Two cylinder sub-woofers in SVS style. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 158 Old 04-30-2014, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cochinada View Post


Sorry to ask so many basic questions but what exactly is a Linkwitz transform and what is f0 and fp?
Do you mean that those bash filters have implemented a kind of internal Linkwitz transform + Highpass filters?
Are there any 'equalizers' out there that can apply a customised Linkwitz transform according to our specs?
Why the mention to a 'sealed box' together with this Linkwitz transform?

 

He used an LT to get a flatter response from the sealed cab he was working with, in order to show how the eq was working. People with sealed cabs often use an LT to keep the response flatter as the frequency gets lower, since sealed boxes naturally roll off lower frequencies. 

 

I know that a lot of people run the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, which gives pretty good control over eq. The Behringer iNuke dsp amps can do it, though I don't personally know how customizable they are. And of course a miniDSP.

 

But like LDT02 said, sealed subs will be generally pretty flat to the tuning frequency, but things could change once you put it in your room. I ended up buying a calibrated measurement mic and used it with REW (there's something else to read up on) to see exactly what my sub was doing in my room so I could correct and compensate for the room, more so than for the enclosure. 

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post #32 of 158 Old 04-30-2014, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I tweaked the Dayton UM12-22 in order not to use equalization and keep the rear port air velocity under 17m/s. At the same time reducing the 3 ports length to 82mm x 856mm which is... acceptable I think because at least I don't have to bend them. Cone excursion is under control and SPL is about 104dB @15Hz.

I also modeled the UM15-22 and managed only one port also a little shorter. The SPL is higher of course but the bandwith @3dB is narrower.

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post #33 of 158 Old 04-30-2014, 04:36 PM
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Yeah you're right, the 15 is harder to get flat as low as the 12. That's interesting. Also, on your 12, your cone excursion was way under xmax, so you could add some more power to it. Everything else looks good. Have you managed to find a place that sells the Ultimax drivers over there?

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post #34 of 158 Old 04-30-2014, 08:13 PM
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what about something like alpine subwoofers over there?

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post #35 of 158 Old 04-30-2014, 08:29 PM
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"Sorry to ask so many basic questions but what exactly is a Linkwitz transform and what is f0 and fp?"

a linkwitz transform is one method for extending the rolloff of a subwoofer. it can also be used to change the shape of the rolloff.

I simply used it in the example to extend the response of the subwoofer to zero hz. in other words, give me a flat line to work with. then when I applied the other filter, you can see its shape.

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post #36 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 02:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah you're right, the 15 is harder to get flat as low as the 12. That's interesting. Also, on your 12, your cone excursion was way under xmax, so you could add some more power to it. Everything else looks good. Have you managed to find a place that sells the Ultimax drivers over there?

I can't because if I increase the power then the Rear port Air velocity also increases and goes over 17m/s mad.gif
Yes I found a place that sell these drivers online. Their site is not very straightforward and because of that I missed it before. The prices are not so bad comparing with other options but really are higher than over there. Look for yourself: https://www.intertechnik.de/Shop/Lautsprecher/Dayton/Dayton-Subwoofer/1768,de,7053

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what about something like alpine subwoofers over there?

Didn't come across those yet. At least none of the shops on my list trade them but I'll take a look. Thanks for the suggestion.

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"Sorry to ask so many basic questions but what exactly is a Linkwitz transform and what is f0 and fp?"

a linkwitz transform is one method for extending the rolloff of a subwoofer. it can also be used to change the shape of the rolloff.

I simply used it in the example to extend the response of the subwoofer to zero hz. in other words, give me a flat line to work with. then when I applied the other filter, you can see its shape.

But do this exist in the real world? That is, can it be applied like a filter or is just a theoretical tool?
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post #37 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 05:30 AM
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I can't because if I increase the power then the Rear port Air velocity also increases and goes over 17m/s mad.gif
Yes I found a place that sell these drivers online. Their site is not very straightforward and because of that I missed it before. The prices are not so bad comparing with other options but really are higher than over there. Look for yourself: https://www.intertechnik.de/Shop/Lautsprecher/Dayton/Dayton-Subwoofer/1768,de,7053
Didn't come across those yet. At least none of the shops on my list trade them but I'll take a look. Thanks for the suggestion.
But do this exist in the real world? That is, can it be applied like a filter or is just a theoretical tool?

 

I went up to 300 watts I think and air velocity was still under 20 which is still acceptable. Or you could do a slot port instead of round ones. Ports are so configurable, don't limit your sub by air velocity. Change things up with ports until you can get the best performance that speaker is capable of.

