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post #61 of 440 Old 04-20-2014, 07:37 PM
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Damn
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post #62 of 440 Old 04-20-2014, 09:45 PM
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Tell me about it, I hate it here too!

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post #63 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

So since you've had a lot more time than I to dial in your 212s, how are they doing now? Would you still flirt with a Danley offering?


Possibly...I couldn't get them to sound just like I wanted but all I tried was placement, I didn't try EQ. I did have a peak at 1khz that may very well have accounted for the fatigue.

Still loving the 212's - they continue to be hard to turn off every time I listen to them and I've had them for 1.5 years.
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post #64 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Possibly...I couldn't get them to sound just like I wanted but all I tried was placement, I didn't try EQ. I did have a peak at 1khz that may very well have accounted for the fatigue.

Still loving the 212's - they continue to be hard to turn off every time I listen to them and I've had them for 1.5 years.

haha, quiet listening late Saturday night, I felt this same way when I woke up at around 4:00 and realized I had drifted off enjoying my setup. I had been asleep for at least 2 hours, haha.

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post #65 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

haha, quiet listening late Saturday night, I felt this same way when I woke up at around 4:00 and realized I had drifted off enjoying my setup. I had been asleep for at least 2 hours, haha.

Ha, I'm betting that won't be the last time that happens!
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post #66 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 08:58 AM
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Oh and it wasn't the first either.

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post #67 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Damn
You are located in Danleyvile. You can go listen to all of it.

I agree with DD that the 215's might be that speaker and could be the best of both worlds.

I was chatting with my wife the other night during a movie and we got on the subject that all the equipment I have now will be going in the new theater room. She then said I hope your going to put a system in the living room so she can watch TV and movies when not in the theater. biggrin.gif

I then had a little celebration inside myself for minute and started to think real hard about maybe new speakers for the theater. The 215rt's or the 210rt's might be in my near future. I am also waiting to see what the new PSA speakers are going to be. I chatted with Tom a few times and he is
not giving me much on the specs yet, but said the new speakers are going to be nothing fancy but high efficiency with good components. He is working on crossovers now and should have some more info soon. Something to watch.

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post #68 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

You are located in Danleyvile. You can go listen to all of it.

True, just rarely have time to make it up there.

Beast, any update on when y'all might come down to danley?
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post #69 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

We are working on a Sm60 size/style product specifically for the home market.

I'll be on alert for these.

If the size/style is the same is it safe to assume the driver complement will be oriented more toward SQ over SPL and robustness?

Where in the queue of all those projects are these priority-wise, i.e. can you hazard a guess as to when they would be available, roughly?

Noah
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post #70 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

True, just rarely have time to make it up there.

Beast, any update on when y'all might come down to danley?

Nope, I would like to perhaps sometime this summer, or early fall or something. I am pretty open after the first week of May so I can see what works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'll be on alert for these.

If the size/style is the same is it safe to assume the driver complement will be oriented more toward SQ over SPL and robustness?

Where in the queue of all those projects are these priority-wise, i.e. can you hazard a guess as to when they would be available, roughly?

I know Tom was ironing out the last details last I heard from Ivan a couple months ago.

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post #71 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I know Tom was ironing out the last details last I heard from Ivan a couple months ago.

Great!

Noah
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post #72 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'll be on alert for these.

If the size/style is the same is it safe to assume the driver complement will be oriented more toward SQ over SPL and robustness?

Where in the queue of all those projects are these priority-wise, i.e. can you hazard a guess as to when they would be available, roughly?

I wonder if SQ and SPL/robustness are necessarily mutually exclusive. If they are, I personally will stick with the sm60f I have now. To be honest, the more time I spend with these the more I'm thinking that they are more than satisfactory just the way they are. Granted, if they can improve the SQ further without compromising SPL, robustness, or SQ at volume, then I would gladly make the switch.

As they are, I find that they are the best speaker I've heard once the volume is anywhere close to reference. The slightly more laid back qualities that make them so pleasurable to listen at or near reference can initially make them seem to have less "pop" or resolution at lower volumes. But my concern is that "brightening" them up for low volume SQ may cause the same issue I have with my JTR 212's, which is a bit too much brightness and edginess at volume with too much content.

Hopefully they can pull off the best of both worlds with their new offerings.
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post #73 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I wonder if SQ and SPL/robustness are necessarily mutually exclusive. If they are, I personally will stick with the sm60f I have now. To be honest, the more time I spend with these the more I'm thinking that they are more than satisfactory just the way they are. Granted, if they can improve the SQ further without compromising SPL, robustness, or SQ at volume, then I would gladly make the switch.

