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post #301 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 09:16 PM
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why not just do a th with a 18 ...u will get around 100db 2.85v u will only get 35-100 or so and 130+db with minimal power and a reasonably sized box around 8cf, plus it looks cool if u have the back of driver showing. also u can use a driver thats half the price for the same performance as the 21.
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post #302 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 09:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I did think about using the internal walls of the 12" enclosure as sides for the subwoofer ports, they fit next to the 15 as well, just shaped a little different. I drew it up both ways, but making the elbow on the back wall might be harder to line up properly for such a large panel. I redrew it with a slot port on the bottom, but still not dead set on that either.

Not that my opinion matters much, but, I would go for the slot port and twin 8" speakers because:

1. Different
2. Slot port is lower to the floor for AT screen use
3. It's a nod to the 1099
4. Looks the most interesting/vulgar and this is supposed to be a hot rod kind of speaker.
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post #303 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I updated post #2 with the current ideas being discussed along with their size and waveguide height.

Basically it's this:



D looks neat with dual 18's. But the waveguide is only about 36" up off the ground. Plus I don't know if there needs to be another pair of 8" mids above the waveguide to help with the top woofer.


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post #304 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pokeme View Post

Not that my opinion matters much, but,

2. Slut port is lower to the floor for AT screen use

Those types of ports wouldn't be appropriate for this design.


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post #305 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 09:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I updated post #2 with the current ideas being discussed along with their size and waveguide height.

Basically it's this:



D looks neat with dual 18's. But the waveguide is only about 36" up off the ground. Plus I don't know if there needs to be another pair of 8" mids above the waveguide to help with the top woofer.

D with some carpet spikes :-)
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post #306 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 09:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Those types of ports wouldn't be appropriate for this design.

Oops, Freudian slip!
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post #307 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 09:45 PM
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C
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post #308 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 10:08 PM
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B/ C with dual 18"s tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #309 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 10:10 PM
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B/ C with dual 18"s tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Or go crazy with an WMTMW of either B or C. biggrin.gif


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post #310 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Those were discussed earlier.....too tall.


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post #311 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 10:24 PM
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C
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post #312 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 11:03 PM
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"I've already explained before why it's a stupid idea, and John, you normally come up with much better than this. Even though the cab may acoustically roll off second order, it will still be getting full voltage applied below bandwidth and it will still try to reproduce that, causing much more excursion and distortion than necessary and more than there would be with even a matching second order electrical filter before the driver. This could give you a nice LR4 final acoustic swap which would match well to the proposed active filter to the LF driver(s). Seems a waste to build a potentially very nice design, then intentionally hobble it for the cost of a couple of passives in the filter. Like putting cheap re-treads on a high performance car."

ah. thanks for the clarification. in this case there is a huge midrange and the f3 is unusually high. as a result, even with 100 watts of power, the driver will only be moving 2mm at 30hz! so, in this particular case, i'm not sure the effect that you describe will actually be a problem. or, do you think it is always better done the other way?
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post #313 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

C


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post #314 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 11:27 PM
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"Did you model WMTMW like Paul W. did?"

the floor bounce calculation was for just one driver.



"All 3 use the SEOS-18 with the BA-750 for now."

with a 12" midrange, it would seem the 12 or 15 inch seos would have better directivity matching, but having pattern control to a lower point has advantage too.




"If a 15" model is used, Bill thought this one looked good:
http://www.parts-express.com/bc-15ndl76-15-neodymium-woofer--294-683"

the 15fw76 is quite similar in performance and price, but includes demodulating ring.




"I generally don't like the tone..."

no worries. he was just pointing out a potential stupid idea. its always good to call out stupid ideas!







"Would anyone ever max out a 12" midrange"

that's probably sufficient for total overkill. my concern is actually whether or not the 21" will be able to keep up, even with a couple thousand watts of power. considering that it starts with both lower sensitivity and the spectral content of music can be 10db or more higher in the bass than the midrange.





"21sw115?"

yeah. that's the one being considered here.





"I did think about using the internal walls of the 12" enclosure as sides for the subwoofer ports..."

just keep in mind that might cause some diffraction problems.

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post #315 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 11:37 PM
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I'd vote C.
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post #316 of 1134 Old 05-21-2014, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"All 3 use the SEOS-18 with the BA-750 for now."

with a 12" midrange, it would seem the 12 or 15 inch seos would have better directivity matching, but having pattern control to a lower point has advantage too.
Besides LF extension, how do Erich's CD's compare SQ wise? I would prefer to use the model that has the best HF extension (smallest VC and exit) and still digs low enough to cross safely to the midrange.

With a 12" mid I would lean towards the SEOS 15 as it will allow plenty of flexibility in the crossover region. Plus it's readily available unlike the SEOS 18.

Mike
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post #317 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 12:13 AM
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having the top section be "rotatable" will increase appeal quite a bit as it makes for the possibility of a center channel.

first pic is 12" seos, 12" driver, 18" sub (if using something like the 18sw115 or even the 18tbw100 with external 1100 watts, 1 channel of an inuke 3000dsp, that should be pretty darn good).




if going with the 21" driver, the 12" midrange just looks too small!

here is 15" seos, 15" driver, 21" sub. man injured his back moving speakers, so he is taking a break. :-)

external dimensions there are 2.5' wide, 4.86' tall.

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post #318 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 12:28 AM
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This thread is awesome:)

I vote C. I wouldve preferred the D model with dual 18" but it is not practical for most AT setups. Modelling 1 x 21" vs 2 x 18" in winisd in the same cabinet volume and same power they are equal until around 200hz, where the dual 18" has more output. However, the 21" is at max excursion at 1500w, whereas the dual 18" is crusing at about 40% less excursion. At maximum SPL the dual 18" is ahead with about 3dB from 20hz to 200hz and then gaining more over 200hz, but it requires 3000w. So thats 3 x 3000w into the system. I used the B&C 18SW115.

