Thinking about a RAAl in a waveguide - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I have wanted to do this for a while, but do not have the design skill. Anybody interested in designing a speaker with these components:

RAAL 140-15D: http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/raal-original-140-15d-ribbon-tweeter-with-optional-amorphous-core/

RAAL fiberglass wavew guide: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/seosraal.html

AE's TD12M

Only requirement that I have is no more than 12" deep out to out on the cabinet.


5/15/14
Not going with RAAL. Going to use Beyma TPL-150H.

I think I have decided on size. I can make the exterior 15" wide x 11.5" deep and 44.5" high. It would be an odd MMT. The drivers will be tightly spaced in the middle of the box. The woofers will be above the tweeter, so that the center of the tweeter will be at ear height.

4.95" top of cabinet to TD12M
12.5" for TD12M
0.25" space between the two TD12M's
12.5" for TD12M
0.25" space between TD12M and TPL-150H
9.05" for TPL-150H
5" between TPL-150H and bottom of speaker cabinet

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post #2 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 09:56 AM
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You should contact Face2. He is quite skilled afaik and he has an interest in this concept. You providing the components would allow him to evaluate them for his own use, so I'm sure he'd like the opportunity.
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post #3 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 11:03 AM
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I have a pair of RAAL 140-15D sitting in boxes waiting for a project. Late last week I saw the DIY soundgroup RAAL waveguide.

What I can't figure out is the horizontal mounting. This is going to make for a wide-ish vertical window and a narrow horizontal one. Not typically how ribbons are used. Perhaps the waveguide addresses these issues.

Your 12' depth will be limiting factor with regard to the amount of bass the box can reproduce.
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post #4 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

I have a pair of RAAL 140-15D sitting in boxes waiting for a project. Late last week I saw the DIY soundgroup RAAL waveguide.

What I can't figure out is the horizontal mounting. This is going to make for a wide-ish vertical window and a narrow horizontal one. Not typically how ribbons are used. Perhaps the waveguide addresses these issues.

Your 12' depth will be limiting factor with regard to the amount of bass the box can reproduce.

I just assumed that it was turned the wrong way, but I guess I had better confirm.

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post #5 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

I have a pair of RAAL 140-15D sitting in boxes waiting for a project. Late last week I saw the DIY soundgroup RAAL waveguide.

What I can't figure out is the horizontal mounting. This is going to make for a wide-ish vertical window and a narrow horizontal one. Not typically how ribbons are used. Perhaps the waveguide addresses these issues.

Your 12' depth will be limiting factor with regard to the amount of bass the box can reproduce.

For bass I have/will have

18" RE-XXX in 8CF sealed
18" MalX in 4.5CF sealed
Two 18" SI18's in 4.0CF (each) sealed
Two 12" TC Sounds in 2.0CF sealed
Two 18" TD18H+ sealed for midbass (box size to be determined)

Have all of the above except for RE-XXX. Waiting for Beastaudio to ship.

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post #6 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 11:46 AM
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My point was the box with the TD12M would be bass limited if held to 12" deep, Generally speaking it's better for bass performance when the box is deeper than it is wide. That's of course not an issue when outboard subs are used.

Perhaps the thing to do is design/build an optimized fullrange speaker, people can then modify the cabinet dimensions to meet their specific needs.
Doing that only effects the cab tuning, so no engineering changes needed in the crossover.

I can't seem to find any measurement/plots of the RAAL WG.

Do we know who designed these? I suppose I should just ask Eric.....
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post #7 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

You should contact Face2. He is quite skilled afaik and he has an interest in this concept. You providing the components would allow him to evaluate them for his own use, so I'm sure he'd like the opportunity.

Thank you. I sent him a PM.

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post #8 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

My point was the box with the TD12M would be bass limited if held to 12" deep, Generally speaking it's better for bass performance when the box is deeper than it is wide. That's of course not an issue when outboard subs are used.

Perhaps the thing to do is design/build an optimized fullrange speaker, people can then modify the cabinet dimensions to meet their specific needs.
Doing that only effects the cab tuning, so no engineering changes needed in the crossover.

I can't seem to find any measurement/plots of the RAAL WG.

Do we know who designed these? I suppose I should just ask Eric.....

Made in Poland by Auto-Tech, but do not have measurements. Erich, if you see this thread, can you find out if Auto-Tech has measurements on the SEOS RAAL and what is the orientation of the waveguide?

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post #9 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

Generally speaking it's better for bass performance when the box is deeper than it is wide.

Why do you think that?

Noah
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post #10 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 03:17 PM
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I'm pretty sure the photo they sent me for that waveguide was not the proper orientation.

Mike, if you want to try one out, I can send you one. But please be careful with it because they're kind of expensive for their size. If memory serves me correct, I only have one pair of those and one pair for the Fountek.

Edit: I'll have to double check if I still have the RAAL models. Pretty sure I took them home to look them over.
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post #11 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm pretty sure the photo they sent me for that waveguide was not the proper orientation.

