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EndersShadow 04-12-2014 10:50 AM

6 Attachment(s)
I have a 16 wide x 18 long room. Its open on the back to the kitchen. I have a eD A2-300. It just cant deliver as much due to the open nature of the space. I am looking at 2 options for sub(s) and 2 for amps. I wanted thoughts on them and I am open to suggestions.

I am trying to get the best room response I can for the buck and get some down low sub 20hz stuff going on. The goal is for this to be mostly HT based for LFE. Music is secondary. I am also looking for a more even room response (hence looking at duals), but also something that gives me some decent umph and hopefully down to 20hz. I am ballparking w/ the dining room that I am at or over 3k cubic foot.

I have a 16 wide x 18 long room. Its open on the back to the kitchen. I have a eD A2-300. It just cant deliver as much due to the open nature of the space. I am looking at 2 options for sub(s) and 2 for amps. I am also potentially debating the iNuke subs, I just am not sure if I want to go with them over the QSC's......

I am REACHING if I spend 1k on this total. I am hoping to be MUCHmore in the 800 dollar range for just driver(s) and amp.

Here are some options I am debating.

Option 1a: 2 12" Dayton Ultimax drivers. Each in a 4 cubic ft box. Driven by a QSC-7 so each will get 1k @ 4 ohm.

Option 1b: 1 TC Sounds LMS-R in a 6 cubic foot box. Each Voice coil driven by a channel from the QSC-7 giving it 1k @ 4 ohm.

Option 2a: 2 12" Dayton Ultimax drivers. Each in a 4 cubic ft. Driven by a QSC GX-5 so each will get 700w @ 4 ohm.

Option 2b: 1 TC Sounds LMS-R in a 6 cubic foot box. Each Voice coil driven by a channel from the QSC GX-5 giving it 700w @ 4 ohm.

I am totally open to other suggestions but prefer they meet the following metrics:

1. 12 or 15" driver ONLY. Want to have something that can hit fast and hard and the 18's just may have problems with that.
2. No bigger than 6 cubic foot box. I would prefer to build a Sonotube as its more WAF friendly as its tall but not nearly as deep as say a Martysub
3. Would LOVE IT if I could do duals to start with, or if nothing else if the amp could handle duals on its own.
4. IF I CAN GET EQ I WOULD BE HAPPY. Otherwise I am looking hard at a 2 x 4 minidsp w/ mic to use REW to EQ my setup.
5. I am on a slab with no crawlspace. I am on the first floor with a room above me and exterior walls on 2 sides. There is no way to hide the sub in the walls or floor.

Here is what my setup looks like (these are stock pics from when we bought the house)

21265824_A01_102.jpg

21265824_701_18.jpg

21265824_901_18.jpg

21265824_501_109.jpg

21265824_301_109.jpg

21265824_401_109.jpg

BassThatHz 04-12-2014 06:22 PM

What I'd recommend is that you build two different types of subs.

Two of these, dual-opposed sealed:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa380-8-15-pro-woofer--295-034

and two of these, dual-opposed sealed:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um15-22-15-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-514

For an amp I'd buy an inuke3k DSP, you will need the DSP version for what I'm recommending.
http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu3000dsp-inuke-3000-watt-power-amplifier-with-dsp--248-6706

The PA-15's handle everything above 40hz wired @ 4ohms; the UM's everything below 40hz wired @ 2ohms.

That's what I do, except I use 16 of them; and it hits fast and hard and low.





If you wanna get real fancy with the woodworking and math, you can make them ported instead of sealed at 40hz and 20hz to gain another 6db near those frequencies.

note: The 18" equivalents of those will go louder and deeper, but more $$$


At 98.5 dB 1W/1m (times 2) and at full rated power going into them, it will be LOUD. (Way louder than your current sub.)

EndersShadow 04-12-2014 07:12 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Good idea but VERY LOW WAF. That many drivers just isn't going to happen.

Also my mains are pretty capable so in have no doubt I can get help down to 40 or 50 Hz w them. They are Polk LSi 15s that are nodded with a db851 8" sub rather than the stock one. Power is a hot rodded Carver M1.0t providing 550 watts @ 4 ohm @ clipping and 1100 dynamic as needed.

I am thinking a LMS-R 12" in a ported sonotube that's say 7 cubic feet driven by a iNuke 3000 would be a good start. Tuned to say 20 hz. The iNuke can do 2 of em so that would be the plan.

Add in a minidsp w umc Mic to calibrate w REW and I think I would be golden.

brian6751 04-12-2014 07:46 PM

Marty cube or two.

18" subs are just as "fast".

Smaller drivers being "faster" is all BS

Dank1209 04-12-2014 07:59 PM

^^^^^^ + 1 wink.gif

EndersShadow 04-12-2014 09:08 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Marty cube or two.

18" subs are just as "fast".

