DR-250 stack and Yorkvilles U215's! Which one will I like better? - Page 22 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #631 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 07:34 PM
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Thanks Not, I just sent them an inquiry.

I do wonder though how hard would it be to DIY this? I just have no idea how to do the crossover though. I'm guessing active is easier but I wouldn't even know where to start. I Was thinking about ordering td18's awhile back So maybe add a soes 24 and a compression driver? Is it even worth it though is the question

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post #632 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 07:57 PM
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DIY 4722N:
Horn: JBL part# 365359-001
horn is about $100 or so last check (might be more now):
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Horn%20List/Horn%20List.pdf
Compression driver: 2432H
Woofers are: 265H-2 (the -2 indicates the model not that you need 2 although you do need 2 of them, there are several flavors of the 265H) p/n: 363837-005X
Crossover is part #: 442144-001
PDF with the crossover: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Theatre%20Series/4722N-HF.pdf
crossover schematic attached.
not sure if JBL pro parts is selling direct to public anymore. inquire here: http://www.jblproservice.com/parts.html
4722N description pdf here: http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SS4722_0509.pdf
crossover picture attached as well (I'm pretty sure that is it, not 100%)
cab dimensions and tuning could be determined by measuring the cab and the ports.
looks like the enclosure for the woofers is the 4739, which measures (34.75 in. H x 30.0 in. W x 17.75 in. D). those dimensions suggest about 9 cubic feet internal.
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Theatre%20Series/4739.pdf

note on the 265H-2 woofer. it appears to be listed as having the same specs as the 265H-1, and the replacement cone is the same part number, so I'm not sure if there is any difference. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele%20small%20parameters/theile%20parameters.pdf
looks like it was $376 from jbl pro parts at last check: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducer%20List/Transducer%20List.pdf

the crossover network is for the passive version 4722N, of course. the 4722 can also be run with an active crossover. i think specific tuning (crossover slopes, frequency, eq, and delay) are available from jbl, but i don't have a link (yet).


DIY 4622N:
the predecessor to the 4722N, employed the 2430H compression driver with aluminum diaphragm vs. the titanium diaphragm in the 2432H
and the 2035H woofers in place of the 265H. the 2035H had a copper plated pole piece, so inductance was very low. not sure why this driver was discontinued.
horn is the same 2384 screen array with 1.5" throat.
crossover is different
<more to come>


<reminder to self to include protective caps/values if running active crossovers>
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post #633 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 08:18 PM
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Seems hard to find the 265h. The 2226h is a lot more common. I doubt the woofers are interchangeable with no change to the xover.
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post #634 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
What do you use to drive them and how do you EQ them?

I have the Yorkville U215s for L/C/R and I have recently been doing a lot of different testing with them. Passive/active/different amps/Room EQ/etc.

I was surprised at how different they sound when running active. I also introduced Dirac into the mix as well and that made quite a bit of difference for my room.

One thing I did notice is I ran them off an iNuke amp and they sounded terrible. Muffled, loose base, rolled off high frequencies. They sounded dead. Put them back on an EP2500 and they came back to life. So not sure what's going on there. Had a similar experience with the iNuke on other speakers.
Audyssey XT32
DBX 32

Have used over a dozen different amps with these speakers. However I briefly went back and tried another Inuke 6000 amp with them. And the sound is just like what I remembered from the previous time I tried this combo. Midbass is great. Low end is very strong but not tight. However the highs are muffled and just plain sound terrible. I'm going to switch back to my Crown xli 3500 for now. However my last resort is to go with a Yamaha 7000p.I believe they are a bit overpriced, however their sound quality is well respected at various forums online.

If that combo does not satisfy my 2 channel and all channel music craving I will sell the rest of my system and start fresh. The JBL 4722n will take up abfair amount of space but I don't mind if they kick but in both the ht and music realms.

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post #635 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 08:39 PM
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gmb, have you searched on the p/n: 363837-005X?


