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post #1 of 17 Old 04-07-2014, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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At the suggestion of ShadyJ, I'm starting a thread here to get some opinions about a sound system for an Art House Cinema that I work for The budget for the whole sound system is less than $1600. Less is better. We don't need new surrounds.

The dimensions of the room are...

69.6 ft x 17.2 ft x 13.8 ft

The ceiling is 13.8 ft high. Currently, only a curtain separates the screening room from the lobby. There is a stage behind the screen because it is also a play house. The seating area is actually only 11 x 20.

Here is what I was thinking...

Okay, what about this for the left right and center....

http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-b212xl-eurolive-12-2-way-pa-speaker-system--248-6476

$160 * 3 = $480

A new 145 W X 5 receiver...

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-5-2-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver/dp/B00GL94S5M/ref=sr_1_44?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1396842573&sr=1-44&keywords=home+theater+receiver

$250

subwoofer driver 17.5 ft^3 tuned to 33.5 Hz

http://www.parts-express.com/prv-audio-18sw2500-18-high-power-pro-audio-subwoofer-8-ohm--294-2754

$290

Subwoofer amplifier with maybe a fourth order high-pass filter set at 30 hz
http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu1000dsp-inuke-1000-watt-power-amplifier-with-dsp--248-6702

$200

Plus about $175 for materials to build the subwoofer enclosure,

$1400 total.

Would this work?
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post #2 of 17 Old 04-07-2014, 06:02 PM
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I think the Behringer's are a cost effective way to put plenty of sound across the front stage. Just make sure that your existing surrounds can keep up. You may be able to do a touch better with one of the DIY sound group offerings, but you would have to finish the enclosures (unless they are being hidden behind the screen, in which case that would not matter). For the sub, I think you could get a driver that would go a bit lower for around the same price (maybe one of the offerings from dayton). Also, if size is not a consideration (and you are handy) you may want to consider a folded horn for the sub which would give you great output down pretty low. The receiver seems good and everyone here loves the inuke's so you are probably good with those. Good luck with the theater!
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post #3 of 17 Old 04-07-2014, 07:34 PM
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I have no experience with those behringer speakers but they are priced cheap enough to try out.
For the sub I would absolutely go with perhaps a pair of horn subs. Perhaps lilmikes f20 or my infinity horn sub. My 18hz horn can use a $60 sub driver. Build 2 of those for excellent bass for the price. They would go great with the Inuke with its low pass filter.
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post #4 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 06:56 AM
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The speakers aren't a good match for that receiver. While they might say 145x5 W...you will be lucky to get 200W RMS total out of that AVR. Therefore, you are buying speaker that really can't be used. In short, I think you will land up turning up the volume to the point of distortion in that sized viewing area. Maybe not though. Not 100% sure on this since it is application dependent.

The sub makes me concerned as well. While is is 99 dB sensitive with higher power, its limited XMAX is really going limit your max SPL for such a large room. It really feels geared towards a car with a small sealed enclosure. Something like the marty sub with a SI style driver is going blow it out of the water. But if you really need to stretch your dollar, a horn is optimal most for SPL per dollar but also takes up the most room. As a FYI...bass isn't as "directional" as higher frequencies. Therefore, the smaller area you listed isn't 100% appropriate...only fractionally.

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #5 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 07:16 AM
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From the brief description: It would appear this application is being approached as if it were a home...
Withe the narrow width and near 70 foot depth - a distributed approach would make sense

"Beware of Salesmen: They are the modern Svengali, immune to Science and Reality"
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post #6 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 08:55 AM
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I thought I had a tough room!

 

I am way, way less knowledgeable than anyone else on this forum (so if someone corrects me, listen to them, not me!), but I'd like to add a vote for the horn-sub idea, based on personal experience.  Further, if you don't want to build/deal with a refrigerator-sized design, take a look at the Lilmike Cinema T-6, or, if you're not handy / don't want to build a complex cabinet yourself, the Anarchy woofer and tapped horn flat-pack at DIY Sound Group.  That is a -really- interesting bit of subwooferage!

 

You could get two for not much more than just the sub driver you picked out.   (Or, better yet, spring for 4... or more... or add on as time / money allow!)  They're about the size of a small bookcase, and could be pretty easy to hide / blend into the background.  From what I understand, the more you have, the less important placement becomes, so you could tuck one by a bar, one under the screen, one in a corner, one by the coat rack, etc.  Better still than just the amount of bass you get for the buck, the CNC kit makes assembly -trivial-, by all accounts.

