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post #1 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Everyone,

So I have been reading some old and new threads about getting better bass... mid bass to be exact.

Using this as a reference - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1281387/what-is-mid-bass-range#post_19296365

I have been thinking about DIY solutions for increasing/supplement my mid to upper bass - ideally the 50-250Hz range. See about getting more of that 'punch' everyone talks about.
I am pretty happy with sub 50Hz although I do plan on getting one or two more 18's as I am still not getting a WOW effect on the Irene or HTTYD scenes... (problem for another day)

Background
Got a 9.x setup.
AVR is only powering front L+R
2x external amps powering remaining speakers.
3x Subs - Paradigm Sub15, DIY 230L DO Dayton RSS460-18, DIY DO LMS-R 15 (DIY Clone powered)

Current Xover on AVR
60 for Front and Rear (I have full towers)
80 for the rest

I don't have a lot of space left and would ideally like to locate the units next to the respective front L/R speakers. 17L net should be an easy fit and the Inuke DSP can easily handle the HPF and LPF.
Did some research and thinking and came up with this idea....



The Dayton 10" seems to be the perfect fit but would like some input on weather it will provide a substantial improvement.




My concerns

How directional is the 50-250Hz range as some threads mention locally the units as close at possible to the MLP?

Any other suggestions that I should possibly look at?
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post #2 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 10:42 AM
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As long as you'll have full ability to measure and time align the midbass modules, to both the mains and the subs, this would likely offer significant improvement.

In the meantime, some simple experimentation with your current subs, located up near your mains ... and carefully adjusted and blended with regard to time alignment

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post #3 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 10:44 AM
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Cont.
Would be an interesting experiment.

Also, be mindful bass trapping and overall room decay measurements are a key components to tight, visceral, punchy bass.

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post #4 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 11:09 AM
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my guess is your problem is simply not enough rig for the gig. your mid-bass is a low sensitivity 8" driver running off an avr, so you are probably 20db short of target. an ultimax 10" probably isn't the best choice for a mid-bass unit. a pair of high sensitivity 12's or a 15 or even an 18 would be a much better option, powered with an external amp even better. room modes and decay are something to consider as well. not that the ultimax 10" couldn't do it, just that you'd need more than 1 or 2.
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post #5 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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My AVR with only two channels actually performs pretty good all things considered. It certainly can provide more power than the front speakers could handle.
I hooked up the front L/R to my Rotel 1575 and up to reference volume I doubt in a double blind I could tell the difference. At 91db they are pretty sensitive.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/rx-a3000/rx-a3000-measurements-cont

I actually have some acoustic panels up but have 50 50mm high density sheets in the garage that are waiting to become new panels and corner super chunks.

FOH
- I just don't have the real estate to locate the subs on the front stage any where near the front L/R due to their size.

LTD
- Can you please recommend some high sensitivity 12'' that I should be looking at? I am pretty certain that 15'' will be just too big for my current space.

It is a little busy but here is my room layout. The front right actually has a wall mounted cabinet that run from the floor to about 2m. Need access to it so can't place anything in that corner.

I'm looking at placing two small towers each side of the TV cabinet. They would rest between the front L/R and the cabinet essentially.

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post #6 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 03:39 PM
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there are many that would work. kind of depends on how much power you have, how much money you have, and how much spl you want.

ae speakers td12h would be good. a pair in 2.75 cf tuned to 43hz and powered with 1000 watts would get you about 125 db or so. you won't actually play it that loud, but having that is reserve means the lower spl won't be compressed, clipped, and/or distorted.



with a pair of those or similar per side and properly powered, the considerations that remain would include minimizing the room screwing up the bass from modes and/or reflection, and time alignment with the other gear.

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post #7 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 04:01 PM
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if that is too much money, a pair of eminence defnimax 12ho in 3 c.f. tuned to around 45hz gives quite similar frequency response across your range of interest.

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post #8 of 33 Old 04-03-2014, 11:28 PM
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You guys mention time alignment. If i have a 5.2system how do I check/know if it's aligned properly now ? Rew measurements ?
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post #9 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 05:34 AM
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Chal, I would guess they are talking about something like Audyssey. My speakers are physically about 12 feet from my LP. My FrontL speaker is set by Audyssey to about 12, the FrontR to 12.5. The sub is in the corner another 2 ft away, and it is set to 25 feet. I assume that is all about time alignment.

