AVS Group Project......Speaker Name: SEOS Maximus - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 05:29 PM
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I believe the 115 is 3.5cuft for a Q of .7

And in regards to the design goals I was just thinking you were doing a SMD crazy design was all. So I like the fact that this design can reach down low. I forgot how big that WG was. eek.gif Is that still the 15 or is that the SEOS 18 in the picture?
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post #452 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 05:57 PM
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depends how much power you have at your disposal.

generally, the idea would be a little more power than is required to get them to xmax. in 4 cubic feet that is about 1500 watts in model, so 2000-2500 watts is probably about the right power for a 4 cubic footer with that kind of driver. the f3 point may be up in the 60hz+ ballyard though, so quite a bit of eq.

if only running with 500 watts or so, the driver won't get to xmax even in an 8 cubic footer.

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post #453 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I might as well ask another box question to get all the options out there. What's the smallest ported enclosure you would make if they were only going to be used down in the low 30's?
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post #454 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I might as well ask another box question to get all the options out there. What's the smallest ported enclosure you would make if they were going only going to be used down in the low 30's?

Don't compromise yet Erich!!!

Three Tempests = $1200
Four Dayton Ultimax 15's with iNuke Amps with DSP (2 of the 6000's) $1800

For $3000 for 3 speakers, I think you will have as good or better sound with the above. If you are going to compromise full range, I'd go with the above........

As an added bonus, you don't need to have multiple people help you move / place your speakers.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen
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post #455 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Sorry for the OT, but....

Not sure I buy the theory based on a single anecdotal event in which he states he did not measure the final freq responses, and that the goal was freq response uniformity while tinkering w/ phase, etc. the freq at which the mains should kick in has to do with the size of the room. Individual bass sources in small rooms make for VERY different experiences between seats. Don't think so? Try it. Just because folks in demos didn't complain because they were one one side of the room does not a good argument make.

It does, however, make for good marketing for someone trying to sell full-range LCRS speakers.

JSS
Consider that fullrange identical speakers in a 7.1 system correspond to 7 sources of bass in the room, not one. If the sound is mixed with the bass decorrelated, like most music, then you get multiple sources of bass.

I've never seen measurements of the bass in a home theater with all fullrange channels. I don't think the argument is as simple as "individual bass sources" vs multi-subs, though. Is is easy to find a home theater to listen to that only has one source of bass. It is much more difficult to listen to a home theater with fullrange channels (since there aren't many) and check the experience between seats.
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post #456 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The B&C 15" midrange came in today. I don't have the 21" B&C yet but I do have a 21" Celestion to do the quick speaker layout on the floor! biggrin.gif

That's an assembled Fusion-8 box thrown in for a size comparison. Of course the waveguide will be closer to the midrange.



Dang that looks beastly already. eek.gif


I certainly can't wait to see you get everything in a cabinet. I wonder how much it'd end up weighing in the end. biggrin.gif
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post #457 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 08:32 PM
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I'll take a pair to go with my si 24's they look like they go in the same room. Now I just need to figure out how to fit them in the room. smile.gif
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post #458 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 08:34 PM
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Dang you guys never let a guy be happy always got other cool s.it coming out.
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post #459 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 09:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hoodcom View Post

Dang that looks beastly already. eek.gif


I certainly can't wait to see you get everything in a cabinet. I wonder how much it'd end up weighing in the end. biggrin.gif

Maybe Erich could do a guess the weight contest for a couple of waveguides or small in store credit ;-) or just for fun.
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post #460 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 09:54 PM
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If he identfies the components and the overall size it is easy to pinpoint to less then 5lbs. Only a challenge if he doesn't show bracing.
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post #461 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 09:58 PM
 
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I mean exact weight to the nearest gram. I doubt many are that good at estimation plus there will likely be variations in mdf weight from one manufacture to another. Some of you guys are killjoys. :-P
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post #462 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 10:02 PM
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That's what u get with that username smile.gif
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post #463 of 1151 Old 05-23-2014, 10:05 PM
 
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That's what u get with that username smile.gif

Yours sounds like a sneeze :-)

Mine was ok till I started posting out of the Polk audio threads haha.
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post #464 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 12:16 AM
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That's what u get with that username smile.gif

