Doug's TD12m - SEOS12/DNA-360 LCR build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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There have been a few of these designs done, but I will be doing something a little different with the mounting of drivers and ports. All parts are here or on the way. My drivers ship today from AE. I will be building each as a tall single unit with the SEOS at 33" and using round ports. I'm not a fan of slot ports for some reason, so round it is. The bracing will be tricky with fitting the ports in the front and making a turn up to fit in the box. The plan (for now) is to have curved sides with a maple veneer, and a shaped MDF baffle with a smooth transition to the waveguide using Bondo or whatever is decided to be best. I'm going to build some junky boxes for testing and listening first so I can have the patience to do these right. I am also going to polish the phase plugs to a gloss finish instead of having the brushed look.

These will be used in my media room, which is almost finished. Other gear is Onkyo 818, dual ceiling mounted, clone powered Gjallarhorns, and 6 of the DIYSG ported V-8 for surrounds using front heights. I have an SDX 15 I might use for some nearfield filler, but we'll see if I need it. I'm going to admit now that this room is going to be a nightmare with reflections. I'm lucky this much beef was approved by the authorities as this is the main room of our home. These 3 speakers will be the centerpiece at the front of the room and the only audio gear visible, so I have to make them nice. I call this my Ninja Sound den, because of the wicked-sneaky sound.

Robotbunny and John at AE have been kind enough to field many questions of mine via PM and email, but thought we could move all my questions here so other people can benefit from the knowledge of the guys who have build this design. Hopefully they, and other veterans of this design, will drop by and provide some input

Almost complete...

Some questions:

-1 cubic foot for the TD12m?
- tune at 60hz?
- two 4" x 16" ports? Can I use something smaller, like 3"?

I would like to be able to cross these at 60 for music, is that possible?


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Last edited by d_c; 08-30-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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post #2 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 08:21 AM
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Hey d_c, glad to see you're doing a build log. I will be following along (and stealing your sneaky ninja ideas tongue.gif ).

Unless I'm looking at something wrong, seems to me the M likes 80L and 50hz tune. The lower tuning is a good thing in your case, but why only 1cuft.? Can you get 2.5cuft in your spot? Or does that violate the authorities law?

EDIT 80L? Tux is an idiot.
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post #3 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 08:36 AM
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I will be watching your build. I have been sitting on my ae td12m drivers for an embarrassing amount of time. I really am set on going with John's DIY td12m minidsp kit. He first dropped a little teaser about back in October. Hopefully we see something soon. Good luck on your build.


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post #4 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post


Unless I'm looking at something wrong, seems to me the M likes 80L and 50hz tune...

Can you get 2.5cuft in your spot? Or does that violate the authorities law?

I don't know Tux. I was hoping to understand winisd better by now to be able to figure it out, but I don't trust myself with this kind of dough wrapped up in this build. I would prefer a lower tune in a larger enclosure if it works without bottoming out the driver when I upgrade power to the lcr in the future.

I can use a finished height of 42", "20 deep, but need to keep the baffle width the same to stay in sync with Bwaslo's xo design. I will adjust the curve to match the net volume. I have a false bottom planned if it's a 1 cube to get the height up and to give the ports room. I can rearrange it however to get the larger volume if that would be best.


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post #5 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_B View Post

I really am set on going with John's DIY td12m minidsp kit. He first dropped a little teaser about back in October.

He mentioned sharing his MiniDSP settings and design if you choose to go that route, but he is using a different CD with the SEOS.


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post #6 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 09:28 AM
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100hz seems to be the xmax problem area for the 12M no matter what tuning you go with. So as you add power, you're going to have to raise your XO. Doesn't really seem to matter if it's 100 or 25L or 45 or 80hz tuning. 300 watts will push that guy just over xmax. Now, maybe that's acceptable to you. A little over the limit probably isn't such a big deal. In that case I'd go 80L and 50hz tune personally.

What has John and Robotbunny said about it?

EDIT - disregard these statements, I'm an idiot.
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post #7 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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This was from Robotbunny -
It might be a good idea to re-evaluate such a large volume and low tuning for this particular driver. Some points to consider, since the tuning is less than one octave below the drivers free air resonance there will be a rather nasty dip in the transfer function. The driver will also suffer from over excursion with very little input power (max of 180 watts), reaching ~5.9mm at ~61Hz. Port resonance/port air velocity is an issue as well with one 4" port exceeding ~29m/s @ 2kHz.



Anyway, the larger the enclosure, the less of an air spring the port has at protecting the driver. I wouldn't go any larger than 1.25 with a port tuning of 50Hz. Even then you're right at the upper limit of cone excursion with 300watts if you wanted to upgrade your amplification in the future.

1 ft^3 tuned to 60Hz (two 4" x 16" ports (precision ports come 17") gives the best overall performance. F3 75Hz. 400 watts gives you 120dB at 80Hz...


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post #8 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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From AE - this was when I was wanting to do an mtm. His comments are regarding 2 cubes per driver.

...If you plan to go passive crossovers, running them off the Onkyo 818, then I would just go with 2x TD12M. This will give you the most efficiency to work with the 135W/channel on that amp. If you go 4 cubic foot for the pair of TD12M, tuned about 45hz, you get some good efficiency. You can get upwards of 120dB. You are only using about 2.5mm of the 6mm Xmax, so you can alway put more power in later without issues to get more output.


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post #9 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I should mention also that this room is 14x20', so might not add additional power at all.