Smaller drivers being "faster" is all BS

If I am looking at the WinISD file right the LMS-R still has more output under 25 hz than the 18" driver.

I have the 18" Dayton in a 6 cubic foot box tuned to 20 hz with 900 watts RMS @ 4 ohm.

I have the LMS-R in a 6 cubic foot box tuned to 20 hz with 1000 watts RMS @ 4 ohm.

Over 25hz the 18" has a LOT more output than the LMS-R, but under 25hz the Dayton drops fast and the LMS-R stays flat.

areyou4real 04-12-2014 10:43 PM

Also posted on HTS, I am a member both places and first saw your thread there:

You might want to search for some of the builds here using either the Infinity 1260 or 1262 12" driver(s). The 1260 is SVC (4-ohm), while the 1262 is DVC (4-ohm x 2). Which one would work best for you, would depend on how many you are using vs. what impedance your amp can safely drive. Both would work fairly well either sealed or ported, with the size restrictions you give. The best part, at ~$60 each, they are a bargain for what you get.
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Refer.../dp/B0028AVGEO
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Refer.../dp/B0028AYIXK

With your budget and room size, I would get 4 of them and build 2 enclosures with 2 drivers each. If you went ported and larger you could get by with roughly 400 W RMS to each enclosure (i.e. to 2 drivers) to hit Xmax. Sealed and smaller would require more power. A model would provide more insight, once you decided which route to go. Either way, you could use one stereo amp to save money. Build one and use one channel or build two and use both channels.

Sonosubs are nice a way to go, if you want to limit the footprint, but MDF can also be used. The nice thing about DIY is that you control the footprint. For example, I just built a self-powered dual opposed sub using (2) 1262 drivers. Like you, I didn't want to eat up a lot of floor space, so I built up on 16" deep x 24" wide footprint.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...bash-500w.html

As far as protecting the speakers, Parts Express sells nice mesh metal grills for about $10 each.
http://www.parts-express.com/steel-m...black--260-428

MiniDSP is nice, especially when you need to set up a HPF on a ported sub to control cone excursion below tune. Add a UMIK-1 with REW and you will really have a lot of control for not much money. However, neither is mandatory assuming you can set up a HPF some other way (Some amps have the ability). A receiver/preamp with Audyssey MultEQ XT and higher, can also do much of the same, save the HPF.

You may want to consider the iNuke DSP line (with fan mod if it's going to be in your listening area). The DSP will allow you to set up the HPF, and they are also 2-ohm stable. In that case, you could use the NU1000DSP (~$199, 380 W RMS per channel, 2-ohm) if you went ported and larger. Or step up to the NU3000DSP (~$279, 1040 W RMS per channel, 2-ohm) if you go sealed and smaller or just want some more headroom.


$250 (4) 1260 drivers
$200/$280 amp
$200 4 sheets 3/4" pro grade MDF (possibly only 3, if sealed)
$150 hardware/paint/wire/misc
$800 - $880 total

EndersShadow 04-13-2014 08:00 AM

6 Attachment(s)
Thanks I saw your response there. This will be duplicated there as well.

I will take a look at those subs, but given the size of your enclosure that simply wont pass muster here with WAF smile.gif. They sure do look quite nice.

The reason for the MiniDSP is that right now I have Audyssey 2EQ only, hence no real DSP on my sub. I wanted the ability to incorporate multiples if I wanted to use 4 later on and the DSP allows me to do that. Plus I can also use the REW setup to help me better place my existing fronts so they work better.

Thats why I am looking at the minidsp and then NOT the DSP iNuke models..

I am also "looking" at MartyCube's using the Dayton 18" driver. My issue with them is that compared to the LMS-R they are MUCH louder till about 25 hz and then they drop off quickly. I am wanting decent output at 20hz and the LMS-R looks to provide that, however the MartyCube's can both be built with a iNuke 3000 and driven to their max.

areyou4real 04-13-2014 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

Thanks I saw your response there. This will be duplicated there as well.

I will take a look at those subs, but given the size of your enclosure that simply wont pass muster here with WAF smile.gif. They sure do look quite nice.

The reason for the MiniDSP is that right now I have Audyssey 2EQ only, hence no real DSP on my sub. I wanted the ability to incorporate multiples if I wanted to use 4 later on and the DSP allows me to do that. Plus I can also use the REW setup to help me better place my existing fronts so they work better.

Thats why I am looking at the minidsp and then NOT the DSP iNuke models..

I am also "looking" at MartyCube's using the Dayton 18" driver. My issue with them is that compared to the LMS-R they are MUCH louder till about 25 hz and then they drop off quickly. I am wanting decent output at 20hz and the LMS-R looks to provide that, however the MartyCube's can both be built with a iNuke 3000 and driven to their max.

