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post #61 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post

Some thoughts:

Passive XO pluss low XO frequency and high power handling = no good.
SEOS 18" wih dual mids is probably not much better than existing 15" designs in terms of pattern control and sound quality.

My sugestion for a 3 way would be.

SEOS 24 + large format. 5-600-8kHz. Drive units: Radian 951 or similar.
4x12" woofers = more surface area and thermal handling than a single 21" and will allow to cross higher making it easier to stick to passive XO. Drive units: AE TD12H or similar.
Supertweeter crossed with minimum 4th order @ 8kHz. I've tried this and there is no audible comb filtering when crossed steep and there is a benefit in terms of decay and dispersion. Drive units: Bullettweeter or small ring radiator CD.

Quick sketch:

This with the JBL 2402 tweeter could be very interesting, I would likely triamp them however. BMS has a compression driver just for mid someone pointed me at yesterday that could also work
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post #62 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:23 AM
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would it make sense to use a ribbon on the the very top? (not sure if 95db is efficient enough) http://www.parts-express.com/fountek-neocd35h-horn-loaded-ribbon-tweeter--296-703
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post #63 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Modular/stacked WMTMW using existing flatpacks for two 18" woofers, 18" SEOS with the best 1" CD, four good 6-7" mids 2x2 above and below the SEOS. (Side-by-side 6" produce narrower horizontal directivity than a 12", to extend directivity lower than the SEOS alone.)

I think I understand your layout idea. One issue is that dual 6's look a bit odd under a SEOS-18. Even rear mounted 8's almost look out of place. I'll try to get some real photos this weekend. Maybe three mid woofers instead of 2 would be better?

One expensive idea I had was to use three 5" Faital Pros under the SEOS-18, but the price was getting up there.
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post #64 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post

Some thoughts:

Passive XO pluss low XO frequency and high power handling = no good.
SEOS 18" wih dual mids is probably not much better than existing 15" designs in terms of pattern control and sound quality.

My sugestion for a 3 way would be.

SEOS 24 + large format. 5-600-8kHz. Drive units: Radian 951 or similar.
4x12" woofers = more surface area and thermal handling than a single 21" and will allow to cross higher making it easier to stick to passive XO. Drive units: AE TD12H or similar.
Supertweeter crossed with minimum 4th order @ 8kHz. I've tried this and there is no audible comb filtering when crossed steep and there is a benefit in terms of decay and dispersion. Drive units: Bullettweeter or small ring radiator CD.

You may have exceeded the driver budget just on the 4 woofers. So the speaker wouldn't sound so good without mids and highs. wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #65 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:37 AM
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I was going more for performance than appearance...hadn't considered six (2x3) but it might work. Whoever does the XO would sim for optimal spacing.

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post #66 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:38 AM
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I don't know if gargantuan is what I'd like to see here. Personally, I'd like to see something more like the AE TD18H+ along with the SEOS24 with a coax compression driver. Nothing crazy, but definitely a flagship compared to everything else currently offered on DIYSG, and can easily (imo) keep up (surpass?) with the "big boys" top offerings.
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post #67 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:57 AM
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PNW is basically suggesting what I did, because it works biggrin.gif The vertical directivity is important.

3 smaller mids might be ok. But I have to warn again about the complexities of big side by side mids. Their directivity is very strange. I disagree that it is wider than a 12" woofer. On paper it is, but in reality they have a rapidly changing directivity.
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post #68 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Modular/stacked WMTMW using existing flatpacks for two 18" woofers, 18" SEOS with the best 1" CD, four good 6-7" mids 2x2 above and below the SEOS. (Side-by-side 6" produce narrower horizontal directivity than a 12", to extend directivity lower than the SEOS alone.)

This ^ , or some iteration of it. The multiple mids, type, physical layout and implementation and blending with the SEOS, clearly being key.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

I don't know if gargantuan is what I'd like to see here. Personally, I'd like to see something more like the AE TD18H+ along with the SEOS24 with a coax compression driver. Nothing crazy, but definitely a flagship compared to everything else currently offered on DIYSG, and can easily (imo) keep up (surpass?) with the "big boys" top offerings.

Although this isn't necessarily the direction the OP wishes to go with this particular project, this is something I've mentioned before. A full tilt performance effort of the existing platform and form factor, drivers, cabinet, etc.