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post #10 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 10:22 AM
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I'm an idiot.


I know I know... tell us something we didn't already know biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 10:35 AM
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So you're the one delaying my TD12m's...just kidding.

It's been a while since I modeled it so I may be wrong but I thought I remembered it staying under xmax and looking pretty good with 300w and 1.5-1.75 cubit feet, 58ish hz tune. I wanna say that was using 2- 2.8" ports. I know that's a weird size but I was modeling for port area and not a round ports per se.

Obviously I'm planning a seos12/360/td12m build when my drivers get here and am interested in music/crossing to subs at 60 if it's feasible.
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post #12 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 11:05 AM
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Tux, just to clarify your suggestion is 80L/50hz which is about 2.75 ft^3, right?
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post #13 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 11:06 AM
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yup

If no plans to upgrade the power, I'd personally go 100L and 45hz wink.gif

EDIT - Bad idea, don't listen to me.
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post #14 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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So if using round ports, what would be the length for 45hz tuning? And if I did uprgrade power to 250-300w, I would just need to eq at 100 to limit over excursion?


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post #15 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 03:34 PM
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The length depends on the volume. And the requirement to eq depends on the subwoofer crossover and your willingness to exceed xmax.
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post #16 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The length depends on the volume. And the requirement to eq depends on the subwoofer crossover and your willingness to exceed xmax.

45hz and 2.75 cubes


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post #17 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 04:35 PM
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AAAHHHHHH F$%K. I had TWO drivers in my unibox model that I saved previously. Ignore all the stupid dip s34t advice I gave you. At least the excursions were right rolleyes.gif

For the same thing, go 40L tuned to 45hz with these ports.


2 - 3" ports that are 26.3cm long.

2 - 4" ports that are 49.5cm long.

I'd go with the 3" ports I think. They're enough, and a reasonable length. But who know if I can be trusted rolleyes.gif
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post #18 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 04:55 PM
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That sounds more like it.
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post #19 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Mail me your man card: I'm ripping a corner off wink.gif. You could have said they would be great in 5 cubes and I would have believed you!

That makes sense as the size was quite a bit different from my previous plans. Mdf is cheap, so I might try a couple of different forms and compare them with Robotbunny's. I like the side by side listening test along with the measured test. I don't always like the most ideal measurement. I figured that out messing with the hf in the V8 project.

I would like to have some strong content from these in the 60-80 hz since the Gjallarhorns are known to cause issues there.


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post #20 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 05:30 PM
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Haha, ya, I deserve that!

The bigger the cab the more output you'll get in that region. At the expense of some excursion. Building some test cabs is a good idea. I'd normally do that, I'm rolling the dice on my speakers right now biggrin.gif
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post #21 of 92 Old 04-03-2014, 06:06 PM
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Great to see your thread DC.smile.gif


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post #22 of 92 Old 04-04-2014, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm drawing out some cabs using the 45hz tune and 1.41 cubic feet, using either two 10.35" 3" ports or two 19.49" 4" ports per the Tux recommendation: Is there an advantage with one size port over the other?

Also, does your model above change now that the enclosure is with 40 litres instead of 80 and one driver instead of two, Tux?



I'm happy to have a build thread too, Chrapladm! I haven't had any speakers to build in almost 2 months...

I'm thinking this shape for the "test" cabs. They were fun to put together:



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post #23 of 92 Old 04-04-2014, 11:33 PM
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They look very professional.


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post #24 of 92 Old 04-05-2014, 12:16 AM
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so these guys need to cross to the gjallerhorns?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #25 of 92 Old 04-05-2014, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

so these guys need to cross to the gjallerhorns?

Yes, my first measurements with only the G-horns didn't give me any of the issues in the 50-80 range, but that was before the room was finished with drywall. So there could be issues once the room is finished and I get all my gear moved back in.
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They look very professional.

Thanks! I built those for my pops.


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post #26 of 92 Old 04-07-2014, 08:11 AM
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Hey Doug. You've got some very good advise from Tux. Not sure why I was modelling at 60Hz??? Mine are tuned to 50Hz and between 45Hz and 50Hz tunings, you have a little less than 3dB more at 60Hz. If you're crossing at 60Hz to the g-horns, I'm not sure you'd really need the extra extension down lower, but the more the merrier. smile.gif Can't wait to hear the whole system!

-Nate


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post #27 of 92 Old 04-07-2014, 08:23 AM
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robotbunny, not sure if you caught it but I made a booboo tongue.gif I'm now saying 40L tuned to 45 or 50hz. 60hz tuning isn't a bad idea either if Doug wanted to keep excursion down... but bring the tuning closer to the XO.

smile.gif
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post #28 of 92 Old 04-07-2014, 08:30 AM
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Tux, I think I remember John recommending to tune an octave below the intended crossover region. I will see if I can find it. Slow going as I am cell bound for a bit.
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post #29 of 92 Old 04-07-2014, 08:32 AM
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I generally agree that keeping tuning away from the XO is good practice, but a full octave is difficult. I would think 60hz is the closest I'd go for an 80hz. So ya, I agree with you, but getting 40hz tuning for an 80hz XO isn't always easy. I would be interested in what he has to say on it though if you find the post smile.gif
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post #30 of 92 Old 04-07-2014, 08:37 AM
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I just found it, I was wrong, it was a 1/2 octave. Sorry about that. smile.gif it is on the first page of my build. I have no idea how to copy/paste or link using my phone though.
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