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post #391 of 456 Old 05-04-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I thought Kickstarter was open to anyone that wanted to contribute, but maybe I'm wrong about that. But either way, it's not my place to say whether it's OK to do it or not. It just strikes me as going beyond a some DIY enthusiasts giving a go at the synergy design. If the SEOS project revolved around the synergy, or any other patented design or intellectual property, I'd feel the same way about that. Just my opinion though, nothing more.

Ditto to my suggestion that you listen to the designs you want to replicate. Just my opinion and was meant to help. It's not that you can't just go with others opinions and descriptions - I purchased speakers that way myself once. I just don't think it's a great way to go about it. Particularly if you're going to put significant time, energy and money building it yourself. My only point was that you should listen to them before you put all that effort into trying to replicate them. It wasn't meant to be critical or judgemental.

Well technically I can't say if you're right or wrong about my use of the word kickstarter. What I meant is that since this project of not only building a synergy but a noesis themed type synergy would be extremely difficult so a few of us that would want to DIY get together and make it much cheaper just to see if its worthwhile. A few hundred bucks from a few people could allow one person to physically build the prototype while we collectively collaborate together throughout the process. I have programs that can lay out a cut sheet with every angle detailed but that's about all I can bring to the table. All the modeling and measuring would be over my head; although, I've read the other synergy DIY build threads and kind of understand all the tiny details that are involved during the process. DIY kits are just as gratifying to some as totally engineering ones own design.

But, what I took from Ivan's last post in short is - Good luck as its just too complicated to get a finished product that will come close to one of theirs. It might turn out good/great/ok but it won't be a Danley. That's just my take on his comment and I could be totally off.

As far as "stealing" DSLs synergy concept, I wouldn't want to use it without him allowing it "which he has in the past".

Oh, no worries about being judgemental. I hope to listen to many DSL models. But, until then I rely on people like yourself to provide experiences through various forms of communication. I did buy 9 JTRs from Jeff without ever hearing them and relied on others posts/thoughts in that process. Was I satisfied with my purchase? Yes totally. Could I have regretted it, of course but all the detailed reviews and opinions pretty much described what I recieved. They did sound completely different than any other speaker I had before. The LCRs just aren't what I need for my application. But, I couldn't spend what the Danleys cost retail without hearing them first.
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post #392 of 456 Old 05-04-2014, 05:03 PM
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But, what I took from Ivan's last post in short is - Good luck as its just too complicated to get a finished product that will come close to one of theirs. It might turn out good/great/ok but it won't be a Danley. That's just my take on his comment and I could be totally off.

.
What I meant by my comments was that Tom was the one who came up with the idea-and it took him quite awhile (with LOTS of very detailed measurements-and UNDERSTANDING of what the measurements were telling him) to come up with the current product(s).

Yes there were other good products (the TD1 is still considered by many to be a good product) that were sold and accepted.
But he kept (and still does) pushing and furthering his understanding of how loudspeakers interfere/sum etc

The chances of "getting lucky" are not very good. The design is very deliberate with lots of "little steps" to get to the end result.

Sure-a good sounding product could be done-Tom has paved the way for many DIYers-so the basic concepts are pretty well understood.

It is not just about the drivers (good drivers help) but it IS about how the drivers are used. For example you can't just swap out the HF driver for one you "think" is better. It may be better-but the physical path length inside the driver may be different-so the whole alignment to the mids get thrown off and a hole ends up in the response-or a phase shift etc.

The Synergy horn is truly the sum of the parts and how they are used. "Better" does not always work better. In other designs sure-but not when all the passbands are working together and "relying" on each other.

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post #393 of 456 Old 05-04-2014, 07:01 PM
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Ivan if someone makes a Synergy horn design and sells kits for them wouldnt that be a violation of ones patten if there inst permission given?

I dont want to derail this thread but I have been a huge Danley fan for a while. I have a problem with a few things I see other places and wanted to know what you thought on the question above.

A lot of the stuff Ivan is describing about CD's and other is described in the HUGE thread at DIY Audio. I have learned quite a bit there. Still have a long way to go. I personally am not worried about getting drivers in correct locations but more worried about crossover and the horn build.