 

Holy cow that's twice as much as I paid for mine here. So weird that they're that expensive over there. 

 

Yes they exist in the real world. I googled it and the third link that came up was to minidsp's site lol but this explains what it is and how to apply one with miniDSP. 

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tools/linkwitz-transform

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post #38 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I went up to 300 watts I think and air velocity was still under 20 which is still acceptable. Or you could do a slot port instead of round ones. Ports are so configurable, don't limit your sub by air velocity. Change things up with ports until you can get the best performance that speaker is capable of.

Holy cow that's twice as much as I paid for mine here. So weird that they're that expensive over there. 

Yes they exist in the real world. I googled it and the third link that came up was to minidsp's site lol but this explains what it is and how to apply one with miniDSP. 
http://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tools/linkwitz-transform

Well, my problem is that I'm a little perfectionist and 'acceptable' is not something I'm very found of. Slot ports seem very tricky to build therefore I rather keep them round so I can buy them instead (I'm also a bit on the lazy side). The problem is keeping them as short as possible.
Anyway isn't that Highpass filter going to 'eat' up the results of the LT?

Yes, all equipment imported from the US here in Europe is very expensive because of taxes, shipping and other reasons but that was the cheapest I could find. Look at this one on eBay for instance.
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post #39 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 07:17 AM
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I didn't mention but the problem is that I'm in Europe and importing drivers from outside the EU is prohibitive so I'm afraid Parts Express is not an option for me but I will search if I can find those brands here.
Thanks!
That's why there is a Location field in your profile. Even listing a country can better help us tailor the answers for your location.

Sundown has dealers worldwide. Jacob has posted videos from guys showing off their car audio systems across Europe, into Russia and as far south as India. Even though these subs aren't marketed towards the home theater crowd, the sub doesn't care where it is playing. Find one with the parameters that fit your needs and it will work. Alpine, as mentioned above, is another great option that should be world wide. I just followed your Ebay link and then searched for subs only to find JL Audio, RE Audio, JBL, Infinity, MB Quart and Earthquake.
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post #40 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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That's why there is a Location field in your profile. Even listing a country can better help us tailor the answers for your location.

Sundown has dealers worldwide. Jacob has posted videos from guys showing off their car audio systems across Europe, into Russia and as far south as India. Even though these subs aren't marketed towards the home theater crowd, the sub doesn't care where it is playing. Find one with the parameters that fit your needs and it will work. Alpine, as mentioned above, is another great option that should be world wide. I just followed your Ebay link and then searched for subs only to find JL Audio, RE Audio, JBL, Infinity, MB Quart and Earthquake.

That was deliberate as I don't like to disclose private information on the internet but you have a point and for that reason only I will update my profile.

Perhaps I'm being biased but never heard good things about Alpine Speakers, quite the opposite in fact. The same goes for Bose, etc. But I will have a look at those other options for sure.

Thanks!
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post #41 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Does this work? Considering the constricted footprint I have, my only option for having two drivers per sub-woofer would be something like this:



So imagine a cylinder with one driver on top and the other firing to the floor. The box would have to be sealed. Can I model this on winsid? Is this an isobarik configuration? From the picture I don't think so but...
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post #42 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 09:31 AM
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Well, my problem is that I'm a little perfectionist and 'acceptable' is not something I'm very found of. Slot ports seem very tricky to build therefore I rather keep them round so I can buy them instead (I'm also a bit on the lazy side). The problem is keeping them as short as possible.
Anyway isn't that Highpass filter going to 'eat' up the results of the LT?

Yes, all equipment imported from the US here in Europe is very expensive because of taxes, shipping and other reasons but that was the cheapest I could find. Look at this one on eBay for instance.

 

Well for me it comes back to more power is better than not enough. You can always turn the sub down. And 17m/s isn't the magical number. Whether or not you'll hear port chuffing depends on other things too, such as where the sub is located, how far it is from you, how the ports are designed and built, if you're using port flares, etc. 

 

And yes, the HP will cancel the benefit of the LT at and below the HP, but not above it. Besides, LT's are pretty much just for sealed boxes, as far as I know, where you don't really need a high pass filter. More specific parametric eq is more helpful on a ported sub.

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post #43 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 09:37 AM
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Does this work? Considering the constricted footprint I have, my only option for having two drivers per sub-woofer would be something like this:



So imagine a cylinder with one driver on top and the other firing to the floor. The box would have to be sealed. Can I model this on winsid? Is this an isobarik configuration? From the picture I don't think so but...

