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post #1 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I've asked this in the past, but now I'm planning to actually start buying speakers.

Can you guys recommend a set of mains for a large HT (~4,000 c.f.). Front row seating is at ~13', second row at ~20', with a bar behind that. $500 per speaker for the LCR is as high as I would like to go, but I'd prefer cheaper if it's not going to be a noticeable difference in performance. The Fusion 15 Sentinel has been recommended before.

I'd also like to pick out the surrounds to match the mains. These will be going in columns, so they'll need to be smaller. I've looked at the Alpha-8 Minion which is stretching the budget, but still doable if it's worth the cost over other options. I'm looking at four side surrounds (two rows of seating) and two back surrounds, so keeping the cost down would be great, again, if I'm not going to be able to tell much difference.

I'm planning multiple subs to handle the low end, and I've got two Sherbourn PT-350, 7-channel amps to drive everything (excluding the subs).

I'm a noob when it comes to speakers, so I'm hoping for some guidance here. The nicest speakers I've had in the past were $80/each 3-wayTechnics that I had when I was kid. So I'm guessing I'm not going to be hard to impress, but I'd really like to make this purchase last a LONG time!

Thanks in advance!

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post #2 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 03:42 PM
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There are some new selections that will be available soon.

BUT: If you have an acoustically transparent screen, I would highly recommend the Tempest from DIYSoundgroup as mains and the Alchemy's (over the Minions) especially if cost is a consideration. Jeff Bagby designed the Tempest and Zephyrs as mains and prefers the Tempests which are less expensive. You can then go Alchemy or Minions no matter which of those you go with. I believe they are all voiced the same to match his Continuums.

If you don't have an acoustically transparent screen, I think the Elusive 1099 would make a great center and you could go that way with Left and Rights as well.

I took Jeff's suggestion and went with the Dayton Ultimax 15's as my subs. He felt they were a great value.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
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post #3 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 05:31 PM
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What ever you end up going with, remember if you have an AT screen it's always best to use 3 identical speakers across the front. Forget the horizontal center. I would personally recommend 3 of the Tempest from DIYSG and a pair of MartySubs with the Dayton HO18's driven by a Behringer iNuke3000dsp and for surrounds go with the V10's or V 8's from DIYSG as well!
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post #4 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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@ Jeff, Are you referring to the SEOS-15? I take it if I'm not in a hurry, I should wait? Are you recommending the Tempest and Alchemys based on Jeff's crossover design or is there another reason?

@Marty, I am planning for an AT screen and three matching mains. Is there a particular reason for recommending the coaxials as surrounds over the other options?

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post #5 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 05:52 PM
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the coaxials are smallish and cheap, can take a ton of power and sound IMO great, ideal for surrounds. great coverage and power from a small package, you could use the fusion 8 but the coaxial would save you some money.

the Tempests Jeff refers to are one of the 12" models

any of the 12" models or the 15" sentinel will work great for what you want. the Sentinels are physically larger
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post #6 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 06:04 PM
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I think that Jeff did a great job on the cross over on the Tempest. I think it is a very reasonable amount of money. For surrounds you could go with the coaxials or the Alchemy's.

I'm not certain on the prices / sound of the new Fusion 10 waveguide designs, but those might be a better price point for you.

I went in that direction so I'm biased, in that I thought for $2k it was the best value for 7 speakers for me. If I had a screen that I couldn't put the Tempests as LCR, I would be very happy to put Tux's 1099 under my screen. I had decided on Tempests and mentioned that I was going to build this kit to some people at work. One of my friends told me that I should talk to guy a who use to work for him about speakers as he knew alot about it. I thought..okay sure, until he said his name was Jeff Bagby and I was stunned. To further solidify my choice I talked to Jeff about them. I've exchanged alot of e-mails with him at work and when I was at the plant he works at, I have probably spent a few hours on various visits talking about his designs and speakers in general. These discussions have left me no doubt that I made a great choice and also made an incredible value decision. He designs alot of speakers......some with very expensive components. These are amazing value.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
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post #7 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 06:50 PM
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LCR = Tempest 12"
Surrounds = alchemy 8" or v10 volt coax

The coax can be a little smaller and they have less directivity and more dispersion so depending on what you want they may be better or worse. In the money spot the alchemy is better but outside it the volt would probably be more forgiving. As a speaker the alchemy probably sounds better (I'm guessing) and is a better music speaker but for surrounds the volts have some attraction , you could make angled boxes for either.