I just realized, if you didn't have an AVR which could control all that, how would you time align your speakers if you just had a pre-amp and separate amplifiers? I'm still living in the 20th century with my thinking about audio. rolleyes.gif

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post #10 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 07:50 AM
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I can set speaker distances with preamp. My sub is 11 feet away so shouldn't I put 11 feet for the distance?
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post #11 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 11:30 AM
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"You guys mention time alignment. If i have a 5.2system how do I check/know if it's aligned properly now ? Rew measurements ?"

if the subs are located next to the speakers, just flip the polarity on the speaker. adjust the distance setting until the suckout cancellation is maximized. then flip the polarity back. if you are adding a little bit of delay to the mains, you are probably on the right cycle. if you are adding something like 20 feet, then you are probably aligning the waves, but are one full cycle off.

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post #12 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 11:36 AM
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donny,

here is an article that describes the process on page 3:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/how_to_get_loudspeaker_drivers_in_sync/

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post #13 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

I just realized, if you didn't have an AVR which could control all that, how would you time align your speakers if you just had a pre-amp and separate amplifiers? I'm still living in the 20th century with my thinking about audio. rolleyes.gif

 

You would physically alter the distance between yourself and the speakers such that the waves arrived at the right time. You could theoretically also run some *really* long cables, but given the difference in the speed of light vs the speed of sound, moving the speakers would be way more effective.

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post #14 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"You guys mention time alignment. If i have a 5.2system how do I check/know if it's aligned properly now ? Rew measurements ?"

if the subs are located next to the speakers, just flip the polarity on the speaker. adjust the distance setting until the suckout cancellation is maximized. then flip the polarity back. if you are adding a little bit of delay to the mains, you are probably on the right cycle. if you are adding something like 20 feet, then you are probably aligning the waves, but are one full cycle off.

ok so minions are my fronts right now on top of the martycubes. So I switch polarity on minions, adjust the distance from its current setting of 11' and go up. To hear this suckout cancellation I play pink noise and measure spl ? . Will sound spl go down as I increase the distance, then bottom out and then rise ? I want to set my mains so there at the bottom of that cycle ?

I read the article but pretty technical for me.

Sorry for off topic a bit of the thread but I am sure a few people are in the dark like me.smile.gif
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post #15 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 12:25 PM
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11 feet sounds like a lot of delay. I'd start at about 2 feet and increase from there.

yes. run a sweep. increase the distance by a fraction each time. when the sound is perfectly out of phase, it will almost completely cancel out at the crossover frequency. then it will begin to rise again when more distance is added. the target is the worst null, which occurs at 180 degrees out of alignment or perfect "misalignment" if you will. once that is hit, flip the polarity on the mains back to normal, the suckout will completely disappear and the mains/subs will be perfectly aligned.

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post #16 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 01:55 PM
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Chalugadp, time/signal alignment ...

Yeah LTD02 is right, the null method, the article details, etc., good stuff.

Audyssey does this, and Audyssey is fantastic, however it is mistake prone often setting the time alignment (distance settings) somewhat less than ideal.

So, the savvy approach may include some manual setting of distances confirmed via measurements ... to achieve ideal coherent response through the region.

That said, once positive acoustic summation is established, and the above alignment is achieved, one can begin to meddle with settings, away from the theoretical ideal ... for even greater smoothing. One such example, by adjustment of low pass filtering of the subs, the acoustic blend is manipulated and additional smoothing can result.

It's an iterative process, often tedious, over and over, checking the result each time. All aspects are interdependent, so constant re-checking of the response is beneficial.

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post #17 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

11 feet sounds like a lot of delay. I'd start at about 2 feet and increase from there.

yes. run a sweep. increase the distance by a fraction each time. when the sound is perfectly out of phase, it will almost completely cancel out at the crossover frequency. then it will begin to rise again when more distance is added. the target is the worst null, which occurs at 180 degrees out of alignment or perfect "misalignment" if you will. once that is hit, flip the polarity on the mains back to normal, the suckout will completely disappear and the mains/subs will be perfectly aligned.

When I say 11' I am in the speaker distance setting of my umc200 preamp. Is speaker distance and delay the same thing. I always thought you just used a tape measure from the actual speaker to the lp. I will put the mains to 2' speaker distance and go from there.