As they are, I find that they are the best speaker I've heard once the volume is anywhere close to reference. The slightly more laid back qualities that make them so pleasurable to listen at or near reference can initially make them seem to have less "pop" or resolution at lower volumes. But my concern is that "brightening" them up for low volume SQ may cause the same issue I have with my JTR 212's, which is a bit too much brightness and edginess at volume with too much content.

Hopefully they can pull off the best of both worlds with their new offerings.

I don't know how much reference level listening I would do but I definitely don't want to lose the dynamic nature of these class of speakers. I doubt I will ever go back to "normal" speakers again and I mean the ones that are normally 89/90 db sensitive that start to lose composure when pushed hard.
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post #74 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I wonder if SQ and SPL/robustness are necessarily mutually exclusive. If they are, I personally will stick with the sm60f I have now. To be honest, the more time I spend with these the more I'm thinking that they are more than satisfactory just the way they are. Granted, if they can improve the SQ further without compromising SPL, robustness, or SQ at volume, then I would gladly make the switch.

Do you think you're getting anywhere close to their SPL limit/audible distortion?
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The slightly more laid back qualities that make them so pleasurable to listen at or near reference can initially make them seem to have less "pop" or resolution at lower volumes. But my concern is that "brightening" them up for low volume SQ may cause the same issue I have with my JTR 212's, which is a bit too much brightness and edginess at volume with too much content.

I didn't realize they had that quality, which is exactly my preference and makes them even more desirable.

By SQ I didn't mean tonal balance, I meant refined upper mid/treble like the best domes, ribbons, and AMT's have.

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post #75 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 02:17 PM
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Noah, there was a GTG blind audition, whereby the JTR Noesis, Danley SM60, Seaton Catalyst, and Selah Game Changer (a Keele CBT array), were all auditioned blindly ... it was a great time with interesting results. The Danley did very well.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512849/january-18th-loudspeaker-gtg-results-thread

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post #76 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Do you think you're getting anywhere close to their SPL limit/audible distortion?
I didn't realize they had that quality, which is exactly my preference and makes them even more desirable.

By SQ I didn't mean tonal balance, I meant refined upper mid/treble like the best domes, ribbons, and AMT's have.

Funny thing, is dgage (david) mentioned several times while getting his ultras together that he was mad impressed with the sound of the 50's at casual volume when he was in front of the theater near the speakers. We were probably only at -30 to -35 at that point and he mentioned how well they sounded, but he was also 2 feet from the speakers during that time biggrin.gif

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post #77 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Do you think you're getting anywhere close to their SPL limit/audible distortion?

Hard to say. All I can say for sure is they are effortless till the point where the well being of my hearing is my concern. And they do it in a way my 212's are not capable of pulling off. The port holes in the horn and their effect on limiting driver produced harmonics is not a marketing gimmick. It is notable and one of the attributes that makes these so addicting.

For instance, last night I was cranking Stevie Nicks singing a live version of Landslide and the midbass of her vocals were washing over me in a way that literally felt like her breath was coming out of my speakers and washing across the room and over my body. It was the most intimate and visceral reproduction of that song I've ever heard. It was so crazy loud yet crazy clean with a tonal balance that is nearly unchanged from lower volumes. Similar experiences with clean live Jazz playback as well.

I have listened to this song with my 212's many times and they simply can not match the incredible midbass texture or lack of change as volume is increased. The 212's remain clean at these volumes but the Danley's have shown me that the brightness changes I heard from the 212's when cranking them were not from my ear's reaction to the volume, but likely driver harmonics.

I'm not trying to wax poetic here, but I don't know any other way to describe the differences I hear compared to another very exceptional speaker, my 212's.

I also think that the folks on this thread are all keenly aware that these are MY impressions in MY room and in comparison to my very familiar JTR 212's, but for other folks that wander in here, your mileage or impressions may vary. biggrin.gif. It's difficult to adequately describe speaker differences without those descriptions coming across as hyperbole, but those are the thoughts and impressions during my listening. They're not gospel or buying advice. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

By SQ I didn't mean tonal balance, I meant refined upper mid/treble like the best domes, ribbons, and AMT's have.

At or near reference I personally don't find fault with these speakers. Upper, mid, treble is everything I could ask for from a speaker, not just good enough but everything on my checklist. Fine texture, clarity, resolution, involving - all there.

Can they compete with those designs at low volumes, definitely not.

But to be honest, I have been listening to compression driver designs for so long now, and prefer their sound, that I might not be the best person to answer that question for you.

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post #78 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 03:56 PM
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Dgage, I completely understand your thought process here of wanting the best of both worlds. When I had the SH 50's I kept thinking if only I could combine the sound I love with my 212's with the unreal soundstage of the Danley's then I would have the perfect speaker.