$376 from jbl. lol. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Tra...cer%20List.pdf

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post #636 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
Audyssey XT32
DBX 32

Have used over a dozen different amps with these speakers. However I briefly went back and tried another Inuke 6000 amp with them. And the sound is just like what I remembered from the previous time I tried this combo. Midbass is great. Low end is very strong but not tight. However the highs are muffled and just plain sound terrible. I'm going to switch back to my Crown xli 3500 for now. However my last resort is to go with a Yamaha 7000p.I believe they are a bit overpriced, however their sound quality is well respected at various forums online.

If that combo does not satisfy my 2 channel and all channel music craving I will sell the rest of my system and start fresh. The JBL 4722n will take up abfair amount of space but I don't mind if they kick but in both the ht and music realms.
Weren't all of your U215's and U15's whored out (rental speakers)? Have you ever verified that they are all operating properly? In addition to driver operation, there is a known issue with the Unities regarding small breaks occurring on the crossover boards (usually happens due to abuse from the rigors of their intended use over time).

I bought a 3-pack of U15's that were from a fixed installation in a church in Iowa; never gigged or rented out. When they arrived, one of the cabs had an issue with an intermittent BMS CD. I figured at first it was certainly a crossover issue, but ended up tracing it back to a bad diaphragm in the CD.
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post #637 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 09:05 PM
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Would a td-18 and a seos-24/compression driver combo be considered an upgrade to a 4722n or not really.

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post #638 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uopdrmark View Post
I just called performance audio and they said they can no longer give discounts on the jbl cinema speakers so list price is what you get! Anyone know of any other leads?
I am about to order 3 4722N's and was going to ask the same question. uopdrmark, if you have nay luck form member's pm'ing you would you mind forwarding it to me? Thank you.
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post #639 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 09:25 PM
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uo, it sort of depends how high you want to cross the td18.
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...&t=2707#p12287
might not want to run it all the up to ~800hz.
it would also give up the 'second source' which could be better and worse in different ways.
the 24" seos is probably a step back from the screen array in its full glory.
the 2432h compression driver can probably be beat, but then you are off on your own to design the crossover.
so it would pretty much just be a different speaker that could have better performance in some ways and maybe not quite as good in others.

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post #640 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 09:33 PM
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I will definitely post back once I hear from anyone for those looking.

LTD, so it sounds like you think it would be mainly a lateral move, with possibly a smaller soundstage due to seos-24 vs screenarray

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post #641 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 09:47 PM
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with a really big compression driver that could play to 450-500hz or so, it *could* be an upgrade in some ways depending on how well the integration of components went. just a different animal.

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post #642 of 766 Old 01-26-2015, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, round 2, DR-250 stack vs JBL pro MR-825.


Here are the responses and I easily can fix that dip in the DR. The biggest surprise of the day is how easy the JBL's are to drive. I put both centers on a stereo channel of the Adcom amps and I needed to actually turn down the JBL's to match the DR's 5 dBs. Here are the two responses:





The JBL sounds softer to me but during certain male voices you can hear that old horn sound. It becomes nasal sounding briefly. Having said that this JBL rocks! Here are the scores from just me but I have to test all my usual suspects. They are very close for HT center channels at reference.


DR-250 MR825
Detail 1 1
midbass 1 1
feel 1 1
soundstage 1 2
smoothness 1 2
dynamics 1 1


Some things to consider, the JBL's sound softer which gets 1 for smoothness and 1 for detail, however, when that nasal sound hits it quickly becomes a 2. Soundstage as a center is very close and proves my small room don't need too much to get real big sounding. This confirms that the 4722 would sound much bigger than all the rest besides the 4675C. The JBL's are right there with my stacks except when the nasal or horn honk hits which happens only a couple times during my LOTR demo and always with male voices. I mean for $200 this thing rocks and a huge bang for buck. For music that nasal sound would rear it's ugly head more often but only loud.


My question is how would this speaker be easier to drive than my DR's? Maybe the gain on the amp is off? I am running the DR's as mains and the JBL as a center for HT. Oh, at lower volumes the JBL is quite good, I like this JBL better in many areas than the U215. I think I just like the JBL sound. Without that nasal sound I would get 5 right away but for $200 I might not care, maybe.
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post #643 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
uo, it sort of depends how high you want to cross the td18.
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...&t=2707#p12287
might not want to run it all the up to ~800hz.
it would also give up the 'second source' which could be better and worse in different ways.
the 24" seos is probably a step back from the screen array in its full glory.
the 2432h compression driver can probably be beat, but then you are off on your own to design the crossover.
so it would pretty much just be a different speaker that could have better performance in some ways and maybe not quite as good in others.
I wonder how this JBL 2384 waveguide compares to the Seos 24? What is the lowest or optimal frequency that the JBL 2384 waveguide (the one used in this 4722N) can hold the pattern down to? How much does the 2384 waveguide cost?