FOH

you mentioned low pass filtering can improve smoothness of subs. Is that lowering the crossover point or changing the slope ?
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post #18 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 02:41 PM
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I don't like the OP's original idea.

Looking at the measurements at Stereocrock and the description of the construction, the Q900 is a very screwy design. Kal also describes it as a bit lightweight sounding and the measurements seem to back that up.

Here's what I'd do*.
Line out from the L/R to a DSP xover. High side to a power amp to the coax. Use the biwire terminals (finally something useful for them to do) to short out the LF driver.
Low side to a poweramp then to a TD12/15 sealed placed immediately adjacent to the Q900's. Cross at least LR4 and probably somewhere around 2-300Hz. EQ as necessary. Run to 60-80Hz then hand off to the subs. The bass management in the AVR should be sufficient for this.





* That's actually version 2. Version 1 would involve going 3 way active with the KEF coax and a TD15 sealed below it, all in one new cab. Steeply cross between the MF and HF and notch out the resonances in the MF driver and run it as a proper 3 way keeping any LF out of the MF driver, a must with a coax in my experience.
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post #19 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 05:08 PM
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that's awesome alpha niner, i actually wrote something very similar...then deleted it figuring it might not be taken the right way. :-)

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post #20 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 05:10 PM
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"Is speaker distance and delay the same thing."

yeah...through the speed of sound.

1ms correlates to roughly 1 foot.

delay can be spec'd in either feet or milliseconds, but its the same thing.

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post #21 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Is speaker distance and delay the same thing.
This may help:
http://mixguides.com/studiodesign/basics/understanding-phase-sound-1001/

10ms/100hz/11.27' biggrin.gif

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post #22 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 05:48 PM
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What I am having trouble grasping with regards to time alignment of a 5.x or 7.x or 9.x system is how to know when you have a suck out cancellation and when and how do you know that suck out cancellation is at Max? Can this be done with an SPL meter, or do you need a measurement setup & REW?

I actually have some measurement gear and have had it for a while , but, I never could figure out how to set it up. My computer does not have HDMI, and my I am forced to use a mic-pre-amp and all that jazz. I have never been able to figure out setup , so I guess I will wait until I get a USB mic. & computer with HDMI out .
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post #23 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

What I am having trouble grasping with regards to time alignment of a 5.x or 7.x or 9.x system is how to know when you have a suck out cancellation and when and how do you know that suck out cancellation is at Max? Can this be done with an SPL meter, or do you need a measurement setup & REW?

I actually have some measurement gear and have had it for a while , but, I never could figure out how to set it up. My computer does not have HDMI, and my I am forced to use a mic-pre-amp and all that jazz. I have never been able to figure out setup , so I guess I will wait until I get a USB mic. & computer with HDMI out .

Iam just going to use my spl meter, start at 2' for mains and measure. THen move 6" out in distance and measure. THe spl will go down for a few feet, bottom and then go back up. At that bottom point is where I want my delay or feet distance. THen I put wires back to normal polarity. I think thats what to do. I will try tomorrow when family is out. tongue.gif
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post #24 of 33 Old 04-04-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

that's awesome alpha niner, i actually wrote something very similar...then deleted it figuring it might not be taken the right way. :-)
I calls 'em as I sees 'em. The OP can then do with the suggestion whatever he sees fit. Hopefully it will bring on a rethink on his part.

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post #25 of 33 Old 04-05-2014, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Iam just going to use my spl meter, start at 2' for mains and measure. THen move 6" out in distance and measure. THe spl will go down for a few feet, bottom and then go back up. At that bottom point is where I want my delay or feet distance. THen I put wires back to normal polarity. I think thats what to do. I will try tomorrow when family is out. tongue.gif

So you mean that you are starting 2 feet in the distance settings in your AVR and will measure the SPL with your meter, then move your self & the meter 6 inches and measure again. I am confused.

Can someone please post up a how to on the proper way to find the maximum cancellation spot and how to fix the Suck out. I don't understand how to know if you have a sickout, and how to experiment with things to improve it. Can this be done with an SPL meter? Or do you need measurement gear? Please someone tell me how to do this
Because the above doesn't make any spence to me.
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post #26 of 33 Old 04-05-2014, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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A9X,

Definitely thinking along various new lines....

With your option 2 what impact would the passive xover have on the coax driver post DSP?