One more characteristic of the Danley's that really impressed me. Their consistency of sound throughout the room. No matter where I would sit or move to the sound didn't seem to change. Now, the measurements didn't back this up but subjectively I know what I heard.

It was interesting, of the 6-7 guys that heard the comparison it was a 50/50 split on preference.

It was 212HT preference by a small landslide for me - after my couple hour demo session with the SH-50's vs the 212HT at carp's. But hey - it's cool that we all like different stuff - makes the hobby more interesting. I learned at a dlbeck meet that you can have two enthusiastic avsforum guys sit right next to each other and actively engage in a listening test at a speaker audition and both completely and madly rave about the opposite speaker after a blind A/B demo session. It happened to be nearly a 50/50 split for the music section with the Salk vs. the 212HT. To my ears the 212HT was superior by a large landslide, but I couldn't help but observe that there were those equally as passionate about the sound of the Salk after the blind audition. The take away is there isn't one of these two designs (Danley vs JTR) that is clearly superior to all listeners.

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post #79 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'll be on alert for these.

If the size/style is the same is it safe to assume the driver complement will be oriented more toward SQ over SPL and robustness?

Where in the queue of all those projects are these priority-wise, i.e. can you hazard a guess as to when they would be available, roughly?

I PM'd Ivan 7 weeks ago and he said "it is still being worked on". I don't see the home version happening soon. I will hear them next month and if I like them I will just order the current version.
Now if there was a mega group buy, then a more accurate time frame might surface, maybe.
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post #80 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 04:17 PM
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post #81 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Noah, there was a GTG blind audition, whereby the JTR Noesis, Danley SM60, Seaton Catalyst, and Selah Game Changer (a Keele CBT array), were all auditioned blindly ... it was a great time with interesting results. The Danley did very well.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512849/january-18th-loudspeaker-gtg-results-thread

Thanks, I saw that but will peruse it more closely.
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At or near reference I personally don't find fault with these speakers...Can they compete with those designs at low volumes, definitely not.

Hmm, that's puzzling.

It was understandable with the ContrBass sub which had some mechanical stiction, but I can't think of any source for hysteresis in the SM60, whose drivers have conventional suspensions.
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I PM'd Ivan 7 weeks ago and he said "it is still being worked on". I don't see the home version happening soon.

Perhaps you're not up to date?:
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I know Tom was ironing out the last details last I heard from Ivan a couple months ago.

Noah
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post #82 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Hmm, that's puzzling.

It was understandable with the ContrBass sub which had some mechanical stiction, but I can't think of any source for hysteresis in the SM60, whose drivers have conventional suspensions.

Not sure the source of the puzzlement.

But if I'm reading between the lines correctly, perhaps you may have read that I personally find no fault with these speakers and conflated that I said these speakers have no faults. The former is true, the latter is clearly not. That may have caused you cognitive dissonance. tongue.gif

I'm not aware of any design that is in the latter category.

If the fact that deficits I find in these speakers dissappear for me at volume doesn't make any sense, someone with a bit more technical knowledge in electromechanical acoustics and audiology would have to explain it. smile.gif

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post #83 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 05:37 PM
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They are here on AVS as well, along with the dude's Legacy Whispers at $12k for the pair!!!! eek.gif I just wanna hear some at one point, not enough to sell my car for though....

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post #84 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

The "phantom center" is something the Danley products excel in. When the phase is well behaved-and the sound comes from a single source (ie not separated drivers), the imaging can be quite scary. Very often have to walk up to the center speakers "just to be sure" it is not on.

When you have cancellations (like from a line source/line array etc) you simply cannot get the phantom image as good as a single source of sound.

Not really true - I have heard both arrays and conventional speakers that have more center-fill than the Danley design (not that I think your speakers are bad in that respect - but limiting the horizontal coverage with a horn will always have some effect on phantom images).

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post #85 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I wonder if SQ and SPL/robustness are necessarily mutually exclusive. .
It depends on what you call "robustness".j If you want some great sounding speakers that can produce over 150dB, then the J1 or J3 will do that.

If that is not enough-then the Caleb (J5) can produce "studio monitor" type sound at over 160dB. Yet it still sounds great with only 0.001 watt input.

Overall my favorite Danley cabinet is the J1. Great sound-tons of impact/punch and clear clean highs.

That is the reason the J1 (and J3) are quickly becoming the "standard" in large scale sound reinforcement.

We have 1 college stadium that seats around 33,000 and the ENTIRE PA is a SINGLE J1.

There are a number of 50,000ish stadiums that use 2 J1s only.

The 100,000 seaters need a few more. Mostly J3s in that area.

The first stadium with the J5 is being worked on as I type-so it will be up and running by the fall football schedule. With others in the planning for future stadiums.