I don't know if that is considered isobaric or not, but modelling something like that is beyond my knowledge. Are you thinking dual-opposed(both drivers move outwards at the same time) or push-pull(one driver moves in while the other moves out)? You can do either, based on how you wire the speakers together, but I'm guessing it matters which one you're planning when modelling. 

 

Actually now that I think about it, if you're planning dual opposed, I think you can just model it as a sealed enclosure with two drivers. That should work.

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post #44 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 11:22 AM
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That was deliberate as I don't like to disclose private information on the internet but you have a point and for that reason only I will update my profile.

Perhaps I'm being biased but never heard good things about Alpine Speakers, quite the opposite in fact. The same goes for Bose, etc. But I will have a look at those other options for sure.

Thanks!
Great. Now that I know cochinada in Portugal, I'll be stopping by your house the next time I'm in the area. biggrin.gif You can at least narrow me down to a list of about 20 people and 10 square miles.

I'm not a fan of Alpine speakers either but their subs rock. The Type R (a few years old is better) and Type X (a lot of copper, low distortion work in the motor) subs rock.
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post #45 of 158 Old 05-01-2014, 11:23 AM
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Does this work? Considering the constricted footprint I have, my only option for having two drivers per sub-woofer would be something like this:



So imagine a cylinder with one driver on top and the other firing to the floor. The box would have to be sealed. Can I model this on winsid? Is this an isobarik configuration? From the picture I don't think so but...
2 drivers in a sealed box. I think WinISD has the option of choosing the number of drivers used. If not, double the Vas.
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post #46 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Well for me it comes back to more power is better than not enough. You can always turn the sub down. And 17m/s isn't the magical number. Whether or not you'll hear port chuffing depends on other things too, such as where the sub is located, how far it is from you, how the ports are designed and built, if you're using port flares, etc. 

And yes, the HP will cancel the benefit of the LT at and below the HP, but not above it. Besides, LT's are pretty much just for sealed boxes, as far as I know, where you don't really need a high pass filter. More specific parametric eq is more helpful on a ported sub.

About "port flare" is this the same that in winisd is called "flanged end"? If so I'm considering it as the ports I see selling out there are flared.

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Great. Now that I know cochinada in Portugal, I'll be stopping by your house the next time I'm in the area. biggrin.gif You can at least narrow me down to a list of about 20 people and 10 square miles.

I'm not a fan of Alpine speakers either but their subs rock. The Type R (a few years old is better) and Type X (a lot of copper, low distortion work in the motor) subs rock.

You wish! wink.gif The only Type R it comes to my mind is The Honda. But I much rather prefer the Type-F (for Jaguar). Now seriously, I will research those.

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2 drivers in a sealed box. I think WinISD has the option of choosing the number of drivers used. If not, double the Vas.

Yes it has but the result is not so good according to my expectations as indeed the roll-off starts much sooner that on a vented cabinet.

By the way, I think I found a bug in winisd 0.7.0.900. When you open for the first time the LT the default value of Q0 IS NOT the same value that appears in the Box tab, not even close! See the pictures bellow, where as you can see, for example in winisd 0.50a7 Q0 is the same. So, which one is correct?


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post #47 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 03:51 AM
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not sure why it defaults that way.

just enter the f0 as the fsc off the box tab, and the q0 as the qtc.

fp and qp are the targets for what you want after the filter.

also, for a sealed cab with two drivers, just change the number of drivers to 2 and use whatever volume you have for the cab. it should model the same 1 driver in a cab 1/2 the size, less 3 db for the increase in sensitivity with 2 drivers, and 6db less max spl.
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post #48 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Basic question: what is best? To have a lower F3 but less SPL all around or a more 'round' response but with higher SPL?
For instance on the example bellow which one would you prefer?


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post #49 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 05:20 AM
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Basic question: what is best? To have a lower F3 but less SPL all around or a more 'round' response but with higher SPL?
For instance on the example bellow which one would you prefer?



That's entirely up to you, but personally I prefer the flatter response, you can always compensate by adding more subwoofers.
A lot of people don't have the space for more though, or have a huge room. Again, comes down to your goals tongue.gif
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post #50 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 06:15 AM
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About "port flare" is this the same that in winisd is called "flanged end"? If so I'm considering it as the ports I see selling out there are flared.
You wish! wink.gif The only Type R it comes to my mind is The Honda. But I much rather prefer the Type-F (for Jaguar). Now seriously, I will research those.
Yes it has but the result is not so good according to my expectations as indeed the roll-off starts much sooner that on a vented cabinet.