 

My DIY T-6 (bigger than the Anarchy, but similar design and still not invasively big) *easily* creates noticeable deep sound in my 34x24x10 + open-end-to-house room, while tucked away in a far corner.  No, you don't "feel" blasts of bass as if sitting in an over-bass'ed car (or, I bet, any of the wonderful, enviable, dedicated theaters belonging to members of this forum), but you hear a lot more of what was recorded than the 12" cheapo ported it replaced, and plenty to have people mention how good it is (sometimes taking the form of, "can you turn down the bass?" during movies... proper response:  "Nope.  Lost the remote." : ) ).  Very impressive for the price and size.

 

Best, since you're on a tight budget (like me!), the power requirements are low -- you could probably drive 4 (or more?) of the Anarchies off that amp, too.  (In fact, I really wish there was a ~$75-100 iNuke+DSP with less power for amps like these and/or sensitive speakers, but I may be the only member of the Tightwad *and* Audio-interested set... or I should get that one and build more horns!  But I digress....)

 

Good luck with your build -- and posting floor plans and pics might get even better advice from the experts around here!

 

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Originally Posted by tsloms View Post
my infinity horn sub.

I'm a bit surprised and embarrassed to admit that my googlez have failed me:  Link to your design?  Always curious to check out what people have done to try to learn more!

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post #7 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakishlyTall View Post

I thought I had a tough room!

I am way, way less knowledgeable than anyone else on this forum (so if someone corrects me, listen to them, not me!), but I'd like to add a vote for the horn-sub idea, based on personal experience.  Further, if you don't want to build/deal with a refrigerator-sized design, take a look at the Lilmike Cinema T-6, or, if you're not handy / don't want to build a complex cabinet yourself, the Anarchy woofer and tapped horn flat-pack at DIY Sound Group.  That is a -really- interesting bit of subwooferage!

You could get two for not much more than just the sub driver you picked out.   (Or, better yet, spring for 4... or more... or add on as time / money allow!)  They're about the size of a small bookcase, and could be pretty easy to hide / blend into the background.  From what I understand, the more you have, the less important placement becomes, so you could tuck one by a bar, one under the screen, one in a corner, one by the coat rack, etc.  Better still than just the amount of bass you get for the buck, the CNC kit makes assembly -trivial-, by all accounts.

My DIY T-6 (bigger than the Anarchy, but similar design and still not invasively big) *easily* creates noticeable deep sound in my 34x24x10 + open-end-to-house room, while tucked away in a far corner.  No, you don't "feel" blasts of bass as if sitting in an over-bass'ed car (or, I bet, any of the wonderful, enviable, dedicated theaters belonging to members of this forum), but you hear a lot more of what was recorded than the 12" cheapo ported it replaced, and plenty to have people mention how good it is (sometimes taking the form of, "can you turn down the bass?" during movies... proper response:  "Nope.  Lost the remote." : ) ).  Very impressive for the price and size.

Best, since you're on a tight budget (like me!), the power requirements are low -- you could probably drive 4 (or more?) of the Anarchies off that amp, too.  (In fact, I really wish there was a ~$75-100 iNuke+DSP with less power for amps like these and/or sensitive speakers, but I may be the only member of the Tightwad *and* Audio-interested set... or I should get that one and build more horns!  But I digress....)

Good luck with your build -- and posting floor plans and pics might get even better advice from the experts around here!

I'm a bit surprised and embarrassed to admit that my googlez have failed me:  Link to your design?  Always curious to check out what people have done to try to learn more!

Here is a link to rhe horn build I did a couple years ago. I actually sold this for a smaller sealed sub for my living room but have purchased it back as a garage sub again.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1329918/18hz-infinity-offset-horn-tower
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post #8 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

Here is a link to rhe horn build I did a couple years ago. I actually sold this for a smaller sealed sub for my living room but have purchased it back as a garage sub again.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1329918/18hz-infinity-offset-horn-tower

 

Slick!  Thanks!  I'm always impressed by anyone who can sit down with a set of requirements and a blank sheet of paper and create a solution, no matter what the field... and folded-horn subwoofers seem especially like black magic, sometimes.  I'm a long way away from doing much more than building a proven design.  Very cool!  Thanks for the reply... I'm disappointed Google didn't kick that back in the results... no off to figure out how I missed it.

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post #9 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 02:01 PM
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Your budget is very small. I would look at used pro audio gear and do a 2.1 setup. Look for a used Yorkville SL801 sub. It does not go that low but has a ton of output and I have seen used ones go for around $600. Then pick up a pair of pro audio tops. Like this: http://www.zzounds.com/item--ELVZLX112P
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to everyone for the responses. I've built a number of sealed and vented subwoofers. I've never attempted building a horn loaded subwoofer and I don't know the first thing about determining the right flare, selecting an appropriate driver, figuring out the cutoff frequency or calculating the SPL output I could expect from one. Is there a non commercial design out there that someone we could legally copy? Or is there cheap/free design software so that I could design one for myself? I need something that can produce at least 125 dB at 1 m free-field.