Either way you reckon I should get something like the minidsp 2x4 http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4 and a 4 channel amp (nu4-6000)
As much as I would like to investigate this option further.... If you add up the cost of the minidsp ($120), nu4-6000 ($350) and two AE 15tdH (2x $329)
At the total cost of this solution I might as well look at getting new LCR speakers that I can run off my existing amps.
Must admit finding it pretty hard to justify dropping over $1100 to get some more mid bass.

My solution might not be elegant or ideal but the ROI is surely higher.... diminishing returns and all that for small percentage increase.

inuke3000 dsp $ 280
definimax 4012ho 2x $215

At $710 this is already an investment for me. Just hoping that it gets me to 90% plus of what I am looking.
If not then I suppose I could go to phase 2 - get a 6000DSP for the LF and redeploy the 3kDSP to HF (including new box for coax)

You say you don't like my solution but can you please elaborate further why?
Technically what are the caveats that you feel would stop me front get a few additional dB in the 50-250Hz with my admittedly 'less-than-ideal' solution?

Thanks for taking time to respond.
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post #27 of 33 Old 04-05-2014, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Marty,

I must admit I too have had some difficulty following the 'find-and-cancel' instructions.

This is how I understand it.

Reverse the + and - wires on the back of the main speakers.
Go into AVR/Pre-amp setup
Set distance of mains to lowest setting
Play test tone
Using AVR/Pre-Amp 'distance' option increase slowly while making notes of the SPL registered at MLP.
The lowest recorded is the correct 'distance' option.

Set that as the mains 'distance' and move main speakers back to normal.

Pretty sure someone will jump in if I am incorrect.
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post #28 of 33 Old 04-05-2014, 09:39 AM
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marty, the changes in distance are made in the avr not in where you and the mic are located.

this article explains the theory and the process:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/how_to_get_loudspeaker_drivers_in_sync/P1/

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post #29 of 33 Old 04-05-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

FOH

you mentioned low pass filtering can improve smoothness of subs. Is that lowering the crossover point or changing the slope ?

All the above, anything you do that impacts the acoustic summation, impacts the FR.
Just pointing out, it's helpful to be mindful that as another tool (however more of a "icing on the cake" step), for optimization of the blend, adjustment of the filtering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

keeping any LF out of the MF driver, a must with a coax in my experience.

Big excursions certainly can be an problematic with a coax design.
My LCRs are coaxial, but, as you pointed out, they too take advantage of a high pass and other design attributes cooked in, to mitigate potential negative effects of the MF/HF being modulated. Anyway, valid point, but there are workarounds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuno C View Post

Definitely thinking along various new lines....

............. At the total cost of this solution I might as well look at getting new LCR speakers that I can run off my existing amps.
Must admit finding it pretty hard to justify dropping over $1100 to get some more mid bass.

New LCRs, is this a current option? It seems your problem is consistent with a lot of systems I see ... even though many have these highly capable sub systems, the lower range of the mains really can't offer the low distortion impact commensurate with their sub system.

I remember first seeing the Kef Q900, it really looked appealing, especially for the price. But upon discovering two of the apparent drive units were passive radiators, was a disappointment. I'm guessing the appearance of all that radiating area sells a lot of loudspeakers. I know they really have something in that coax ... good stuff. That said, a single hifi 8" may be a bit anemic ... when tasked with the LF of a bass managed LCR system in most rooms, attempting to elicit a big and impactful experience.

For context, I've had multiple 8" HiFi LCRs (still own them), in my system. I've had pro 8" high sens/high output LCRs (still have them too). Currently, my LCRs have somewhat like what A9X suggested, ie., B&C 8" coax, supported by AE-TD12"s, w/sub system. Although I love the coaxial approach, there are many ways toward well executed MF/HF. However, the AE/TD mid-bass drivers, can't be beat ... at any price.

Thanks, good luck

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post #30 of 33 Old 04-05-2014, 07:48 PM
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I did the testing today . The distances of my front stage changed from 11' which is the measured distance from the lp. The new distance/delay setting is 6'6"-7' for all three.

What I noticed is when watching a movie the dialogue is easier to understand. Seems just a little clearer. Is this possible from the delay adjustments or am I off base?

Also every review of avr/preamp always talks about audyssey or ypao being accurate based on the distance measurement from speaker to listener. After calibration the reviewer manual changes the measurement if it's not the actual physical measurement.
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