Ivan when is Danley going to upload some more videos?
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post #394 of 456 Old 05-04-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

A lot of the stuff Ivan is describing about CD's and other is described in the HUGE thread at DIY Audio. I have learned quite a bit there. Still have a long way to go. I personally am not worried about getting drivers in correct locations but more worried about crossover and the horn

Yea. Great thread and was the first time I grasped what all was going on inside the cabinet.
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post #395 of 456 Old 05-05-2014, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Ivan if someone makes a Synergy horn design and sells kits for them wouldnt that be a violation of ones patten if there inst permission given?

I dont want to derail this thread but I have been a huge Danley fan for a while. I have a problem with a few things I see other places and wanted to know what you thought on the question above.

A lot of the stuff Ivan is describing about CD's and other is described in the HUGE thread at DIY Audio. I have learned quite a bit there. Still have a long way to go. I personally am not worried about getting drivers in correct locations but more worried about crossover and the horn build.

Ivan when is Danley going to upload some more videos?
That would be up to the lawyers. But profiting off of other peoples work/research etc is what the patents are designed to protect.

That includes DIY and renting the cabinets out-because you are still profiting off of others work.

There are violators out there and they are being pursued.

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post #396 of 456 Old 05-05-2014, 05:54 AM
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Good to hear Ivan.
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post #397 of 456 Old 05-05-2014, 04:01 PM
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Well technically I can't say if you're right or wrong about my use of the word kickstarter.

I thought you were talking about an actual Kickstarter project https://www.kickstarter.com.
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post #398 of 456 Old 05-06-2014, 06:03 AM
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With the complexity of building any of the DSL's speakers, (ie: cabinets & crossovers), and seeing that Tom, who is an expert, has had many different variations of the Sh50's and the long road it took him to finally get the design right, I seriously doubt that any of us DIY guys would be able to design, & build a Danley + JTR hybrid that combines the best attributes of the JTR 212's and the Sh50's. It is just too hard for the average person to do, and I think with that being the case, and assuming that we all really want to see a DIY plan for the Sh50, SM96 ect...Perhaps we should focus our attention on talking Tom into helping us come up with a detailed DIY design that would be somewhat easier to build compared to going at it alone and having to design the cabinets and crossovers without his assistance. He might even be willing to help us tweak the design & crossover to be more optimized for home theater usage!

We can pool our money together and those of us who do so could possibly get the better set of blueprints! I think that if we could get some folks to contribute a donation for this cause, say we get 50 people who donate $100 and/or up to $250 dollars each, or perhaps Tom could give us his opinion on this and how to make it possible for the average, experienced AVS forum DIY member to build these wonderful sounding speakers!
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post #399 of 456 Old 05-06-2014, 06:56 AM
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Marty have you seen the DIY thread?

Not trying to be rude but curious is all. Tom has posted there a few times and there is a WEALTH of knowledge there. After reading that thread a few times I have a much better grasp on what is going on in a SH. The thread gets you in the ball park of what to do. The rest will be experimenting. So it CAN be done. I would much prefer that someone just takes a stab at it and tries to help others do their own. I dont want to take anything away from Tom. The SH idea is with Tom and Mike or whatever his name is. SO while Tom may want to shed some light on certain things I think he has probably shared more than Mike would want shared. IDK this for sure just thinking from a business point of view.

So many people have made prototypes here and there of SH like designs. I am sure others could build something of their own and if they stick with it and keep at it have something there very proud of. I myself would be happy to have 80% of what a SH can do. I dont expect a complete copy. I just love to build stuff and enjoy learning as I go. Between JLH, Patrick Bateman, Speaker Scott, Bwaslo and a hand full of others I am looking forward to someday starting my SH build. I just have to finish my BC415 clone.....LOL. J/K
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post #400 of 456 Old 05-07-2014, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Marty have you seen the DIY thread?

Not trying to be rude but curious is all. Tom has posted there a few times and there is a WEALTH of knowledge there. After reading that thread a few times I have a much better grasp on what is going on in a SH. The thread gets you in the ball park of what to do. The rest will be experimenting. So it CAN be done. I would much prefer that someone just takes a stab at it and tries to help others do their own. I dont want to take anything away from Tom. The SH idea is with Tom and Mike or whatever his name is. SO while Tom may want to shed some light on certain things I think he has probably shared more than Mike would want shared. IDK this for sure just thinking from a business point of view.