What if someone wanted to DIY a modified 4722N using a better compression driver on the stock 2384 horn and instead of the 265-2 woofers use two of the 2226's? This is assuming that the builder would be capable of his own crossover design.
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post #644 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
if using a center for movies, not having toe in is probably ok.
with music and no toe in, the sweet spot will be narrowed to folks more or less along the centerline.
and as not mentioned, there would also be more reflections, but those could be mostly fixed with absorbers. @Wrager was running some of these big screenarray horns in his theater and pretty much had them all side-by-side forward facing because of a lack of space behind his screen. maybe he will weigh in how much of a difference he thought going from the center seat to a side was in his setup.
Right you are sir! I have the three 4622's right next to each other behind my screen. I really don't notice any difference when sitting in the side seats vs. MLP. I'll try to do some measurements later in the week. More to your point, my room is extremely dead, like MK's. Reflections aren't an issue.
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post #645 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
All joking aside I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on them.

Got a "no driving ban" in place starting at Midnight here.
Lol. Don't you love that?
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post #646 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
I wonder how this JBL 2384 waveguide compares to the Seos 24? What is the lowest or optimal frequency that the JBL 2384 waveguide (the one used in this 4722N) can hold the pattern down to? How much does the 2384 waveguide cost?


What if someone wanted to DIY a modified 4722N using a better compression driver on the stock 2384 horn and instead of the 265-2 woofers use two of the 2226's? This is assuming that the builder would be capable of his own crossover design.
The crossover JBL uses on the passive version is 630hz, I believe. I actually did swap out my 2430's for the 2450SL. I am actively bi-amped so I could tweak the highs for the best sound.
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post #647 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
DIY 4722N:
Horn: JBL part# 365359-001
horn is about $100 or so last check (might be more now):
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Horn%20List/Horn%20List.pdf
Compression driver: 2432H
Woofers are: 265H-2 (the -2 indicates the model not that you need 2 although you do need 2 of them, there are several flavors of the 265H) p/n: 363837-005X
Crossover is part #: 442144-001
PDF with the crossover: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Theatre%20Series/4722N-HF.pdf
crossover schematic attached.
not sure if JBL pro parts is selling direct to public anymore. inquire here: http://www.jblproservice.com/parts.html
4722N description pdf here: http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SS4722_0509.pdf
crossover picture attached as well (I'm pretty sure that is it, not 100%)
cab dimensions and tuning could be determined by measuring the cab and the ports.
looks like the enclosure for the woofers is the 4739, which measures (34.75 in. H x 30.0 in. W x 17.75 in. D). those dimensions suggest about 9 cubic feet internal.
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Theatre%20Series/4739.pdf

note on the 265H-2 woofer. it appears to be listed as having the same specs as the 265H-1, and the replacement cone is the same part number, so I'm not sure if there is any difference. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele%20small%20parameters/theile%20parameters.pdf
looks like it was $376 from jbl pro parts at last check: http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducer%20List/Transducer%20List.pdf

the crossover network is for the passive version 4722N, of course. the 4722 can also be run with an active crossover. i think specific tuning (crossover slopes, frequency, eq, and delay) are available from jbl, but i don't have a link (yet).
I have (4) of the JBL digital screen array amps, they are Crown DSi series, and have the 4722 crossover slopes built in, along with others. I can post up a screen shot probably ... Will try to post digital slope and specs when I'm on the PC.
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post #648 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
I wonder how this JBL 2384 waveguide compares to the Seos 24? What is the lowest or optimal frequency that the JBL 2384 waveguide (the one used in this 4722N) can hold the pattern down to? How much does the 2384 waveguide cost?