I'm surprised we haven't heard any "that's what she said" comments when it comes to pokeme's user name!...lol tongue.gif
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post #465 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 01:09 AM
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"I might as well ask another box question to get all the options out there. What's the smallest ported enclosure you would make if they were only going to be used down in the low 30's?"

again, kind of depends on what you are trying to do and how much amp you've got.

red - 10 c.f. tuned 25hz
blue - 8 @ 28hz
green - 6 @ 28hz
purple - 5 @ 30hz

1w:


max spl (at 14mm excursion and 3400 watts of power):

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post #466 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 01:20 AM
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fwiw, i'd suggest something no smaller than about 8 cubic feet and go for a full range tuning, 22hz.



here is max spl with 3400, 2200, 1100, and 550 watts with the 21sw115 in such an enclosure.

550 and 1100 don't get the driver to xmax even in the low tuned cab. 2200 just barely and 3400+ would be a reasonable amp to put on such a box.


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post #467 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Basic configuration was a JBL 2226, 2123/2202 and CP380M on very large radial horns, all active."

obviously some very nice components there. where did you end up crossing in the 2226(15") to the 2123(10")?
This was the final config before I stopped gigging it and dismantled the lot. There were a lot of other parts tried in between.

As it was modular, the xover varied between 250 and 300Hz depending upon the stack. The higher was for the larger/louder set up. It's basically the same with the current surrounds at 300 and 1.7k, but I expect that will come down a little when I get the new QSC clone WGs.
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post #468 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 01:29 AM
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and if the cab were designed for max spl for a pro audio application, it would likely be put in about a 9 cubic footer and tuned to around 32hz or so, which gives this:



so all very different.

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post #469 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 01:31 AM
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do you have more details alpha niner?

was the mid sealed than crossed second order and the woofer low passed 4th order or something else?

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post #470 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 01:58 AM
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just in case some folks find the max spl charts a little confusing, i wrote up a short note explaining them here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1533028/how-to-read-and-interpret-excursion-and-maximum-spl-charts-for-a-ported-sub/

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post #471 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Consider that fullrange identical speakers in a 7.1 system correspond to 7 sources of bass in the room, not one. If the sound is mixed with the bass decorrelated, like most music, then you get multiple sources of bass.

I've never seen measurements of the bass in a home theater with all fullrange channels. I don't think the argument is as simple as "individual bass sources" vs multi-subs, though. Is is easy to find a home theater to listen to that only has one source of bass. It is much more difficult to listen to a home theater with fullrange channels (since there aren't many) and check the experience between seats.


I do understand what you are saying, but even with decorrelated bass, you have a single arrival time at the ears of a bass event regardless of direction. The very limited space between our ears is the deciding factor in determining what direction the LF is coming from, and has a cutoff before the direction of arrival cannot be determined due to increasing wavelength.

Scott Simonian has a theater with fullrange channels. We could ask him to bass manage and then not, and let him tell us/measure the difference.

I would find it VERY difficult to make a multi kilo-dollar investment based on the anectdotal evidence of a manufacturer selling said kilo-dollar speaker setups. In my experience, whenever I have found something 'off' in a recording I knew well, I could measure and find a freq response/impulse response abnormality. Using 7 'full range' sources in a small room guarantees response unique abnormalities from every channel save for at a single seat where most problems could be equalized out, making problems anywhere else in the room worse. Of course, listening to a recording for the first time, with no frame of reference, no freq response abnormality will seem 'off'. There is no reference to compare to.

The guy has a point in that steady-state signals are not a good way to measure. But MLS and swept sines are NOT steady state signals, and they are what most people (and Audyssey) use for measurements.

I think it would be a very interesting exercise to compare bass-managed vs not in a small room and then compare it to a 7.1 fullrange setup out in a field with no room effects; but by essentially stating that room modes don't matter, and that low freqs are directional make me suspect his logic. But what do I know.

I think the SEOS Maximus project would be awesome for anyone renovating the sound in an old movie theater, like the single screens that can be found in small towns around the US, where full-range channels would be justified, or in the uber-HTs of the world. Somewhere the impressive SPL capability would be used.


JSS
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post #472 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

fwiw, i'd suggest something no smaller than about 8 cubic feet and go for a full range tuning, 22hz.