I thought you were limited to 6 ft3 per enclosure? Yes, I built 9 ft3, but 6 ft3 will work, too. You will just give up some FR and output at the lower end. You could go smaller still, if you went sealed. If you search, you will find some smaller builds on here both sealed and ported using the 1260/1262. Also, if you know how to use WinISD, you could do some modeling to see what you get with different designs.

As you probably understand, speaker/sub design is about trade-offs - FR/SPL vs. enclosure size vs. power req vs. alignment vs. cost vs. build skills vs. appearance vs. etc. Decide what matters most to you and go from there. Just make sure you are comparing apples-to-apples in order to draw a fair conclusion between the different configurations - i.e. hold enclosure size/tune identical for vented, normalize excursion to xMax or use the same input power, etc.

As far as the iNuke DSP, it can also do EQ in addition to setting a HPF (assuming you went vented). Also, with an iNuke DSP you would not need the miniDSP to set up your subs with REW. Instead, you could use the DSP of the iNuke and your existing Audyssey mic to save money. As good and easy as the minDSP with the UMIK-1? No, but still very good and a lot cheaper. There's that trade-off word again.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1328136/measurement-mic-shootout-emm-6-wm-61a-rs-33-2055-audyssey

Just some food for thought . . .

chalugadp 04-13-2014 11:26 AM

If you use the uxl18 driver the Martycube doesn't drop of below 25 as fast. Not really fair to compare LMS to Dayton.

BassThatHz 04-13-2014 01:55 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

VERY LOW WAF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

I am thinking a ported sonotube that's say 7 cubic feet

^^^ sonotubes are the ugliest things I can think of... and I'm not even your wife. She will call it the living-room water-heater and hate your forever (be forewarned) tongue.gif


What I have recommended can fit into two 3cuft boxes, you can put four speaker grills on them to cover the woofers, and since they are dual-opposed you can put plants on them to make your wife happy and they won't fall off or rattle.
You have a lot of wood in your room, making two 3cf birch boxes would look HOT compared to a cardboard "water-heater" tube-sub.
You could make them as end-tables if you wanted.

The Dayton PA-15 Dual-Opposed ($150, one 3cuft box):



The Dayton UM-15's Dual-Opposed ($400, one 6cuft box):



or 3cuft box:


If you don't like the UM-15's, put LMS-R's in the boxes instead ($750):





My Dayton PA subs rock my world in ways my LMS-U's can't, and vice-versa, that's why I built both. (if it didn't work I wouldn't have kept them).
My mains at the time were beefy too, 105db above 30hz, and now my new mains are 115db and I still kept the PA's around (because they output 136db by comparison, the way I have it configured).

EndersShadow 04-13-2014 04:49 PM

6 Attachment(s)
^What program are you using to model these subs?

BassThatHz 04-13-2014 04:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

^What program are you using to model these subs?
Unibox


Or just to be a rebel, this... times 2
(i.e. +6db) for $600

Quad Dayton PA-15 DO ($300):


LOL, Look at that wattage compared to the sealed LMS-R's at 3cuft eek.gif
These are rated for 2000watts per box, so they won't over heat... they are mainly excursion limited.
But this requires two 6cuft boxes which might be too much for your to place, and they are 6ohm drivers so it will require two nu1k's for stereo 3ohm x2.

areyou4real 04-13-2014 05:02 PM

I modeled the UM15-22 using your same assumptions in WinISD, and I'm not seeing anything close to what you show, vented or sealed.

Perhaps someone else can cross-check what you have posted as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post


^^^ sonotubes are the ugliest things I can think of... and I'm not even your wife. She will call it the living-room water-heater and hate your forever (be forewarned) tongue.gif

What I have recommended can fit into two 3cuft boxes, you can put four speaker grills on them to cover the woofers, and since they are dual-opposed you can put plants on them to make your wife happy and they won't fall off or rattle.
You have a lot of wood in your room, making two 3cf birch boxes would look HOT compared to a cardboard "water-heater" tube-sub.
You could make them as end-tables if you wanted.

The Dayton PA-15 Dual-Opposed ($150, one 3cuft box):

The Dayton UM-15's Dual-Opposed ($400, one 6cuft box):

or 3cuft box:

If you don't like the UM-15's, put LMS-R's in the boxes instead ($750):

My Dayton PA subs rock my world in ways my LMS-U's can't, and vice-versa, that's why I built both. (if it didn't work I wouldn't have kept them).
My mains at the time were beefy too, 105db above 30hz, and now my new mains are 115db and I still kept the PA's around (because they output 136db by comparison, the way I have it configured).

BassThatHz 04-13-2014 05:15 PM

Here is what Quad UM-15's do in my room with ~1000watts.

Real subs, real amps, real room, real results. (Not some computerized box model stuff.)


The subs were only moving about 1/4inch each, there was room to drive them harder if needed.

BassThatHz 04-13-2014 05:30 PM

Here is what 6 UM-15's sounds like on movies (14 of 16 subs powered up here). It's pretty intense to say the least.


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