Mike, if you want to try one out, I can send you one. But please be careful with it because they're kind of expensive for their size. If memory serves me correct, I only have one pair of those and one pair for the Fountek.

Edit: I'll have to double check if I still have the RAAL models. Pretty sure I took them home to look them over.


Can you check and see if they have measurement for the waveguide? Also, if I do this, I will need three. How would I go about getting a 3rd?

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post #12 of 246 Old 05-06-2014, 07:11 PM
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Well the third one might take a while because it would have to be ordered with the next group buy.

What measurements are you wanting?
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post #13 of 246 Old 05-07-2014, 05:44 AM
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Ok, some things to consider. First, the sensitivity of the RAAL is quite a bit lower than the AE woofer you mentioned and the AE TD18 would seriously over power the RAAL as it is much more sensitive and efficient. You would very likely have to pad down the tweeter. I am not sure if you can make this work, but, I would highly recommend going with an active crossover, especially since these are going to be 2-ways, that way you won't have to worry about impedance matching, as well as a whole host of other issues. I have been really wanting to try the Seos waveguide with my RAAL 70-20xr tweeters, but, I am unsure if they are comparable with this particular waveguide as it list the 15d model of the RAAL.

Erich, can you comment if the RAAL 70-20xr is comparable with this Seos waveguide?

I would love to try this, but, I can't afford three RAAL waveguides at $180+ each due to being out of work taking chemo treatment. I was hoping that this last pair would still be available on June first which is when we close on the sale of my home. I was fully intending on buying these! Oh well, guess that I could still buy the Fountek waveguides if they will be in stock?
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post #14 of 246 Old 05-07-2014, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Well the third one might take a while because it would have to be ordered with the next group buy.

What measurements are you wanting?

Same thing as what was done with the SEOS12 with DE250: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here#post_19506630

Has there been any talk of another group buy?

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post #15 of 246 Old 05-07-2014, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok, some things to consider. First, the sensitivity of the RAAL is quite a bit lower than the AE woofer you mentioned and the AE TD18 would seriously over power the RAAL as it is much more sensitive and efficient. You would very likely have to pad down the tweeter. I am not sure if you can make this work, but, I would highly recommend going with an active crossover, especially since these are going to be 2-ways, that way you won't have to worry about impedance matching, as well as a whole host of other issues. I have been really wanting to try the Seos waveguide with my RAAL 70-20xr tweeters, but, I am unsure if they are comparable with this particular waveguide as it list the 15d model of the RAAL.

Erich, can you comment if the RAAL 70-20xr is comparable with this Seos waveguide?

I would love to try this, but, I can't afford three RAAL waveguides at $180+ each due to being out of work taking chemo treatment. I was hoping that this last pair would still be available on June first which is when we close on the sale of my home. I was fully intending on buying these! Oh well, guess that I could still buy the Fountek waveguides if they will be in stock?

The TD18H+ drivers would not be part of the speaker. I listed the TD12M to go with the RAAL with wave guide. The TD18H+ drivers are subs, mid-bass subs. The sensitivity of the RAAL would be increased by the waveguide, so they would be pretty close to the TD12M drivers, with the drivers a DB or two higher. The TD12M's would need to be padded down, not the RAAL tweeter. I can do active or passive. I have the amps and I have a MiniDSP 10x10HD.

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post #16 of 246 Old 05-07-2014, 07:47 AM
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PM on the way Mike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Erich, can you comment if the RAAL 70-20xr is comparable with this Seos waveguide?
Marty, the OEM RAAL works with the AutoTech HA-25 waveguide. You'll just have to get a little creative when mounting the two.

Mike
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post #17 of 246 Old 05-07-2014, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Same thing as what was done with the SEOS12 with DE250: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here#post_19506630

+1

I'm very curious to see what the polars/spectrograms look like for such a non-circular driver shape.
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The sensitivity of the RAAL would be increased by the waveguide, so they would be pretty close to the TD12M drivers, with the drivers a DB or two higher.

Not sure about that, because of the CD compensation.

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post #18 of 246 Old 05-07-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Same thing as what was done with the SEOS12 with DE250: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here#post_19506630

Has there been any talk of another group buy?

I haven't seem any polars for that waveguide. I don't have one of those RAAL tweeters because they're too rich for my blood. So I haven't doen any testing either.

I can help with another group buy if it's needed.
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post #19 of 246 Old 05-07-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I may go back to my original idea of the Beyma TPL-150H, if I can't find measurements. Too expensive for me to buy if the two do not match well. With the TPL-150H, I would consider dual TD12M's in a MTM configuration. Here is the thread I started earlier on the Beyma TPL-150H: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1485073/beyma-tpl-150h-pleated-horn-tweeter

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post #20 of 246 Old 05-08-2014, 05:37 AM
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If you don't end up buying Erich's existing stock of the Seos-RAAL waveguides then I may have to pick them up as I really want to use them in a build that I have been collecting parts for. Only problem is that it will be 4 to 6 weeks before I can afford those $185.00
, each, waveguides.