Sometimes I wonder if people are just messing with my head! When I first said I'd like them to be full range, people thought it made no sense. I ease up and figure I might shoot for the mid 30's .......now we're back to tuning low. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I have an iNuke 3000 with DSP. I was told I needed one amp per speaker. But maybe I can use the 3000 for the mids and highs, and get a different amp for the bottom end? Maybe the 6000?

It looks like the system could be modular if it's a sealed enclosure with less volume needed. I doubt anyone would build the 21" model, so maybe I should make that one into one mammoth speaker, and go modular with the 18?
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post #473 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 06:44 AM
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I first want to get the SPL in the flat portion of the spectrum to where I want it - what I consider to be loud enough. If I have any excursion left after that, I'd spend it on deeper extension. Four 18's should be enough displacement to get both loud and deep.
It occurs to me that two of these speakers with the woofers at 2' and 6' under an 8' ceiling can serve as the source end of a DBA or SBA. (Flip the mid module around to get the waveguide down to ear height) Would a well executed DBA or SBA sound better than a multi-sub solution? It would certainly more uniform through the room. Maybe there is something to direct bass.
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post #474 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 06:52 AM
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Jack. That's what I've been pushing for. Although not for the bass response that appears anechoic down low, rather the anechoic bass response that appears between 50 and 200hz. IME it's the 50 to 200hz range that is influenced by the room the most, and I think vertically spread woofers goes a long ways to cleaning it up.

Back when chop shop was conceptualizing his build, this is how I pushed him. I also pushed him to make it modular so he could test this idea several different ways in the room and GP anechoic. I don't think he's been able to though (and possibly not interested in that level of testing).
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post #475 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JackNC View Post

It occurs to me that two of these speakers with the woofers at 2' and 6' under an 8' ceiling can serve as the source end of a DBA or SBA.

Sadly in my world this means Doing Business As and Small Business Administration. wink.gif So I'm not really sure what they stand for in the audio world. biggrin.gif
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post #476 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 07:34 AM
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single / double bass array.

method for not exciting/cancelling modes. the symmetry cancels odd order modes and the location doesn't excite 2nd, so most of the offensive modes are gone.

placement at 1/4 distances from boundaries is a one solution. the tall dual 18" could be used for that purpose.


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post #477 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 07:35 AM
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"Sometimes I wonder if people are just messing with my head! When I first said I'd like them to be full range, people thought it made no sense. I ease up and figure I might shoot for the mid 30's .......now we're back to tuning low."

different people offer different advice and as always it kind of depends what you want to do. since the goals are a little fuzzy so are the recommendations.

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post #478 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 07:39 AM
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"I have an iNuke 3000 with DSP. I was told I needed one amp per speaker. But maybe I can use the 3000 for the mids and highs, and get a different amp for the bottom end? Maybe the 6000?"

others have differing opinions on this. my view is that the mid/top could be run passively off the avr. the subwoofers could be powered. a 3000dsp bridged per sub would be good as would 1 channel ea from a 6000dsp.

one channel ea from a 3000 would give about 650 watts, so leaves a little on the table. but depending on what you think after you fire them up, you may not need any more.

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post #479 of 1151 Old 05-24-2014, 07:47 AM
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SBA is single bass array. The idea is to spread LF drivers across an end wall of a room - generally at 1/4 points on the wall. That helps to minimize the variations in modal excitation and create a plane wave that will propogate down the length of the room.

The DBA is the double bass array and takes to concept a step further to use both end walls and controls length modes as well. For that you needs 8 LF drivers - four front and four rear.

There's a thread about it around here somewhere ("double bass array - the modern concept in bass" or similar)

Edit: of course John is Johnny on the spot and beat me to it. wink.gif
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post #480 of 1151 Old 05-25-2014, 01:15 PM
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I hope there will be a full passive version or some option thereof. Even with 2-300w into the system we're looking at 110dB@20hz - 120dB@100hz in 8 c.f. tuned to 22hz according to winisd. For those not wanting a pro amp in the system, a low cost entry level power amp with 2-300w/ch could drive this system well. With 250w we're looking at 5mm excursion on the 21" woofer, keeping it at crusing level, which should mean low distortion.

The behringer signal splitter mentioned, would it degrade the signal at all? seemed like a good idea for a "hybrid" solution. I would stille like to see a passive XO/bi amp solution.
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