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post #1 of 440 Old 04-17-2014, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Many of us at Beast's GTG were able to hear the JTR Noesis 212HT-LPs directly against the larger Danley SH50. Many of us came out of that GTG saying I'd like a Danley Noesis.

Here is my ideal speaker after listening to both:
Huge soundstage of the Danley
Midbass authority of the Danley
High-end of the Noesis
Midrange of the Noesis
Articulate midbass of the Noesis

So I've been thinking about it and what do you guys think about a DIY speaker shaped like the Danley with the compression driver (will look up model later) from the Noesis 212 and 4 8/10/12" drivers for midrange/midbass.

So my questions are:
Thoughts?
How hard would it be to make a crossover to integrate the 212 compression driver and 4 mid ranges?
Any recommendations for 4 strong midbasses in the 8-12" range that would cover the 500-60Hz range and match the sensitivity of the compression driver?

Thanks.

David
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post #2 of 440 Old 04-17-2014, 08:01 PM
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Those were the best two sounding speakers I've heard in a long time, maybe even ever. I'm thinking a Tux 1099 or Sentinel v2 for myself, but who knows what some of these guys here can dream up!
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post #3 of 440 Old 04-17-2014, 08:17 PM
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Bottom line is to dump the 212's 2-way CD (4594 IIRC) in the back of a horn and scrap the midranges that Danley uses, then stick with the same or better 12" mids that are strategically placed in the horn just as they are now. Honestly, I feel like the 50's already have the most articulate and impressive midrange and midbass that one could ask for. The only thing I would change is the extension up top, but that is just my ears. I feel like with a little more quality material you might change your mind on the former two things if we A/B'd them again. Especially if you had the chance to hear the Danleys (close to) full range smile.gif
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post #4 of 440 Old 04-17-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I forgot to mention that I want them to be less than 16 or 20" deep. smile.gif So your 50s are out but the 60 format...maybe. Thinking 4 Eminence Pro 12s similar to what the 212 uses in a cube box with the whole front of the cube a horn like the Danley. But where the SH50 tapers at the back, I'm thinking square at the back to make enough room for the 4 12s. Just thinking out loud.
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post #5 of 440 Old 04-17-2014, 10:07 PM
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I'm not qualified to comment on whether this is possible, but I do know someone other than the gifted designers we have around here would have to fund such a venture. Those coax compression drivers are NOT cheap, and even building a Danley style test box is far from a trivial exercise. Probably several prototype boxes if I properly grasp the iterative nature of modelling the bandpass ports, drilling holes of different sizes and shapes, measure, scratch your head, repeat... Plus the Danley designs are patented, so no flat packs or anything like that down the road.

Might be amazing though if it could be pulled off.
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post #6 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 07:22 AM
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Or you could just buy the JTR 215RT. It checks all your boxes. wink.gif One of the best I've heard.

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post #7 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 11:57 AM
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Aren't the seating cats pretty close.
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post #8 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by datranz View Post

Aren't the seating cats pretty close.

My wife is allergic to cats so no sitting or standing cats allowed. Seaton Cats though, I wish I could hear some. I'm sorry, bad joke, but a bad joke is better than no jokes. smile.gif

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Or you could just buy the JTR 215RT. It checks all your boxes. wink.gif One of the best I've heard.

If I had the room, I'd put my kids into hard labor (****, they barely know what soft labor is, much less hard) to help me afford them but alas my current living room theater does not afford the space. Damn, I thought the 212 was a huge speaker to put in my room...little did I know. smile.gif
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post #9 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Or you could just buy the JTR 215RT. It checks all your boxes. wink.gif One of the best I've heard.


Phase linear? Full on point source? Not quite. The horn loading down to 300hz or wherever it is, not a bad start, but there is still something distinct with the Danleys that I can't really put in writing. Call it different crossover wizardry between the two designs, but it yields something completely different IMO. YMMV.

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I'm not qualified to comment on whether this is possible, but I do know someone other than the gifted designers we have around here would have to fund such a venture. Those coax compression drivers are NOT cheap, and even building a Danley style test box is far from a trivial exercise. Probably several prototype boxes if I properly grasp the iterative nature of modelling the bandpass ports, drilling holes of different sizes and shapes, measure, scratch your head, repeat... Plus the Danley designs are patented, so no flat packs or anything like that down the road.

Might be amazing though if it could be pulled off.

Agreed, I know it took YEARS for Danley to get his designs right, and multiple generations going back to the unity design. A DIY venture is certainly a fun idea, but agreed, far from a trivial exercise for sure!