No reason you could not fatten up the fusion 8 box also to make it fit in a colum with less depth. The stock box is narrow so make it wider and less deep and keep the cubic volume the same is an option.

For bass you want a high value 18" ported at about 17hz. Build a few and try to get one in the back of the room if you can.

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post #8 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 07:40 PM
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If you're in no rush, I'd consider the new sentinel. But before that...

What is you SPL requirement? What subs will you be using? What physical constraints do you have? Can you build a piece of furniture or do you need a flat pack because hanging a picture on the wall is a challenge? Is there an aesthetic preference you have? Are you able to do a baffle wall?
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post #9 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

LCR = Tempest 12"
Surrounds = alchemy 8" or v10 volt coax

The coax can be a little smaller and they have less directivity and more dispersion so depending on what you want they may be better or worse. In the money spot the alchemy is better but outside it the volt would probably be more forgiving. As a speaker the alchemy probably sounds better (I'm guessing) and is a better music speaker but for surrounds the volts have some attraction , you could make angled boxes for either.

No reason you could not fatten up the fusion 8 box also to make it fit in a colum with less depth. The stock box is narrow so make it wider and less deep and keep the cubic volume the same is an option.

For bass you want a high value 18" ported at about 17hz. Build a few and try to get one in the back of the room if you can.

I haven't considered the coax mostly out of lack of knowledge. I used a D.E. layout for my room, and I think Dennis typically specs Procellas which have an 80 degree radiation pattern (I think). I "assumed" that the coaxials would have a radiation pattern greater than that, but now that I think about it, I may be wrong about that. Not having any other data points, and not really knowing what I'm doing, I've just assumed I needed speakers with a similar radiation pattern.

I'm open to suggestions/information/feedback here!
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...

Edit: Looks like our posts crossed. I'll leave the below items since it itemizes my needs fairly well. Is the "new sentinel" the Fusion-15" sentinel on the DIYSG page, or is it a new design that's currently in the works?

Budget - $1,500 max for the LCR ($500 ea). Surrounds somewhere in the neighborhood of $250 ea max. That makes me hurt a bit, but I really don't want to upgrade these again anytime soon.
Seating distances - ~13' to 1st row eyes, ~20 to second row eyes, third row bar
Subs - None yet, but I'm leaning towards three large horn subs (something like a 'lil wrecker)
Physical constraints - Not many. The room is roughly 17.5' W x 28' L. Columns will end up around 10"-12" deep.
Amplification - I have two Sherbourn PT-350, 7-channel amps I'll be using to power LCR and surrounds.
DIY ability - I can build just about anything, but I'd prefer something like a flat pack if possible. If I go with horn subs, I'll be building those.
Surround Location - Surrounds will be in columns at around 100-110 degrees (just eyeballing my layout) behind the corresponding row of seats. Rear surrounds on the back wall also in columns. Both are well away from the corners.
Seating width - No more than 131" - Two rows of four seats plus the back bar
Aesthetics - I'm planning to hide all the speakers either behind an AT screen/screenwall or in the columns
SPL - I don't have a particular number in mind. Everyone seems to shoot for reference, but I don't have any experience with that, and I understand that can be a bit much.

Thanks again!

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post #10 of 109 Old 04-10-2014, 08:38 PM
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I toned down my post and noticed you had a few of my questions already answered in your OP.