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post #319 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 12:41 AM
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This may be a dumb question, and it definitely wouldn't be the first dumb question I've ever asked on here but, if using a 12" midrange with the SEOS-18 causes directivity issues than why couldn't you just use an 18" midrange? There are plenty of pro 18's that go high enough to cross with the BA-750. Plus I personally like the idea of the subs, midranges, and Horn all being the same size. I don't know enough to say whether it would work or not but, esthetically I like the idea of a WMTMW of all 18's.

Just an idea


Other than that idea I like D best followed by C with B being the worst by far!
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post #320 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 12:48 AM
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"why couldn't you just use an 18" midrange?"

they don't tend to do so well up to about 700hz or so where the rough crossover target is.

i'm not entirely sure which aspect of the driver is the limiting factor. might be stiffness of the cone.

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post #321 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"why couldn't you just use an 18" midrange?"

they don't tend to do so well up to about 700hz or so where the rough crossover target is.

i'm not entirely sure which aspect of the driver is the limiting factor. might be stiffness of the cone.

What about something like this one?

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-sigma-pro-18a-2-18-cast-frame-driver--290-427

Its listed to go much higher 2,400hz and its only $175
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post #322 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 01:24 AM
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Or another option, you could stick with the 21" B&C subwoofer, then 2 12" midranges, and step up to the SEOS-24!! It would be a little over budget but could also be pretty bad a**!
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post #323 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 03:45 AM
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I like C the best.

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post #324 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziedog View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"why couldn't you just use an 18" midrange?"

they don't tend to do so well up to about 700hz or so where the rough crossover target is.

i'm not entirely sure which aspect of the driver is the limiting factor. might be stiffness of the cone.

What about something like this one?

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-sigma-pro-18a-2-18-cast-frame-driver--290-427

Its listed to go much higher 2,400hz and its only $175
Judging by it's impedance curve, it has issues by 300hz.

Mike
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post #325 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 05:00 AM
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Aesthetically, I like D best because of the symmetry and robustness, which won't matter much with them behind a screen or grills.

From the looks of it, I'd guess that A and D with the dual 8's have the best horizontal directivity match to the waveguide.

The 36" height of D is optimal for me as I don't have any seats on risers.

That brings up the issue of vertical directivity/lobing for the mids.
With the WMTW arrangement, the crossover design may be able to tilt the forward lobe up slightly if the waveguide ends up too low.

With WMTMW from Paul W's simulation, one gets good control of the vertical polars that can eliminate the need for a lot of room treatments. If you value that, then consider a row of 5's above and below the waveguide. That will make it even taller. You can get some of the height back by moving or eliminating the vent for the woofers. Two sealed 18's on each side with room gain is probably all that one needs. I would be careful about ported where box volume is limited and you don't have enough box volume or port area to qualify as LLT. This design requires the subs to cross over at 200 hz or higher and thus a vent pipe resonance close to the pass band is likely. There is also the issue of integration with subs in the rest of the room.

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post #326 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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With a 12" mid I would lean towards the SEOS 15 as it will allow plenty of flexibility in the crossover region. Plus it's readily available unlike the SEOS 18.

You mean Maximus-18? biggrin.gif


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post #327 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 05:40 AM
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the 15fw76 is quite similar in performance and price, but includes demodulating ring.

Does a neo driver need a demod ring? A neo slug and its chrome coating is conductive, as is Alnico, unlike ferrite which is an electric insulator.

For what it's worth, I like C the best, D the least.

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post #328 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 05:46 AM
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I would be careful about ported where box volume is limited and you don't have enough box volume or port area to qualify as LLT.

If the plan is to use a separate power amp with crossover/eq (preferably DSP), porting or tuning to a specific curve isn't really necessary. You can EQ the heck out of it if you wanted to. I'd prefer sealed because of better control and being more stable as well as not being too fussy about specific T/S parameters over production variations.

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post #329 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 06:21 AM
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There's a certain something about "D" that has my eye on it.

It is "D" for me.
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post #330 of 1134 Old 05-22-2014, 06:24 AM
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I like the B/C option (not that I am a potential client as I have my own things in the works) and specifically LTD02's first picture, but I'd opt for the SEOS 15 + 12" + 18". That just seems a bit more practical even with this being a crazy build.

I think LTD's rotatable sub-baffle idea is borderline genius and should be part of the plan. If it was removable from the front, then the subenclosure could be sealed and everything would still be accessible, including xo components. You could rear mount the 12" as well for the nice aesthetic look and time alignment ease. By the way, LTD, what program do you use to draw with? I haven't found one I can figure out.

A practical consideration: Are you going to offer a flatpack for this? That will be pretty darn heavy and shipping costs will be quite high. That might need to play a factor (neo drivers?).

Agree with Face "Besides LF extension, how do Erich's CD's compare SQ wise? I would prefer to use the model that has the best HF extension (smallest VC and exit) and still digs low enough to cross safely to the midrange.
With a 12" mid I would lean towards the SEOS 15 as it will allow plenty of flexibility in the crossover region. Plus it's readily available unlike the SEOS 18.
"

Bill, as far as I know, having read what others say about the subject. Neo motors still benefit from demod rings, but not to the same extent as Ferrite motors as they aren't quite as conductive as Alnico. But given the cost/benefit it seems they aren't quite as common in pro woofers.

Just my $.02, but I'd go for a higher quality 18" over a mediocre quality 21". Since the lower woofer will be amped separately and DSP'd, one could also build another box to place on top of this speaker with another 18" to beef up the bass while benefitting with room modes at the same time.

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