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post #10 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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So I was doing more research and I know I don't have the knowledge currently to do such an intricate project. I could learn but I don't really have the time to invest that much. It would be awesome if I did though as there is a ton to learn.

One of the questions I had was why can't I just get a big horn with the coaxial compression driver in back and fire 4 12"ers into the horn from each side of the horn. That might or might not work. I knew Danleys have a band pass baffle with holes cut to let in the midrange and midbass but I'm sure I don't understand the whole reasons other than a band pass that helps control the frequencies and time coherence with the horn. I read through part of this thread and it was pretty damn informative, especially page 12.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1323104/danley-diy-synergy-horn-kit

Another interesting thing I gleamed from that thread was that the SH50 is (one of) the primary speakers Danley is known for. Well, one of the things I didn't care for on the Danleys is a somewhat muddled midbass section, at least compared to the Noesis, as well as a rolled off upper range. The Noesis IMO was more articulate.

Couple the midbass with discussion in the link I posted above about the bandpass cut outs potentially creating some issues in the midbass/midrange and I start to wonder if there would be some inherent challenges in getting a Danley type speaker to have ultra clean midbass. Now, my listening observations are based on a single listening session at Beasts during the GTG and may not have been optimized after all of the changes in equipment that day.

What I'd really like is the Noesis sound with the Danley soundstage and more midbass output...in a smaller than 215 size.

I'll continue to look at this on the side and continue to increase my knowledge and maybe I'll have the skills one day to build such a project but without help, I don't think I can pull this one off on my own.
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post #11 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 01:27 PM
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Seating Cats? Damn auto correct ...!

The seating cats are quite different. They are sealed, actively crossover'ed and DSP contoured, plus they possess an 8" pro coax w/1.4" compression HF driver.

The primary difference is the big JTR is full range, the Cats can be DSP config'd to operate full range (switch), but typically they're limited LF to be used in a bass managed system. The Cats and JTR also differ in their respective ways the midband us handled. The Cats are entirely point source down to around 180hz-200hz, enabling them to be used in both the largest, multiple row HT, all the way down to very close, near-field application/listening distances. I own some Cats and currently am listening at such distances.

The new JTR-215s, by all accounts, are also fantastic products with a uniquely of attributes. Both companies approach their offerings differently.

Both JTR and Seaton are exhibiting at the Axpona HiFi Show, next weekend in Chicago, ... I know I'll be there.

Danley, JTR, Seaton, all quite different in execution, yet all superb stuff. They all possess their respective unique strong suits.

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post #12 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

What I'd really like is the Noesis sound with the Danley soundstage and more midbass output...in a smaller than 215 size.
I wonder how the JTR 210RT will sound? On right . . .

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post #13 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Bottom line is to dump the 212's 2-way CD (4594 IIRC) in the back of a horn and scrap the midranges that Danley uses, then stick with the same or better 12" mids that are strategically placed in the horn just as they are now. Honestly, I feel like the 50's already have the most articulate and impressive midrange and midbass that one could ask for. The only thing I would change is the extension up top, but that is just my ears. I feel like with a little more quality material you might change your mind on the former two things if we A/B'd them again. Especially if you had the chance to hear the Danleys (close to) full range smile.gif

Beast, if you're offering the opportunity to listen to that awesome theater sound system of yours, I'd jump at the chance. But at a minimum I'd have to bring my 10 year old son. He was upset I wasn't taking him until I told him it was at someone's house and I had to invite myself as it was. smile.gif
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post #14 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 04:55 PM
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post #15 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:01 PM
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You guys should demo some big jbl's wink.gif

Which ones would you recommend?

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post #16 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:02 PM
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Which ones would you recommend?

4722
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post #17 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:03 PM
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4722

Haha when I google search them a picture of your room with your old setup pops up!...lol

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post #18 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:05 PM
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Haha when I google search them a picture of your room with your old setup pops up!...lol

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/screenarray-systems-2-way/4722_4722n

Note, page there lists the 26SH-1 as the drivers in the bottom. It's a typo and should read 265H-1. They've been updated, for a while now, and come with dark drivers like mine. They now use the 265H-2.

The spec sheet is accurate, but uses an older image.
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post #19 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:06 PM
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4722

I was under the impression that a titanium diaphragm in a compression driver would be less then desirable in HT use?

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post #20 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:10 PM
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I was under the impression that a titanium diaphragm in a compression driver would be less then desirable in HT use?

*shrug* no complaints here. Sound great to me.