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post #69 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:02 AM
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post #70 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:14 AM
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Corner Loaded, a single 18 below a SEOS24 with BMS coax cd or Radian should be more than sufficient and has the benefit of being able to hide in the corners, which works in my room..

I made the box deeper on one side both because I needed the volume and I'm planning an absorber/baffle wall in front. This would be so much easier to design and build than the synergy concepts I've been playing with for a year but more expensive. My only concern with the 1.4" CD is that I don't at what frequency it begins beaming.
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post #71 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I don't think it would be cheaper. Who knows if anyone else would even build these, so I'd rather just stick with a passive design for myself because I don't have a miniDSP or 6-9 separate amps to power 2-3 of them.

I don't know much about crossover design, but if there's a way to make the big woofer(s) run off a different amp separate from the top, that would be okay. Maybe bi-amping it? I don't know, that's why I was asking for ideas.

That's true, probably wouldn't be cheaper if you factor in amps - my assumption was it will be run off an external amp as you said high power handling.

For active though, you could get a pretty crazy set up with an inuke nu4-6000, 1 channel for high, 1 for mid, bridged sub, with a single 2x4 minidsp , all together is only like 500 bucks. So 1000 bucks to power and cross over two speakers with HUGE amounts of power available. It would basically just be like sitting a speaker on top of a subwoofer.


All the components required though, I'm pretty sure a minidsp is cheaper, and it would allow you to test different crossover settings to get the perfect response.
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post #72 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:48 AM
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Ya, should be active / passive. We did this with ChopShop and eventually he conceeded as well. The low XO between the mids and woofers is just so hard to do passively. Bill will talk sense into you tongue.gif
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post #73 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:48 AM
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Why the need for full range ? Wouldn't anyone building these employ a proper subwoofer solution for sub 80hz performance? I'd be more interested in this design minus the 21" sub driver, and more emphasis on the mids and highs


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post #74 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

I don't know if gargantuan is what I'd like to see here. Personally, I'd like to see something more like the AE TD18H+ along with the SEOS24 with a coax compression driver. Nothing crazy, but definitely a flagship compared to everything else currently offered on DIYSG, and can easily (imo) keep up (surpass?) with the "big boys" top offerings.

That stuff can come later, and certainly goes over budget on this design.

Plus taming that BMS coaxial takes a lot of time......and that's if I got one really soon to start working. As mentioned, Bwaslo is moving soon so this project can't take months to do or wait for parts.
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post #75 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 12:04 PM
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Woah!!

This thread is FULL of WIN!!!

Lot's to go through here and just skimmed through.... I've got some ideas. wink.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #76 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 01:04 PM
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Modular Design: choose your level of overdesign.
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post #77 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 01:04 PM
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Erich,
Thought a bit more about your 6-mid WMTMW idea...and I like it! Here's how I'd manage midrange horizontal directivity:

-Series parallel the four "corner" drivers.
-Shunt the four series parallel drivers with a series RC...20mfd & 10ohms (just starting values)
-Series the above shunted drivers with paralleled center mids.

All six mids will share the LF load.
Broadband sensitivity of the six will be the same as the two paralleled center drivers.
Vary R&C values to adjust horizontal directivity for a good blend between the (near omni) 18 and the SEOS.

I'm sure Bill knows how to do this.

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post #78 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 01:06 PM
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Modular Design: choose your level of overdesign.

+1

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post #79 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

rsvr79, that is a very creative design.

how would the 8" mid in a compression chamber work on the seos 24"? are you suggesting just firing it into the horn with no modification to the horn itself? if so, what kind of upper limit in frequency response would something like that have?

It probably isn't even possible, much less feasible. I'll have to throw some math at it when I get home. I've read that you will only get a benefit of a horn for three octaves from the tuning frequency before the driver starts beaming. So if the folded horn was tuned for 30 Hz, the SEOS 24 would have to pick up by 240 Hz, which is significantly below its recommended lower crossover frequency. A ported woofer below the SEOS would be better. I'd probably do a ported woofer up to 500 Hz, SEOS 24 from 500-2K (2 octaves), SEOS 15 from 2K-12K (2.5 octaves), and bullet tweeter from 12K+.