SH50s and SM60F and SM96s are the main PA being installed for a world famous horse race next month. Along with TH212 subs.

Raising the bar on large scale sound smile.gif

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post #86 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

If the fact that deficits I find in these speakers dissappear for me at volume doesn't make any sense, someone with a bit more technical knowledge in electromechanical acoustics and audiology would have to explain it. smile.gif

Perfectly clear to me - you turn up the speakers, the midbass rattles your brain, you forget what you're doing, you regain cognizant control, and then think you've been mesmerized for X amount of time. biggrin.gif
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post #87 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post

Not really true - I have heard both arrays and conventional speakers that have more center-fill than the Danley design (not that I think your speakers are bad in that respect - but limiting the horizontal coverage with a horn will always have some effect on phantom images).

You are the first person that I have heard that says that.

Everybody always talks about how great the phantom image is.

Of course it depends on how well the horn itself is designed. A poorly designed horn (like most products out there) will not only sound bad-but will have bad polar response and poor imaging.

What makes the phantom image so great is the simple fact that the sound is coming from a single source-not separated drivers (like all other designs) so it acts as a single driver system-but with a wider freq response and greater output.

But every body is entitled to their opinion. Just don't lump the Danley products in with "other horns" or other products that call themselves "point sources" but they are actually not.

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post #88 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

You are the first person that I have heard that says that.

Everybody always talks about how great the phantom image is.

Of course it depends on how well the horn itself is designed. A poorly designed horn (like most products out there) will not only sound bad-but will have bad polar response and poor imaging.

What makes the phantom image so great is the simple fact that the sound is coming from a single source-not separated drivers (like all other designs) so it acts as a single driver system-but with a wider freq response and greater output.

But every body is entitled to their opinion. Just don't lump the Danley products in with "other horns" or other products that call themselves "point sources" but they are actually not.

I would double that for sure. I have had to literally convince most folks that have demo'd the Danleys so far that there is no center channel on by showing them the output format on the Marantz, or sticking their head in the middle of the center, which still at that point you get a decent stereo image from the sh50's, with your head almost parallel to them all the way at the front of the room. The phantom image is the most remarkable I have ever heard without a doubt. Second isn't even close.

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post #89 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Funny thing, is dgage (david) mentioned several times while getting his ultras together that he was mad impressed with the sound of the 50's at casual volume when he was in front of the theater near the speakers. We were probably only at -30 to -35 at that point and he mentioned how well they sounded, but he was also 2 feet from the speakers during that time biggrin.gif

Absolutely true. I was going to use a car analogy but Beast doesn't like that so I guess I'll pass. smile.gif

Some people say speaker break-in is less about any mechanical loosening of the speakers but more an issue of our brains getting used to a certain sound. Our minds have amazing memories including the sense of smell that can remind us of things from our childhood. It is also amazing what we can get used to, which is to also say our minds can get used to a given speaker, especially in the range we are discussing.

For me specifically, I liked the Danley's when I first heard them and I was setting up my subs right in front of the speakers. Now, I wasn't as familiar with the music, the music was likely streamed or lower quality than Beast's critical listening material, and the music was more house music than what most of us would listen to critically. Then again, I do very little critical listening.

It wasn't until we put the Danleys up against the 212 that I really got to hear both and decided I'd like a combo speaker.
  • I absolutely loved the huge soundstage of the Danley
  • I liked the vocals, mid, and upper range of the Noesis a little better
  • I liked the amount of midbass from the Danleys but thought it was not as articulate. NOTE: They were playing with the HS24 at the time, which had not been optimized or EQd to work well with the Danleys. I take that articulate statement with a huge grain of salt due to the setup.

So based on my listening, the Danley Noesis would be the perfect speaker for me, or more accurately the Danley SM60 size speaker with a better compression driver. And yes you can say all day that a speaker engineer could take X and make it as good as Y. Based on my statements and observations, a better compression drive is all I (me, myself) feel is missing from the Danley. And if said speaker was developed, I'd get down to GA pretty damn quickly to hear it.

With that said, and going back to my previous comments about speaker "breakin", I'm sure I could get used to the sonic signature of the Danleys and love them as much as Beast (and apparently Gooddoc is starting to). Then again, I can get used to the Noesis 212 as well, especially if I'm able to use my subs to get me more solid midbass up to 120 or so.

As Beast said, these are world class speakers. And as Archaea (I think) recently stated, multiple people could hear the same speakers at the same time and come up with completely different preferences. Good thing there are many speaker makers.
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post #90 of 440 Old 04-21-2014, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought I'd add. I wasn't thinking about my Noesis when Beast played the Metallica bluray. As I've said, that was a magnificent demonstration of a great system, of which the Danley's played a major part.
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