Ok, based on that I'd still say the new Fusion 15 not out yet with the 15" waveguide. The added size will give you more output to match the horn loaded subs. Also directivity will be held lower. The price will probably be less than $500. It'll have better bass output to match those horns which can sometimes have troublesome top end. All in all I think it would be a better choice to the tempest. If you were in a rush and had to have a flat pack, then the tempest would be a good choice. But in your case its a compromise IMO.
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post #11 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 03:53 AM
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While I agree with Tux about the ideal choice being the new Fusion-15 for your LCR's as they would be excellent performers that could trump speakers costing $2,000 to $3,500 or more, but, as far as I know, the Seos-15 waveguide used in this speaker has not been in stock yet, and it seems that no one really knows when to expect it, although I could be wrong, that is what I have concluded.

If you can't wait, then build a Fusion-12 Tempest and be done with your LCR's as they will likely be extremely close to the Fusion-15's in terms of sound quality, SPL, ect...

For surrounds, go with the V8's or V10's and be done with it! They will be perfect for movies and music as well. They are cheap, measure well, have great dispersion & overall sound quality, plus you can get the slanted enclosure flat pack to make them look nice along your walls or columns.
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post #12 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 05:36 AM
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So the layout was designed for side arrays, right? I'd try to stick as close as possible the spec'd directivity. The coaxes will be closer to 100 degrees. So assuming the vertical pattern in the minion is good to cover the seats left to right, which I believe it is, I think the waveguide is the better choice. EOS is a 90 degree design, so it's a little tighter (and neater) than the coax - closer to the procella.
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post #13 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

as far as I know, the Seos-15 waveguide used in this speaker has not been in stock yet, and it seems that no one really knows when to expect it, although I could be wrong, that is what I have concluded.

They have been in stock since January. wink.gif
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post #14 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

as far as I know, the Seos-15 waveguide used in this speaker has not been in stock yet, and it seems that no one really knows when to expect it, although I could be wrong, that is what I have concluded.

They have been in stock since January. wink.gif

yep i have 3 in my closet just waiting for me to do something with them
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post #15 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 06:55 AM
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How close will the surrounds be to the ceiling?
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post #16 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

They have been in stock since January. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

yep i have 3 in my closet just waiting for me to do something with them

Are there any crossover designs for them yet? Is there a kit that comes with the baffle? I feel like I missed the secret handshake on these speakers smile.gif I'm not in any rush to get the speakers, I'm just trying to start checking off the items I need before my room is finished. I've got a few months if I need to wait on something that may be better for my space.
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How close will the surrounds be to the ceiling?

There is a soffit around the perimeter of the room, and the columns will be on the riser at the back, so they will be relatively close to the ceiling. I don't have exact dimensions but I'll say about 1' to the center of the waveguide from the soffit bottom. The soffit is about 8" tall by 26" deep. I'm guessing the reflection from the ceiling plays into making a decision about the surround selection?

@HF, my layout is one of the less expensive ones that was being offered by EG through AVS. He didn't spec a particular speaker for the surrounds (or the LCR for that matter), but if memory serves he's posted in the past that when using a side array a narrower directivity is preferred. I'll try to find the post if I get a chance.

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post #17 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 08:11 AM
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Yes the ceiling does give me pause for thought. I'd suggest a coax design as well so that the ceiling reflections are uniform. If you have a lot of time, a 3 way coax is planned (by me). This hasn't even started though, and will probably be over your budget. That would probably offer a little more output ability to keep up with the rest of your system, but a reasonable area of compromise.

The new Sentinel is just being finished up. You haven't seen the details because the details haven't been released.
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post #18 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 08:14 AM
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What tux said I'd correct. The 15" seos preorder came in a while back. Designs being worked on.
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post #19 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 09:38 AM
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Since OP has some time and is still in construction phase of his dedicated theater waiting for a design currently being worked on should not be a problem (I'm guessing)

The question I have (I'm just about to start my theater build after my babies are born next month) is this:

How will the new Sentinel and the 15" size compare to something that's widely popular and proven like the Tempest 12" ?