Check out Imagic's post regarding the speakers. He's heard plenty, no complaints there.
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post #21 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/screenarray-systems-2-way/4722_4722n

Note, page there lists the 26SH-1 as the drivers in the bottom. It's a typo and should read 265H-1. They've been updated, for a while now, and come with dark drivers like mine. They now use the 265H-2.

The spec sheet is accurate, but uses an older image.

Should I go back and emphasize my size limitations? smile.gif I'm sure they sound awesome though. For me, I'd have to take out the couches and replace them with loveseats to be able to fit those bad boys. smile.gif And for those that say the JTRs aren't pretty speakers, those make the JTRs look like prom queens. smile.gif But I know the living room wasn't on the designers mind when they were created.

And damn Notnyt, I was just on Long Island this week for work; stayed at the Residence Inn near the Islip Courthouse. You could have invited me over to hear the monsters. biggrin.gif But I don't see myself going back anytime soon.
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post #22 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Should I go back and emphasize my size limitations? smile.gif I'm sure they sound awesome though. For me, I'd have to take out the couches and replace them with loveseats to be able to fit those bad boys. smile.gif And for those that say the JTRs aren't pretty speakers, those make the JTRs look like prom queens. smile.gif But I know the living room wasn't on the designers mind when they were created.

And damn Notnyt, I was just on Long Island this week for work; stayed at the Residence Inn near the Islip Courthouse. You could have invited me over to hear the monsters. biggrin.gif But I don't see myself going back anytime soon.

Should have sent a PM wink.gif
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post #23 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Phase linear? Full on point source? Not quite. The horn loading down to 300hz or wherever it is, not a bad start, but there is still something distinct with the Danleys that I can't really put in writing. Call it different crossover wizardry between the two designs, but it yields something completely different IMO. YMMV.
Agreed, I know it took YEARS for Danley to get his designs right, and multiple generations going back to the unity design. A DIY venture is certainly a fun idea, but agreed, far from a trivial exercise for sure!


IMO, it's simple. The cool band-pass distortion lowering, the tidy phase response, the point source approach, those are all sought after attributes. But the key ... IMO, is combining these with well executed, wide band controlled directivity.


That combination is nice, but for us HT application users, it doesn't really pay off entirely, until it's placed into a room. That's when the magic happens ... relative to loudspeakers we typically encounter. The huge psycho-acoustic payoff is a proper ITDG, or Initial Time Delay Gap. This gap quantifies the time difference between the arrival of the initial direct wave, and first strong reflection ... at the LP.

The Danley cabs take some of the room distortions ... out of the picture.

Simply enabling our hearing process to get a good clean exposure to the recorded event, is so important for intelligibility, and for proper resolution of the phantom acoustic image. Unfortunately our rooms are so good at superimposing their characteristics over the top of the recording. The last thing we want is to over-lay another spatial environment atop the environment that's so well captured by the recording's engineering team.


The headphone effect you mentioned once before, this is it. We're so used to being bathed in smeared detail from the lateral, side-wall energy, being exposed to a nice clear presentation can be revelatory. It's attainable with well executed acoustic environment ... but that means not EQ'ing or altering the sidewall energy. Ideally, the sidewall contribution needs to be linear above the transition frequency. The design and user placement of the Synergy, helps facilitate this.


The only downside that I hear pointed at the Synergy designs, is somewhat ragged FR. How much would that impact the HT enthusiast? I don't know, ... I've heard the design and liked them. Can't have everything I guess. What they do right, they do very right. Very low distortion, both from the loudspeaker and the room.


As stated, the Cats and the JTRs also have strong attributes. It's all good. cool.gif

(Cats-bass and mid-bass, none better, DSP w/top to bottom time alignment and coherency ...smooth non fatiguing all the way up SPL)
(JTRs-very high quality compression HF with pattern control, value)

Of course all that's my experience. I hope to experience the big JTR-215HTs next weekend.








dgage, that's funny you mention that about your son, I can relate.

My 14yo son, is really beginning to get into audio ... I love it. He did a science fair project a month or so ago, about the basic importance of the loudspeaker enclosure, relative to low frequencies. He wanted to include several visual aids, etc, so I showed him what to do with measurements etc., he learned a lot,... very cool.




Below is a couple images of his project, essentially the focus was the importance of the enclosure assuring the back-wave wouldn't corrupt the primary output;










Notnyt is right, the JBLs are phenomenal value for HT, and often overlooked. He likes them, that's good enough for me ... he's not much on hype.

jbrown15, I wouldn't worry about diaphragm material. Yeah, there may be subtle differences, especially at the limits, but the acoustic distortions the room imposes should entirely swamp your immediate concern, IMO. smile.gif

Besides, nobody has designed, built, and sold more pro loudspeakers than JBL. They've steadily poured into R&D, their stuff reflects it. The 4722 seems to be an incredible sweet-spot in pricing/value/performance.