By the way, I think I found a bug in winisd 0.7.0.900. When you open for the first time the LT the default value of Q0 IS NOT the same value that appears in the Box tab, not even close! See the pictures bellow, where as you can see, for example in winisd 0.50a7 Q0 is the same. So, which one is correct?


Yes. A flared port has a flanged end. On both the outside of the port and inside the box. It helps reduce turbulence and reduces chuffing. 

 

Yep, that early but constant roll off is a property of sealed cabs. 

 

As for your question about which is better between louder vs lower, I would agree with the above poster that flatter response is generally better. You can always add more subs to get more spl, but once a sub is built, its nearly impossible to get it to play lower than it was designed to play. For instance, if you built the higher spl sub modelled by that green line, and then decided you wanted flatter response to 16 hz or so, you could do it with eq, but it would take a lot of amp power.

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post #51 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so to update the situation I'm considering the following options:

Vented box with 12" driver
Vented box with 15" driver
Vented box with 18" driver
closed box with 2 x 15" drivers
closed box with 18" driver

And these are the best modeling drivers so far considering the price over here:

Dayton UM12-22
Dayton UM15-22
Dayton RSS390HF-4
Dayton UM18-22
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post #52 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 09:42 AM
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Ok, so to update the situation I'm considering the following options:

Vented box with 12" driver
Vented box with 15" driver
Vented box with 18" driver
closed box with 2 x 15" drivers
closed box with 18" driver

And these are the best modeling drivers so far considering the price over here:

Dayton UM12-22
Dayton UM15-22
Dayton RSS390HF-4
Dayton UM18-22

Depending on how large your room is, I would recommend going with either two of the HO18's or two of the UM15's each in their own vented cabinet. The UM18 would be the best of all the ones you listed, but, it isn't available yet, and who knows when it might ready for purchase.
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post #53 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

My room is relatively small with 17ft 5" x 13ft x 8ft 7" and those black cylinders on each corner are the SVS PC-13 Ultra just to have an idea of their size. So, I can stretch the volume a little further, particularly in height but not much.



Talking about closed boxes, the Sundown drivers, specially the Z-18 D1 is the best so far, surpassing the Dayton UM18-22.
In a box with 230l the Sundown reaches an SPL 3.7dB higher on average! I explain this mainly because of the higher Xmax (35mm vs. 22mm). On both I applied an LT with Fp=15. The Sundown will require much more power of course and both are at the limit of linear cone excursion.
Take a look:



The problem is that the Sundown driver cost almost twice as much as the big Dayton. eek.gif
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post #54 of 158 Old 05-02-2014, 08:06 PM
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Hi,

My room is relatively small with 17ft 5" x 13ft x 8ft 7" and those black cylinders on each corner are the SVS PC-13 Ultra just to have an idea of their size. So, I can stretch the volume a little further, particularly in height but not much.



Talking about closed boxes, the Sundown drivers, specially the Z-18 D1 is the best so far, surpassing the Dayton UM18-22.
In a box with 230l the Sundown reaches an SPL 3.7dB higher on average! I explain this mainly because of the higher Xmax (35mm vs. 22mm). On both I applied an LT with Fp=15. The Sundown will require much more power of course and both are at the limit of linear cone excursion.
Take a look:



The problem is that the Sundown driver cost almost twice as much as the big Dayton. eek.gif

It has been common place for Dayton to under-rate their Xmax numbers on their sub, and even then, there are different ways of measuring Xmax from a company standpoint. I have read that the new UM18 may very well have 28mm to 30mm Xmax, but, until someone has one to measure, we won't know. With that being said, for the price of the UM18, I don't know of anything in that price category that would come close to beating it. If you have $500 to $600 to spend on subs, you would be much better off with two UM18's rather that one Subdown Z-18 v1.
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post #55 of 158 Old 05-03-2014, 03:11 AM - Thread Starter
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My initial target was always to keep the cost of the whole project under half price of two SVS PC-13 Ultra and hopefully much better performance. In other words to build two subwoofers for the price of one SVS. Is this possible? I don't know as here everything is too expensive and I'll have to consider also the cost of amplification plus equalization plus the boxes. So, with that being said I'm on a tight budget with not much room for spending large amounts of money on top of the line drivers such as this Subdown Z-18 V4.1 or even worse the RE Audio XXX18 or the Earthquake Subzero 18. But I still have options left, namely going down the line of some brands and opting for less expensive drivers. I've prepared a short list of my options over here with some reference prices. I'm not considering shipping costs at this stage. So here are most of my options:

