tell if this is a good sub or not? I see they are pricy, lowest I found them for was $450. But that doesn't mean its a good sub. Look at the SI subs, cheap price and its a great sub.
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post #4 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:22 PM
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From experience: Moving large cabs gets tiring very quickly; as a result large cabs are often traded for smaller ( though hardly small ) cabs.
That driver is recommended for use in vented ( bass reflex ) cabs ranging from100~250 liter ( 3.5 - 8.8 cu. ft. ).
Fairly Typical for a Pro 18
The range depends on desired tuning/alignment.
It should be modeled.

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post #5 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cessna1466u View Post

Thanks, I could never do this for a living, way to much to figure out. He was hoping I could make him some of Bill Fitzmaurices Tuba cabinets. I sent Bill an message as to which on would be best for this sub but I honestly don't even know how to tell if this is a good sub or not? I see they are pricy, lowest I found them for was $450. But that doesn't mean its a good sub. Look at the SI subs, cheap price and its a great sub.

I don't have the time anymore to do much modelling, but that Faital appears to be a great driver for the job. You wouldn't attempt to run live sound with something like the SI sub at all. wink.gif
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post #6 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WVSyd View Post

From experience: Moving large cabs gets tiring very quickly; as a result large cabs are often traded for smaller ( though hardly small ) cabs.
That driver is recommended for use in vented ( bass reflex ) cabs ranging from100~250 liter ( 3.5 - 8.8 cu. ft. ).
Fairly Typical for a Pro 18
The range depends on desired tuning/alignment.
It should be modeled.

Thank you for the response, stupid question but how where you able to tell that it recommends a vented bass reflex cab and the size? Is it something in specs that tells you that?
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post #7 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Michael, he will be using for live music so that is a good thing. When you say to model it, do you mean as in winisd?
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post #8 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:36 PM
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Yes there are indicators in the listed T/S parameters.
Google searched that driver and picked up bits, BUT no actual builds.

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post #9 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WVSyd View Post

Yes there are indicators in the listed T/S parameters.
Google searched that driver and picked up bits, BUT no actual builds.

Thank you, I will enter the info into winisd and see what I get. I appreciate the help.
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post #10 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:45 PM
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I don't have any modeling software on this machine and haven't used WinISD before but they all use the same parameters the Big 3 are:
Qts. Fs and Vas.
Some programs generate so called "optimum" tuning; for instance BassBox used to produce a .707 Q. alignment.

* BTW I also noticed that some ARE modeling this in horns

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post #11 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:49 PM
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Yes, winISD is a good start. One of the things that I caught was the huge impedance spike, 150 ohms. wink.gif The suspension looks well behaved, no blips in the impedance, other than a small one at 900 hz, and again at 1800 hz or so.

That is a free-air impedance curve, in a ported box you will have two peaks, instead of one. When impedance is high, current through the coil is low... so having nice large impedance peaks is good.
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post #12 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WVSyd View Post

I don't have any modeling software on this machine and haven't used WinISD before but they all use the same parameters the Big 3 are:
Qts. Fs and Vas.
Some programs generate so called "optimum" tuning; for instance BassBox used to produce a .707 Q. alignment.

* BTW I also noticed that some ARE modeling this in horns
Thanks I will head over there and see what they have. Thx
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post #13 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, winISD is a good start. One of the things that I caught was the huge impedance spike, 150 ohms. wink.gif The suspension looks well behaved, no blips in the impedance, other than a small one at 900 hz, and again at 1800 hz or so.

That is a free-air impedance curve, in a ported box you will have two peaks, instead of one. When impedance is high, current through the coil is low... so having nice large impedance peaks is good.

Thanks Michael, they need an emiticon that shows everything going over its head.biggrin.gif I will input this into winisd and see what it says, I will also head over to the horns section and see if they have anything going on with this sub. I really do appreciate all the help, I know I shouldn't be really even messing with this since I don't know enough about it but I figured the best to learn is to get your hands dirty so here I am.biggrin.gif
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Well there is gratification upon completion biggrin.gif.
You will find with sound there is no free lunch....
Before you jump and build a horn OR any large speaker - NOTE the size.
Some even build cardboard approximations and get Volume Shock eek.gif
And the problems of how to get it moved and through doorways and up/down stairs are realized.

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post #15 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I know what you mean, when I built my martycube which is only 24x24x24 I thought, its not that big. That was in the garage, first trying to get it into the house it took both my wife and I to do it and then when placed next to entertainment center I realized how big it actually was. He plans on putting casters on them and handles, he has cabs right now that they use for shows so I assuming he realizes how big these things will be,
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post #16 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 01:44 PM
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AND Horns are even bigger...
Worked with a band that had horns that required 4 guys to move them; it was such a PITA to move them, they got sold.
Though 15's outsell 18's - it's probably due to the fact that big drivers require big cabs.
Pro cabs are often designed as modules that pack and move and stack well.

Did a couple of Q & D calcs and it looks like a 250L cab would have an f3 of 33Hz and f8 of 27Hz
A 150 L cab an f3 of around 40Hz.

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post #17 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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AND Horns are even bigger...
Worked with a band that had horns that required 4 guys to move them; it was such a PITA to move them, they got sold.
Though 15's outsell 18's - it's probably due to the fact that big drivers require big cabs.
Pro cabs are often designed as modules that pack and move and stack well.

Did a couple of Q & D calcs and it looks like a 250L cab would have an f3 of 33Hz and f8 of 27Hz
A 150 L cab an f3 of around 40Hz.