If Erich, or anyone else would like to see some measurements of the Seos-RAAL waveguide + RAAL tweeter combo, Erich is welcome to ship me one to mount onto my RAAL's and I could do the polars, frequency plots, and any other measurements that you guys want to see!
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post #21 of 246 Old 05-08-2014, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

If you don't end up buying Erich's existing stock of the Seos-RAAL waveguides then I may have to pick them up as I really want to use them in a build that I have been collecting parts for. Only problem is that it will be 4 to 6 weeks before I can afford those $185.00
, each, waveguides.

If Erich, or anyone else would like to see some measurements of the Seos-RAAL waveguide + RAAL tweeter combo, Erich is welcome to ship me one to mount onto my RAAL's and I could do the polars, frequency plots, and any other measurements that you guys want to see!

Do you have the 140-15D?

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post #22 of 246 Old 05-08-2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Do you have the 140-15D?

No, I am using the more common 70-20xr.
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post #23 of 246 Old 05-08-2014, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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No, I am using the more common 70-20xr.

I am pretty sure that tweeter, even mounted in a waveguide, will not go low enough for a 2-way.

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post #24 of 246 Old 05-08-2014, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I am pretty sure that tweeter, even mounted in a waveguide, will not go low enough for a 2-way.
http://www.stonessoundstudio.com.au/stone/Raal/raal_7020XR_ribbon_tweeter.htm
Looks like 2 way isn't a problem.
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post #25 of 246 Old 05-09-2014, 01:16 AM
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You can always crossover at 1.6-2khz with the Raal or Beyma. Obviously 1.8Khz with the RAAL. Seems simple enough with an 8" possibly AETD8 or other.
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post #26 of 246 Old 05-09-2014, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

http://www.stonessoundstudio.com.au/stone/Raal/raal_7020XR_ribbon_tweeter.htm
Looks like 2 way isn't a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

You can always crossover at 1.6-2khz with the Raal or Beyma. Obviously 1.8Khz with the RAAL. Seems simple enough with an 8" possibly AETD8 or other.

A TD12M loses directivity above 1,200hz.

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post #27 of 246 Old 05-09-2014, 06:38 AM
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Why are you considering such a high efficient woofer to use with this less efficient tweeter? Won't that cause some issues with regards to the crossover design? I would use a pair of ScanSpeak Rev's or Illuminators as they will easily play to 1,800hz and have excellent sound quality and be a better match sensitivity wise, assuming that you go with a passive crossover as using an active crossover might make this a non-issue!

If it were me, I would make this build a 3-way active using a nice mid from the likes of Seas, ScanSpeak, or possibly Moral, or even a planner mid such as the BG Neo10 or Neo8! A 3-way setup using the Neo10 from 400hz to 2,000hz with the RAAL covering everything above that would be freaking awesome! You could then do a pair of W18's or a pair of ER18's for the low end!
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post #28 of 246 Old 05-09-2014, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Why are you considering such a high efficient woofer to use with this less efficient tweeter? Won't that cause some issues with regards to the crossover design? I would use a pair of ScanSpeak Rev's or Illuminators as they will easily play to 1,800hz and have excellent sound quality and be a better match sensitivity wise, assuming that you go with a passive crossover as using an active crossover might make this a non-issue!

If it were me, I would make this build a 3-way active using a nice mid from the likes of Seas, ScanSpeak, or possibly Moral, or even a planner mid such as the BG Neo10 or Neo8! A 3-way setup using the Neo10 from 400hz to 2,000hz with the RAAL covering everything above that would be freaking awesome! You could then do a pair of W18's or a pair of ER18's for the low end!

The RAAL 140-15D is 95db sensitive. Put a waveguide on it and it will be at least 97DB sensitivity. A TD12M is 96.5db sensitivity. Looks like a good match to me, if the RAAL could go low enough. I know the Beyma TPL-150H can go low enough and it has enough sensitivity to be matched with a pair of TD12M's. Only problem with matching a pair of TD12M's with the TPL-150H is my TD12M's are 8 ohm versions. I guess I could use my MiniDSP10x10HD as an active crossover with the pair of TD12M's at 4 ohm and the TPL-150H at 8 ohm.

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post #29 of 246 Old 05-09-2014, 07:45 AM
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Mixing 4 and 8 ohm is not a problem with passive.

Even on a wide baffle, usually there's some low frequency loss that'll reduce the final sensitivity around 3db or so.
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post #30 of 246 Old 05-09-2014, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Mixing 4 and 8 ohm is not a problem with passive.

Even on a wide baffle, usually there's some low frequency loss that'll reduce the final sensitivity around 3db or so.

I think I will go ahead and order three TD12M's in 8 ohm version and see about getting the TPL-150H drivers, since I know those will go low enough. Need to go MTM to get the tweeter at the right height. Will baffle wall mount these. What would you suggest for box volume sealed and ported. Will be used with multiple subs. Just need to get below 80Hz.

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