Specifically,

What is the advantage of the 15" ?

also,

Is this a FUSION line product still with FUSION line price tag ? Or it it ALPHA priced? The older model was over $400 each I think so there is a point cost come into the equation. Is the new model being redesigned to be cheaper? Or better? What was the reason for the redesign ?

My theater build is going to be 24 feet wide by 32 feet long - higher ceilings. Bar at the back, two rows. I pay attention to J_P_A''s choices because his build is sized similar to mine; he probably has no idea I AVS stalk him eek.gif In a bigger build like his and mine is there additional consideration or changes to recommendations typically given to account for the room size, and the purpose of the room being a true dedicated theater ? Or is this simply a case where the things good about the SEOS designs in smaller rooms are still good in bigger?

Lastly,

@ J_P-A, What are you thinking about doing for subwoofage ? Sealed? Ported? Horn ? How many ?

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post #20 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
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Are there any crossover designs for them yet? Is there a kit that comes with the baffle? I feel like I missed the secret handshake on these speakers smile.gif I'm not in any rush to get the speakers, I'm just trying to start checking off the items I need before my room is finished. I've got a few months if I need to wait on something that may be better for my space.

There's a model being worked on with a 15" woofer under a SEOS-15. There will be flat packs and crossovers.

There's also a model using dual 8" woofers under a SEOS-15. Height will be about 18" tall. There will be flat packs and crossovers.
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post #21 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 09:51 AM
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Mfusik, most of your questions either Erich or Matt would have to answer. And they probably can't tell you how much it'll cost yet. But about $500 would be my guess.

As for the 15" compared to the 12" it's basically about directivity and output. A 15" is wider so it can hold directivity lower, say, down to 500hz maybe even a little more. And it can handle a lot more 60 to 150hz SPL simply because its a bigger cone. In a theatre the size of the OPs, this is quite important. A single 10" or dual 8" is adequate for a 10' listening distance if you don't fun it to much. But a 20' seating distance needs 6db more. And if you like some headroom, well maybe you need 12db more. How you get that is more woofers and bigger woofers. The other option would be a dual 12", that would have more output than a single 15", but cost goes up even more. And there aren't any dual 12 designs I'm aware of. I think Pi has a dual 15 iirc.
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post #22 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 09:58 AM
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Dual 12" drivers would be killer. biggrin.gif

Do these new 15" models still use the DNA 360 ? Or the BA-750 ?

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post #23 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 10:22 AM
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Yes indeed.

97E5DCE0-1CA8-4200-B042-A4733E5CCFA6_zpsccxwjdsl.jpg
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Dual 12" drivers would be killer. biggrin.gif

Do these new 15" models still use the DNA 360 ? Or the BA-750 ?

They should use the DNA-360. The 750 is overkill or the SEOS 15 IMO unless maybe PA use.
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post #24 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 10:24 AM
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I knew you'd post that picture biggrin.gif The inset waveguide is really a nice touch. Did you ever get a sander ? I grabbed an air powered one with a new compressor yesterday at harbor freight I am going to try out on my Fusion 8's. Is it weird I am building Fusion 8's so I have something to listen to while building my theater and speakers for it ?

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post #25 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Mfusik, most of your questions either Erich or Matt would have to answer. And they probably can't tell you how much it'll cost yet. But about $500 would be my guess.

As for the 15" compared to the 12" it's basically about directivity and output. A 15" is wider so it can hold directivity lower, say, down to 500hz maybe even a little more. And it can handle a lot more 60 to 150hz SPL simply because its a bigger cone. In a theatre the size of the OPs, this is quite important. A single 10" or dual 8" is adequate for a 10' listening distance if you don't fun it to much. But a 20' seating distance needs 6db more. And if you like some headroom, well maybe you need 12db more. How you get that is more woofers and bigger woofers. The other option would be a dual 12", that would have more output than a single 15", but cost goes up even more. And there aren't any dual 12 designs I'm aware of. I think Pi has a dual 15 iirc.