Thanks

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post #24 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 05:56 PM
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Notnyt is right, the JBLs are phenomenal value for HT, and often overlooked. He likes them, that's good enough for me ... he's not much on hype.

jbrown15, I wouldn't worry about diaphragm material. Yeah, there may be subtle differences, especially at the limits, but the acoustic distortions the room imposes should entirely swamp your immediate concern, IMO. smile.gif

Besides, nobody has designed, built, and sold more pro loudspeakers than JBL. They've steadily poured into R&D, their stuff reflects it. The 4722 seems to be an incredible sweet-spot in pricing/value/performance.

Thanks

Since you mention value and I get asked often...

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post #25 of 440 Old 04-18-2014, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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FOH - Awesome project for your kid. I'm sure you felt some pride there! smile.gif

I guess I'm going to have to listen to some Cats at some point. Anybody know if anyone in DC (where I often travel for work) have any Cats I might be able to listen to?
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post #26 of 440 Old 04-19-2014, 04:42 AM
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I love the idea of DIY'ing something like the Seatons or JTR 212's or 215's! Unfortunately, the wood-working skills needed to create the horn are above what the majority of us can do. There is just no way that I could do something like that, and trust me, I have had the hots for those speakers for a while!

Besides, even if i could build the proper horn, then the really hard part would be the crossover, getting the drivers properly integrated, and topping it off with some EQ/DSP to put the icing on the cake!
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post #27 of 440 Old 04-19-2014, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

FOH - Awesome project for your kid. I'm sure you felt some pride there! smile.gif

I guess I'm going to have to listen to some Cats at some point. Anybody know if anyone in DC (where I often travel for work) have any Cats I might be able to listen to?

Yeah, I was proud. He placed third, for the entire school.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I love the idea of DIY'ing something like the Seatons or JTR 212's or 215's! Unfortunately, the wood-working skills needed to create the horn are above what the majority of us can do. There is just no way that I could do something like that, and trust me, I have had the hots for those speakers for a while!

Besides, even if i could build the proper horn, then the really hard part would be the crossover, getting the drivers properly integrated, and topping it off with some EQ/DSP to put the icing on the cake!

That's the advantage of DIY, no time limit ... you could eventually get the fabrication/woodworking right. Now, on the other hand, the skill-set required for proper integration/crossover of a multi-element loudspeaker, that is a tough one. You're right about that.

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post #28 of 440 Old 04-19-2014, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I love the idea of DIY'ing something like the Seatons or JTR 212's or 215's! Unfortunately, the wood-working skills needed to create the horn are above what the majority of us can do. There is just no way that I could do something like that, and trust me, I have had the hots for those speakers for a while!

Besides, even if i could build the proper horn, then the really hard part would be the crossover, getting the drivers properly integrated, and topping it off with some EQ/DSP to put the icing on the cake!

I'm a hobbyist woodworker and a decent one at that so I'm not worried about the cabinet. The first one or two cabinets might be a little rough but after that I'm sure they'd look good. I'd build the prototypes with plywood and maybe MDF but would likely build the final ones out of solid wood to make them look better in a home environment.

I'm worried about 2 things; crossover and band pass openings for the midbasses. Oh yeah, and learning how to measure time delay to get those two items better. I'd like to build a better Danley but that is awful presumptuous as I know Danley has probably forgotten more about audio acoustics than I know. I just think his speakers would be better if he focused on the home theater market and used a better compression driver. That's the way that I think I could make a better driver....I just know I don't have the knowledge to get it done now. Then again, I could learn what I needed to know but I'd have to start the project to get that knowledge.

So maybe this will be a winter project as I'm busy building stuff now.
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post #29 of 440 Old 04-19-2014, 07:46 AM
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Are the new JTR 10 and 15 horns just a straight section with a chamfer? That seems like a downgrade from the 18sounds horns used in the 212 and 228.
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post #30 of 440 Old 04-19-2014, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Are the new JTR 10 and 15 horns just a straight section with a chamfer? That seems like a downgrade from the 18sounds horns used in the 212 and 228.

Except for shear size and low corner of the pattern control.

This is way out of my wheel-house. You're right, the Noesis has a nice smooth contour, but surely the bigger, larger profile helps maintain capability of CD much lower, right?

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