WVSyd, do you mean like a 70 V type system? Or do you mean separates with multiple L R and Surround speakers? I think that would blow the budget. Plus the listening area is much smaller than the room itself so I think that 5 speakers and a subwoofer should work fine. But your right, it is somewhat narrow and deep.

Trepidation, they are using a similar Sony receiver now. With more efficient speakers, it works pretty well except that they are using 4 ohm speakers on it and the receiver is not 4 ohm stable. I think it's going to sound way better with those Bheringer speakers since they are 8 ohm and pretty efficient. Especially since are space is almost small enough that we could get away with hifi equipment.

As for the sub, according to Win ISD, it should be able to produce about 125 dB @ 1 m with 500 W. This should be adequate with room gain since the center of the listening area is only going to be just over two meters from the subwoofer. It will definitely need a subsonic filter below 30 Hz though. If I can get deeper bass for the same price though, I'm down for that.

Manic1!, You mean for the left and right and then something like the Electro-Voice for the center?
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post #11 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 06:03 PM
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Or do you mean separates with multiple L R and Surround speakers? I think that would blow the budget. Plus the listening area is much smaller than the room itself so I think that 5 speakers and a subwoofer should work fine. But your right, it is somewhat narrow and deep.
That is what was meant - multiples - "flown from overhead"
Understand the budget concern however.
In narrow deep area - prefer to keep distance from speaker to audience close and uniform.
A closer speaker doesn't have to be as loud.
No one would be twice as far from a speaker as any other listener, or in the acoustic shadow of another.

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post #12 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 06:11 PM
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Hi Gibby, I was hoping some of the guys who do pro-audio gigs would chime in here. I have not used speakers like those Behringers before, and I am unsure of how they would act with a home audio receiver like the Sony. On paper it should work, but that receiver will be getting used a lot more than it was meant to, and that has me concerned. It isn't intended for the kind of use you will give it. It would be better if you could get an AVR with preouts, but that doesn't look like it is in your budget. I do think you have the right idea about a subwoofer, if the listening area isn't too big. That driver should do well. A horn sub is a bit complicated and I don't think you need it with the driver you are looking at. You may get a deeper tuning point, so if you are after deep bass and are willing to take on a bit more complex build than just a vented box, that could be a great option. I do think the idea of doing multiple small subs instead of one monster sub has merit though. A couple of decent 15"s spread out over the room can get you more even bass throughout the listening area and would cost nearly the same, in drivers anyway. Bill F's Tuba HT subs look like they would be good for your application.
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post #13 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 06:14 PM
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Is there a non commercial design out there that someone we could legally copy?
Check Lilmike's builds on this forum

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Plus the listening area is much smaller than the room itself
Seating how many?
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/training_support/better_sound/part2/02/

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post #14 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gibby Travis View Post


Manic1!, You mean for the left and right and then something like the Electro-Voice for the center?

I mean left right ans skip the center. Goal 1 sould to get enough SPL for the room. Goal 2 should be to make it idiot prof, unless you are the only one using it.
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post #15 of 17 Old 04-08-2014, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I would actually ditch the center if the distributors would allow it. Unfortunately they require 5.1 so down mixing to 4.1 isn't an option.
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post #16 of 17 Old 04-09-2014, 04:50 AM
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A 5.1 setup works in a HT because of the limited seating and no listener is placed outside of the "focus".
http://www.jiscdigitalmedia.ac.uk/images/bam-03-5.1.jpg

How will this be maintained in a larger area to ensure than listeners are not placed too close/ of too far to a channel compared to other?

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post #17 of 17 Old 04-09-2014, 07:16 AM
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I would recommend making a list of goals that would allow you to measure the success of whatever you install. It can be technical things like SPL levels and frequency response, but those are easy. I'm talking about the subjective goals of the entire space.

I bring this up because your budget is simply inadequate. It is far more expensive in the long run to get into an endless cycle of repair and upgrades. However, you won't get a larger budget unless they understand what they're getting.

Once the goals are determined, then I would recommend identifying the ideal solution. From there you can make informed decisions about the compromises you are willing to make. It also helps identify a sane upgrade path should the opportunity arise.


All that said, I would recommend the Mackie Thump TH15 for the mains and get rid of the sub. Then choose a solid surround preamp. You could get five Mackies for $1k and go with a nice $500 processor. Then leave a dedicated sub as a future upgrade, but I don't think you need it unless you're cranking it super loud.

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