Isn't the limiting factor here the compression driver for crossover? Are you using a different crossover then what was used on them Tempest? If I recall my conversation with Jeff correctly, the CD limited how low you could cross over even with a bigger waveguide. He is out on vacation so I can't ask him and I could, very well have misunderstood him 6 weeks ago when I talked to him.

I recall asking him about whether I should go with a 15" waveguide and wait for those designs. Others may have different opinions, and I can't speak for Bagby.....I believe I recall this conversation though.

Edit: Found my e-mail exchange when I was asking him about the 15" dual woofer design he was working on and if I should go that direction or stay with the Tempest

The Tempest has a more dynamic midbass and deeper bass extension, which make a big difference. Both use the same compression driver, and even though the SEOS-15 is bigger, it really doesn’t extend any lower than the SEOS-12 due to the limitations on the low-end extension of the DNA-360. This speaker will fit in places the Tempest won’t though, so that’s why we made it.

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post #26 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 10:41 AM
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I couldn't resist. biggrin.gif

There are still advantages the 15 has over the dual 12; lower directivity. How much it matters, well some say lots and some say little.
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post #27 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 10:50 AM
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At 15" the CD starts to limit the capability. So it is on the line. But the 360 is still quite capable on the SEOS 15. And the larger waveguide gives more output (how much I'm not sure). On the SEOS 18 the DNA-360 is in trouble.

Jeff's a great designer, but he didn't cross it low (I did). Geddes has used the DE250 down to 900hz iirc but his waveguide is bigger. So I'd say Jeff is wrong if you've got him right. The 360 isn't limited on the SEOS 12. He crossed relatively high IMO. Yes, I do use a different cross over than him.

I'm betting you have misunderstood him a bit. He probably said something along the lines of how loud you can go is limited by the CD and how low it is crossed, and that is true. But then again, how many 360s have been fried. I know of a guy on Tech Talk that fried his resistors and capacitor using his tempests in a gym and the 360 is fine. That's a lot of output to melt a cap biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 11:01 AM
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Updated my post.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
Theater Build
DIY Speaker / Sub Build
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post #29 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 11:07 AM
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I disagree with him.

Several people have used that CD down to 900hz and lower. Below the SEOS 12 cut off. Unless Jeff is expecting PA use.
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post #30 of 109 Old 04-11-2014, 11:49 AM
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A lot has been covered here so far. I am rather new to this so I will just add what I did. I don't have a dedicated theater, but I do sit 15 feet back from the front with an open floor plan layout.

I bought Tempest L/C/R, Volt V10 surrounds, and Alchemy currently being used as Front Height speakers with (6) SI 18" in Erich's flat packs stacked in the front corners. Pretty awesome setup. If you want to blow out your ear drums in my room I believe it may be possible. I often think about reinforcing the floor joists in my room for fear that my system will blow a hole into the basement.

I went with the Tempest & Alchemy speakers because they had flat packs and assembled crossovers. I have assembled the crossovers in the Fusion 6 so I feel I can do that now so if I were to pick now it would be a speaker that has at least a flat pack since that is a huge time saver.

I would check out Tux's 1099. The three way design looks very interesting to me (no flat pack yet, but easy cut sheet floating around). I would love to hear what they sound like. And the new Sentinel V2 looks very interesting, but maybe too big for me. Could be perfect for you. I really like what Matt G did with the Fusion 6 so I would check out any other speaker designed by him. Especially the Sentinel V2.

I also read that the AE TD12M and TD15M woofers are the best woofers to use if you can afford them. Makes me wonder what it would take to upgrade my Tempest to use the TD12M. I know I'd use a new crossover, but not sure if they would fit my current boxes without modification or if the modification is something within my capabilities. Might want to take a look at what is offered with the AE woofers. There are a couple designs floating around.

There are supposed to be a few higher end designs coming from Erich as well (Alpha line?). Might be further out though and maybe out of your price range. I may wait since the current Tempest setup is pretty awesome as it is.
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