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post #56 of 158 Old 05-03-2014, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Question: What is the order of the highpass filter inbuilt on most power plates and if going for an external pro amplifier plus equalizer what order do those have? Butterworth 2nd order? Linkwitz-Riley?
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post #57 of 158 Old 05-03-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cochinada View Post

My initial target was always to keep the cost of the whole project under half price of two SVS PC-13 Ultra and hopefully much better performance. In other words to build two subwoofers for the price of one SVS. Is this possible? I don't know as here everything is too expensive and I'll have to consider also the cost of amplification plus equalization plus the boxes. So, with that being said I'm on a tight budget with not much room for spending large amounts of money on top of the line drivers such as this Subdown Z-18 V4.1 or even worse the RE Audio XXX18 or the Earthquake Subzero 18. But I still have options left, namely going down the line of some brands and opting for less expensive drivers. I've prepared a short list of my options over here with some reference prices. I'm not considering shipping costs at this stage. So here are most of my options:


Have you priced the UXL-18? I would guess that they could ship to Europe, or Ox depending on where you are at. I shipped a rather large & heavy package to Great Britton once and the shipping wasn't all that bad! I think that if you can wait on the Dayton UM18's, then a pair of those powered by an iNuke3000dsp would most definitely best the SVS PC13/Ultra! If you do not have direct & local access to an iNuke3000dsp then I would perhaps have someone in the states purchase one and ship it to you. That combo would be out standing!
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post #58 of 158 Old 05-03-2014, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Have you priced the UXL-18? I would guess that they could ship to Europe, or Ox depending on where you are at. I shipped a rather large & heavy package to Great Britton once and the shipping wasn't all that bad! I think that if you can wait on the Dayton UM18's, then a pair of those powered by an iNuke3000dsp would most definitely best the SVS PC13/Ultra! If you do not have direct & local access to an iNuke3000dsp then I would perhaps have someone in the states purchase one and ship it to you. That combo would be out standing!

Hi,

I took a look at that right now but buying a driver from outside the EU is out of the question and there are no dealers here. Just to give you an idea, if this driver costs $530 CAD (?) then here it would cost about 650€ minimum, estimating about $150 USD just for the shipping. For instance we have to pay 40% over the cost of the item plus the cost of shipping. It really sucks. mad.gif

The Behringers here pose no problem as they are manufactured in Germany so I can get good prices.

Maybe I was not clear enough but my goal is not to best ONE SVS PC13-Ultra but TWO! Do you still think that combo will do it? Any idea at what SPL level would two PC13-Ultras be @ 15Hz?
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post #59 of 158 Old 05-04-2014, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Question: What is the order of the highpass filter inbuilt on most power plates and if going for an external pro amplifier plus equalizer what order do those have? Butterworth 2nd order? Linkwitz-Riley?

Well, answering to myself from what I've read about the miniDSP it is possible to define advanced filters higher than 2nd order. smile.gif

Now some 35 different projects latter, how does this one look:

F3 = 11.6 Hz
SPL @ 12 Hz = 101.827 dB
SPL @ 13 Hz = 103.433 dB
SPL @ 15 Hz = 103.418 dB
SPL @ 20 Hz = 103.458 dB
SPL @ 30 Hz = 103.468 dB
SPL @ 40 Hz = 103.296 dB

on a 230l (8.122 cu ft) box tuned at 13 Hz with one port flared of size 5,51" x 42.61"
Maximum rear port - Air velocity = 18.7 m/s
System input power = 100W
Maximum Amplifier apparent load power @ 15.6 Hz = 141,5 VA
Maximum group delay @ 12.13 Hz = 101.7s
Maximum Cone excursion @ 9.32 Hz = 22.160 mm (Xmax = 22mm)
Filters:
Parametric EQ (fc=24.00 Hz, Q=1.00, Gain=3 dB)
Parametric EQ (fc=17.00 Hz, Q=2.00, Gain=2 dB)
No need for a Highpass filter!

Not bad I reckon and for certain much better than this one: cool.gif




Does anybody want to take a guess about the driver used?
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post #60 of 158 Old 05-04-2014, 11:29 PM
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I would say port velocity is a little high the reason I say this is because the um 18 can reach out probably close to 30mm of excursion and handle quite a bit more power. As you start adding more power that port velocity will most likely be in the 20's and has the potential to be audible.
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