Is that in a vented cabinet or in a horn?
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post #18 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 01:49 PM
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Vented
( Now check the size of a horn wink.gif )

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post #19 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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So almost 9cubic feet per cabinet. That is a little bigger than the marty cubes I have. Not too bad, just have to find the right box style and port size. Again thank you for all the help. I now have something I can go to him with. I know he thinks he needs a folded horn design or the tuba design to be able to get louder sound from these but maybe some cubes with the right ports might work out better for him as far as storage and carrying them around.
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post #20 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 02:08 PM
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Honestly: Loved horns since the 60's, Built many
but like I said no free lunch - to be effective Horns have to be BIG.
Hoffman's Iron Law.
So there are horn plans that use 15's that require 9ft cabs, 16 cu ft cabs even up to 24 cu ft cabs depending upon how loud and low you want.
A horn loaded with an 18 would be even larger - that's why you don't see many plans, not because an 18 is inferior - far from it - it offers Sd advantages.
In comparing a horn to a Reflex cab - consider response flatness and excursion demands as well.
Tuning is like a performance envelope with tradeoffs and compromises.
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post #21 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks, I could never do this for a living, way to much to figure out. He was hoping I could make him some of Bill Fitzmaurices Tuba cabinets. I sent Bill an message as to which on would be best for this sub but I honestly don't even know how to tell if this is a good sub or not? I see they are pricy, lowest I found them for was $450.
I don't do PMs, even on my own forum, I simply don't have time to answer them. Tubas don't take eighteens in any event, so that answers that question. The entire point of horns is that they don't need to use large expensive drivers. Direct radiators use large expensive drivers because they have to.

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post #22 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I don't do PMs, even on my own forum, I simply don't have time to answer them. Tubas don't take eighteens in any event, so that answers that question. The entire point of horns is that they don't need to use large expensive drivers. Direct radiators use large expensive drivers because they have to.

Thank you Bill, didn't know about the pms. So in this case him using the 18 for tubas its not going to happen. For horns they are probably too big and the size would make it not practical for something they will be moving around. So its starting to look like a standard ported cabinet might be the best thing? In your opinion is this a good driver for what he plans to use it for? Or should try and sell them and get something more better suited for this kind of live music?
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Sounds like you are determined to build a horn... Good luck.

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post #24 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like you are determined to build a horn... Good luck.

Oh, no, no. no. I would much rather build a simple porter cabinet for this guy. I know nothing about horns or cabinet building. His initial request was for a horn type of speaker because he heard they where better for live sound. I told him I would look into it. I have seen a few of the folded horn builds on these threads and eventhough I have some woodworking experience, those scare me. eek.gif I would much rather build him a standard ported sub.
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post #25 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 04:31 PM
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Thank you Bill, didn't know about the pms. So in this case him using the 18 for tubas its not going to happen. For horns they are probably too big and the size would make it not practical for something they will be moving around. So its starting to look like a standard ported cabinet might be the best thing? In your opinion is this a good driver for what he plans to use it for? Or should try and sell them and get something more better suited for this kind of live music?
IMO if he has them he might as well use them. If the question was 'should I get these' I'd have said no. Horns are big, but not the least bit unportable, you just need something large enough to haul them in.
Don Keele addressed the matter of horns versus direct radiators 30 odd years ago, and his advise is still accurate today. If you have more money than pack space, go direct radiator. If you have more pack space than money, go horn.

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post #26 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
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Don Keele addressed the matter of horns versus direct radiators 30 odd years ago, and his advise is still accurate today. ....
From
"An Efficiency Constant Comparison Between Low-Frequency Horns and Direct-Radiators," Presented at the 54th Convention of the Audio Engineering Society, Preprint No. 1127 (M-1), (May 1976).

"Evaluation of the efficiency constant for exponential horns reveals that the horn is quite wasteful in its use of enclosed volume when compared to direct-radiator systems. The main advantage of horns lies in the realizability of rather high efficiencies in the 10% to 40% range which is beyond the capabilities of most direct radiators. Use of direct radiators in arrays increases the low frequency efficiency but not without a decrease of high frequency bandwidth."

http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20(1976-05%20AES%20Preprint)%20-%20Efficiency,%20Horns%20vs%20DR.pdf
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post #27 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 08:27 PM
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For Spanish music, you don't need to dig very low, so a higher tune / smaller cabinet is probably appropriate. If you'll have fixed EQ in the system, then you can really take advantage of the port reduction on diaphragm motion and go even smaller without giving up max spl.

I'm personally a big fan of the manifold designs that cancel driver momentum. The EV MTL-4 is a pretty sick cabinet that you should compare notes with.

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post #28 of 55 Old 03-30-2014, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow those EV MTL-4 are impressive looking cabinets. Probably more than I want to get into with this guys. I dont know what his eq is like, I need to talk to talk to him tomorrow to find out what the rest of his system consists of.
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post #29 of 55 Old 03-31-2014, 05:20 AM
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Wow those EV MTL-4 are impressive looking cabinets.
Perhaps, until you look at the SPL chart. F3 is 45Hz, hardly justifying such a large and ridiculously heavy box. With the limited LF content of live music circa 1986 they made some sense back then, but not so much today. Plus the cab was designed around the limited capabilities of 1986 era drivers, there's no need to settle for that today.

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post #30 of 55 Old 03-31-2014, 06:09 AM
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cessna1466u:
This is some material used @ Purdue
https://engineering.purdue.edu/ece103/LectureNotes/SRS_Loudspeaker_Parameters.pdf

Speaker Tuning involves a lot of consideration:
See page 22 for instance

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