So many people have made prototypes here and there of SH like designs. I am sure others could build something of their own and if they stick with it and keep at it have something there very proud of. I myself would be happy to have 80% of what a SH can do. I dont expect a complete copy. I just love to build stuff and enjoy learning as I go. Between JLH, Patrick Bateman, Speaker Scott, Bwaslo and a hand full of others I am looking forward to someday starting my SH build. I just have to finish my BC415 clone.....LOL. J/K

No, I have not read the thread you are referring to. Can you tell me where to find it? Is it very long, and if so, can you tell me the best parts/pages/post to read?
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post #401 of 456 Old 05-07-2014, 07:25 AM
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LOL......Yes it is long. Within the thread are details on CD differences from phase plug to exit, distance for placement of mids according to frequency and so on and so on. I will have to go over the thread quite a few times to find which parts matter most.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88237-suitable-midrange-cone-bandpass-mid-unity-horn.html

157pages but I think there are only 10 posts per page. I have followed so many threads over there and "what is needed," to make synergy has been mentioned quite a few times. I dont remember every thread just the information is all. I am not one to ask questions though because while I understand what is going on and what I may need I have a hard time explaining it to others. JLH over there has been a huge help. Patrick and all his experiments are huge help to me and learning all this information. I cant wait to make a few SH designs using a CD and 2" mids such as Patrick did. I would most likely learn quite a bit from the failure.

I might just have to try and build a small design soon with all this talk. I already have quite a few 3.3" drivers I may be able to use. Might not be ideal but failure is the best way for me to learn. And I already have the drivers.
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post #402 of 456 Old 05-07-2014, 08:05 AM
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Marty, it's 32 pages long going back to '09. I suggest you start at the beginning 😉

Here's the link http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88237-suitable-midrange-cone-bandpass-mid-unity-horn.html
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post #403 of 456 Old 05-19-2014, 04:23 PM
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IMO, it's simple. The cool band-pass distortion lowering, the tidy phase response, the point source approach, those are all sought after attributes. But the key ... IMO, is combining these with well executed, wide band controlled directivity.


That combination is nice, but for us HT application users, it doesn't really pay off entirely, until it's placed into a room. That's when the magic happens ... relative to loudspeakers we typically encounter. The huge psycho-acoustic payoff is a proper ITDG, or Initial Time Delay Gap. This gap quantifies the time difference between the arrival of the initial direct wave, and first strong reflection ... at the LP.

The Danley cabs take some of the room distortions ... out of the picture.

Simply enabling our hearing process to get a good clean exposure to the recorded event, is so important for intelligibility, and for proper resolution of the phantom acoustic image. Unfortunately our rooms are so good at superimposing their characteristics over the top of the recording. The last thing we want is to over-lay another spatial environment atop the environment that's so well captured by the recording's engineering team.


The headphone effect you mentioned once before, this is it. We're so used to being bathed in smeared detail from the lateral, side-wall energy, being exposed to a nice clear presentation can be revelatory. It's attainable with well executed acoustic environment ... but that means not EQ'ing or altering the sidewall energy. Ideally, the sidewall contribution needs to be linear above the transition frequency. The design and user placement of the Synergy, helps facilitate this.


The only downside that I hear pointed at the Synergy designs, is somewhat ragged FR. How much would that impact the HT enthusiast? I don't know, ... I've heard the design and liked them. Can't have everything I guess. What they do right, they do very right. Very low distortion, both from the loudspeaker and the room.


As stated, the Cats and the JTRs also have strong attributes. It's all good. cool.gif

(Cats-bass and mid-bass, none better, DSP w/top to bottom time alignment and coherency ...smooth non fatiguing all the way up SPL)
(JTRs-very high quality compression HF with pattern control, value)

Of course all that's my experience. I hope to experience the big JTR-215HTs next weekend.








dgage, that's funny you mention that about your son, I can relate.

My 14yo son, is really beginning to get into audio ... I love it. He did a science fair project a month or so ago, about the basic importance of the loudspeaker enclosure, relative to low frequencies. He wanted to include several visual aids, etc, so I showed him what to do with measurements etc., he learned a lot,... very cool.




Below is a couple images of his project, essentially the focus was the importance of the enclosure assuring the back-wave wouldn't corrupt the primary output;










Notnyt is right, the JBLs are phenomenal value for HT, and often overlooked. He likes them, that's good enough for me ... he's not much on hype.

jbrown15, I wouldn't worry about diaphragm material. Yeah, there may be subtle differences, especially at the limits, but the acoustic distortions the room imposes should entirely swamp your immediate concern, IMO. smile.gif

Besides, nobody has designed, built, and sold more pro loudspeakers than JBL. They've steadily poured into R&D, their stuff reflects it. The 4722 seems to be an incredible sweet-spot in pricing/value/performance.