The 8" is just a front loaded horn with a compression chamber. The rear chamber is sealed or ported to taste and tuning, the woofer fires into a compression chamber, and the horn starts on the other side of the chamber. A lot of high end horn systems use this design, but I'm most familiar with Avantegarde because I wanted to see how difficult it would be to replicate a Trio Classico with DIYSG products. A SEOS should be ok with the setup, because a compression driver is basically a front loaded horn anyways.

I used a B&C 8" because I already had one built from a previous design and I didn't want to reinvent the wheel. Same with the waveguides. It's actually a SEOS 18 that I scaled up or down to fit the dimensions of the 24 and the 15.

edit a modular design I drew up a while ago. It was designed around 12's, 6's, and a SEOS 12, but there's no reason it couldn't be scaled up.
http://imgur.com/a/Dse9M

HFHlY3j.png
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post #80 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 01:24 PM
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I like the look of tower speakers, but most say it would be pointless if i cross it with a sub, All I want is a high efficiency speaker that sounds great from 80hz-20khz and can keep up with commercial speakers in that frequency range for an affordable price,
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post #81 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 01:25 PM
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How about something like I recently built, except use a 15" woofer instead of the 12'.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1531322/introducing-my-monolith-speakers
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post #82 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Woofers need to be at least 18" for this design. biggrin.gif

FaitalPro makes some 1.4" compression drivers that could be used on a SEOS-24, but they might not go low enough for an 18" woofer. So we'd need midranges. But then they might not go high enough, so we might need a 1" CD up top. Seems too complicated compared to one of the 3 ways drawn up earlier.

I'm not against three 5" or 6" mids if it could make things easier. Basically a 1099 on 'roids.
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post #83 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 02:43 PM
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http://www.parts-express.com/faitalpro-m5n8-80-5-neodymium-professional-midrange-12-ohm--294-1143

Three of these little woofs would play nice in this app, but $$$
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post #84 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Also, that new BMS ribbon planner that someone linked on the first page looks absolutely amazing!

It may look like a ribbon driver but is really a 459x coaxial compression driver coupled to a apparatus to bend the wave to a planar wave in order to fit in live sound line arrays.
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post #85 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 03:07 PM
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if MTM/WMTWM, it still seems that using an 18" with the SEOS-24 with the BMS4595ND or similar is the way to go. Coaxes aren't cheap, but you wouldn't be needing 6x mids ($$$) and phase issues are less complicated. You'd also be able to get the c-c spacing on the woofers closer by about a foot.
http://www.usspeaker.com/bms%204595nd-1.htm
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post #86 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stumbo View Post

http://www.parts-express.com/faitalpro-m5n8-80-5-neodymium-professional-midrange-12-ohm--294-1143

Three of these little woofs would play nice in this app, but $$$

Yes, those were the ones I was going to use above an 18" woofer a while ago, but not sure that project will ever pan out due to the end price.

I wonder about three sealed back 6.5" midranges from Eminence. I'll have to draw that out.
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post #87 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

if MTM/WMTWM, it still seems that using an 18" with the SEOS-24 with the BMS4595ND or similar is the way to go. Coaxes aren't cheap, but you wouldn't be needing 6x mids ($$$) and phase issues are less complicated. You'd also be able to get the c-c spacing on the woofers closer by about a foot.
http://www.usspeaker.com/bms%204595nd-1.htm


That ends up being too expensive. The CD is $700, the waveguide is $200. We're pretty much at $1000 before any woofers or crossover.

Plus, that's a design that might be done at a later time anyway.
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post #88 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 03:49 PM
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So would this have better midrange and high frequency than the fusion 12 or the cinema 88/tux99
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post #89 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
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Plus, that's a design that might be done at a later time anyway.

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post #90 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

That ends up being too expensive. The CD is $700, the waveguide is $200. We're pretty much at $1000 before any woofers or crossover.

Plus, that's a design that might be done at a later time anyway.

Gotcha. I thought the 24" waveguide was already being considered. If it was, then the $700 coax takes the place of the normal CD + 6 mids and depending on CD and mids, it could be cheaper! lol.
I will say though that some of the designs people are putting up are interesting! I'm just tagging along now. Something will float the top and perk your interest more than the others smile.gif
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