What if someone wanted to DIY a modified 4722N using a better compression driver on the stock 2384 horn and instead of the 265-2 woofers use two of the 2226's? This is assuming that the builder would be capable of his own crossover design.
SEOS is better, but sounds like fun project. I'd use 15" woofers though, something just nice about them.
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post #649 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
No toe in on mine (yet) and great soundstage. Even if not in the center.
Do you have recent or finished pictures of your set up ?
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post #650 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
Weren't all of your U215's and U15's whored out (rental speakers)? Have you ever verified that they are all operating properly? In addition to driver operation, there is a known issue with the Unities regarding small breaks occurring on the crossover boards (usually happens due to abuse from the rigors of their intended use over time).

I bought a 3-pack of U15's that were from a fixed installation in a church in Iowa; never gigged or rented out. When they arrived, one of the cabs had an issue with an intermittent BMS CD. I figured at first it was certainly a crossover issue, but ended up tracing it back to a bad diaphragm in the CD.
I was able to verify there were no crossover issues however I had to replace compression drivers in five of the seven Yorkvilles I purchased.
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post #651 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 07:54 AM
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Hey, do your DRs have that dip in them all the time or is that a measurement artifact?

It looks an awful lot like a reverse null. What frequency do they crossover?

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post #652 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I have (4) of the JBL digital screen array amps, they are Crown DSi series, and have the 4722 crossover slopes built in, along with others. I can post up a screen shot probably ... Will try to post digital slope and specs when I'm on the PC.
I prefer the 2430 CD (4622) with it's Al phragm vs. the Ti one in the 2432 (4722).
I also use the Dsi amps for my trio.
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post #653 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey, do your DRs have that dip in them all the time or is that a measurement artifact?

It looks an awful lot like a reverse null. What frequency do they crossover?

Yes I do have that in all of them. It could be the way my speakers are stacked. The crossover is around 2.5khz.

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post #654 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 09:03 AM
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Here is the 4722bi presets:



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-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #655 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 09:11 AM
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They are also using a little EQ on it:









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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #656 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Yes I do have that in all of them. It could be the way my speakers are stacked. The crossover is around 2.5khz.
Interesting, your probably right.

Have you ever played with delaying the woofer portion in one of the stacks or inverting their polarity?

Maybe a distance thing and the wavefronts haven't fully coalesced?

Sorry don't mean to derail, just curious.
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post #657 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
scott, when you play music, 2 channel, something with very good imaging/wide soundstage, how does it change when you move all the way over to sitting in front of either the left or right speaker? image/soundstage collapse? doesn't it sound like all the sound is coming from the speaker in front of you?
When I would slide over to the left and right, the center image would stay very stable. Now my room is pretty narrow so if I slide to the extreme end of the couch it would change the imaging some. As I would expect as there is no toe in, currently.

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Do you have recent or finished pictures of your set up ?
Nothing new as there have been pretty much zero changes in the year I've had it up. Just been enjoying it while I had time to use it. Been working really hard this past year. Making green to pay dem bills. And by bills I mean, buy more stuff.

Will have updates soon. Building a new screen and changing the whole configuration. For another thread.....
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post #658 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post
Interesting, your probably right.

Have you ever played with delaying the woofer portion in one of the stacks or inverting their polarity?

Maybe a distance thing and the wavefronts haven't fully coalesced?

Sorry don't mean to derail, just curious.

No I have not but might be something to try later. They still sound great even with. After listening to this JBL I am toying with a DIY project with JBL parts now. I know this speaker costs much more and I just got it used for cheap. If it did not have that nasal sound at all I would have 5 of them as it is very simple plug and play for awesome results but that sound throws me off. They are for sure going to my surrounds.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
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subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #659 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 11:13 AM
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hey man, thanks for that sweet post with the settings. i'll summarize and stick them in the diy4722 post.

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post #660 of 766 Old 01-27-2015, 11:26 AM
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that 'nasal' sound is most likely coming from the high crossover point. most of their p.a. speakers have that problem because they are designed for max durability/spl vs. sound quality. this was in part what the constant directivity craze was about a few years ago (smooth directivity transition through the crossover point to minimize honk, but for some reason jbl didn't pick up on it in its portable speakers). they got it right in both the k2 and m2, so they are aware of the benefits.

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Gear in this thread - DR-250 by PriceGrabber.com



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