Thanks

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post #404 of 456 Old 05-23-2014, 01:29 AM
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Ivan is Danley going to make a Home Theater Sub?
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post #405 of 456 Old 05-23-2014, 06:29 AM
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My youngest is a 14 year old boy. Fun age. They grow up fast. We play tennis together.

Exactly right, great age.




Kutlow, they already have subs ideal for HT.

?

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post #406 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 07:59 AM
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So, just a fun little update, it seems Danley has several new products that they plan on announcing this week I know no more than that at this point so don't ask....

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post #407 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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So, just a fun little update, it seems Danley has several new products that they plan on announcing this week I know no more than that at this point so don't ask....
Come on...can you at least mention if one of them is similar in size to a SM60f? Do you like torturing people?
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post #408 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 10:24 AM
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Lol yep obviously he does! JK but I hope some are big and dig low although I'm betting they are indeed similar to the 60s. I want something like the 64s bad!!! I've been doing a for sale search for over a month now with no luck. 3 sh64s would place my a$$ in the seat of the truck/van to just about anywhere lol.
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post #409 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 12:06 PM
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Where will Danley announce this?? I'm still waiting for my SM60F demo in the next two weeks sometime. If there is a HT version coming well I guess that will be it...or will it?
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They are announcing at infocomm.

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post #411 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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They are announcing at infocomm.
I don't want to see any more posts from you until I see something official. Cruel man! Just cruel!
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post #412 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 04:36 PM
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(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #413 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Good one Beast.

One thing I'm worried about with them announcing new products at Infocomm is it doesn't seem to be a place where an HT speaker would be announced. I really don't know much about Infocomm other than what I just looked up so I hope I'm wrong.
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post #414 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 09:47 PM
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Good one Beast.

One thing I'm worried about with them announcing new products at Infocomm is it doesn't seem to be a place where an HT speaker would be announced. I really don't know much about Infocomm other than what I just looked up so I hope I'm wrong.
The point is that they're coming out with new (and hopefully affordable) products!

Speaking of new products, how's that riser coming along?
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post #415 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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The point is that they're coming out with new (and hopefully affordable) products!

Speaking of new products, how's that riser coming along?
Doesn't help if those new products are designed for Lambeau Field. Might as well not have new products...IMO.

Regarding the riser, I'm looking to sell my UXL-18s to my father and if he wants to do that, I'm getting an HS-24 to go along with my 3 LMS-5400s.
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post #416 of 456 Old 06-17-2014, 10:23 PM
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Doesn't help if those new products are designed for Lambeau Field. Might as well not have new products...IMO.
Touché, didn't think about that😐

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Regarding the riser, I'm looking to sell my UXL-18s to my father and if he wants to do that, I'm getting an HS-24 to go along with my 3 LMS-5400s.
Couldn't resist the 24 huh? Can't blame you, wish I had the space.

You mean you didn't just give him the 18s for Father's Day?😁
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post #417 of 456 Old 06-18-2014, 07:18 AM
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Good one Beast.

One thing I'm worried about with them announcing new products at Infocomm is it doesn't seem to be a place where an HT speaker would be announced. I really don't know much about Infocomm other than what I just looked up so I hope I'm wrong.
Very true, but we all know they have been hard at work for a while on the 60f-HT or whatever they are going to call it, and even though infocomm is more commercial application based, it might not be a bad time to show off a speaker that will surprise most of their regular clientele and entice them to be considered for smaller venue or home use. Some of those guys have probably never even considered putting something like an sh50 or T112 in a home environment....Who would do that?

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post #418 of 456 Old 06-18-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Very true, but we all know they have been hard at work for a while on the 60f-HT or whatever they are going to call it, and even though infocomm is more commercial application based, it might not be a bad time to show off a speaker that will surprise most of their regular clientele and entice them to be considered for smaller venue or home use. Some of those guys have probably never even considered putting something like an sh50 or T112 in a home environment....Who would do that?
One would have to be a little nuts. Besides, it'd probably sound like $hit anyway💩
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post #419 of 456 Old 06-18-2014, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
One would have to be a little nuts. Besides, it'd probably sound like $hit anyway
If I hadn't heard it with my own ears, I wouldn't have known they would be in the best theater I've ever heard. It's probably the 8 SI18s though.
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post #420 of 456 Old 06-18-2014, 01:14 PM
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How the hell am I supposed to learn anything with all this yackin' going on.
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