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post #91 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

biggrin.gifcool.gif


Hey, Erich. My speakers are saying, "Come at me, bro!"

tongue.gif


Did you end up using dual 10's in each of your speakers? I don't think so.

Did you end up using a BA-750 for the compression driver? I can't recall that either. The BA stands for Bad Azz in case you weren't sure! biggrin.gif

My speakers are saying 'Bring It'!! cool.gif
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post #92 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 04:25 PM
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Oh. It is on, Mister!

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post #93 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Oh, it is on Mister!

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watch it, or Erich will find a way to make his avatar be the speaker :P
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post #94 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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post #95 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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What about skipping the dual or triple midranges and just go with a single 12" midbass woofer with a 21" woofer underneath?

Maybe like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/bc-12pe32-12-midbass-speaker--294-660
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post #96 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 05:07 PM
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I dont get the double/triple midrange approach for an ultimate level speaker system. It looks kinda cool but its been done.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #97 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

What about skipping the dual or triple midranges and just go with a single 12" midbass woofer with a 21" woofer underneath?

Maybe like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/bc-12pe32-12-midbass-speaker--294-660[/quote


Like that
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post #98 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 05:41 PM
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Then you might as well build a Fusion 12 and a multi sub system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

What about skipping the dual or triple midranges and just go with a single 12" midbass woofer with a 21" woofer underneath?

Maybe like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/bc-12pe32-12-midbass-speaker--294-660
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post #99 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 05:49 PM
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Chances are, someone who can afford multiple $1000 Maximus's, can also afford to go fully active with external amps, and have all the power in the world.

LR $1000 x2 = $2000
NU1000DSP $200 x 2 = $400
NU3000DSP $280 x 2 = $560
Total: $2960

LCR $1000 x3 = $3000
NU1000DSP $200 x 3 = $600
NU3000DSP $280 x 3 = $840
Total: $4440

An extra $480 per speaker isn't so bad; and no soldering is involved.

At least the option exists if they want to.
Active/passive mix is another option.
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post #100 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

I dont get the double/triple midrange approach for an ultimate level speaker system. It looks kinda cool but its been done.

I haven't said it was going to be the ultimate speaker. Big and loud.
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post #101 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

I dont get the double/triple midrange approach for an ultimate level speaker system. It looks kinda cool but its been done.

Really at the end of the day hasn't everything been done?
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post #102 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Then you might as well build a Fusion 12 and a multi sub system.

You're thinking home theater.........and not thinking about doing a fun project 'just because we can'.

The Fusion-12 with a multi sub system wouldn't be the same. If someone wants 2 really big full range speakers, the Maximus would be better than some Fusion-12's and 5 subwoofers scattered around with wires all over the place.



BassThatHz, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. If $1000 is someone's maximum amount, they probably will care tacking on an extra 50%. If $1k is a lot for someone to spend on a speaker.....$500 extra certainly will be. I highly doubt anyone else would be building these but me anyway.
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post #103 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I don't know much about crossover design, but if there's a way to make the big woofer(s) run off a different amp separate from the top, that would be okay. Maybe bi-amping it? I don't know, that's why I was asking for ideas.

How about a plate amp with speaker-level inputs for the bass, and then passive above it? (Like AJ's Soundfield Audio Monitor 1.) Something like the 500W Ying amp might actually be cheaper than a good LF passive crossover.

Here's what I'd like to throw into the ring:
Top: biggest SEOS you're willing to use, your best 1" CD
Midbass: B&C's new 12NBX100, open baffle (look at that FR!)
Bass: B&C 21SW152 in open baffle + out-of-phase backwards-facing closed box 15 powered by plate amp so you can adjust the radiation pattern in the room.

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post #104 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsvr79 View Post

edit a modular design I drew up a while ago. It was designed around 12's, 6's, and a SEOS 12, but there's no reason it couldn't be scaled up.
http://imgur.com/a/Dse9M

HFHlY3j.png
My surrounds are like that. Here's the sketch I did some time ago to mock up the idea before building the crappy mdf boxes they're currently in.



They use TD15, TD10 and a JBL Ewave WG, but I'll probably order the QSC clones from Parts Express soon as the rebuild is to start as soon as I can get some time on the big table saw. These are active of course.
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post #105 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Really at the end of the day hasn't everything been done?

Perhaps...but the Tux1099 already has the side by side mids. I assume Erich would want something different, but all who remember the Bad News Bears know what happens when you assume.

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post #106 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

Perhaps...but the Tux1099 already has the side by side mids. I assume Erich would want something different, but all who remember the Bad News Bears know what happens when you assume.
IMO (and I'm not the one invested here lol) different only matters to me if it achieves something greater than the conventional.
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post #107 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Modular/stacked WMTMW using existing flatpacks for two 18" woofers, 18" SEOS with the best 1" CD, four good 6-7" mids 2x2 above and below the SEOS. (Side-by-side 6" produce narrower horizontal directivity than a 12", to extend directivity lower than the SEOS alone.)

+1



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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'm not completely sure that I understand what the application is for this product. ?

That's when I know we're on the right track with this design. biggrin.gif

No design has been set in stone and I'm hoping for more ideas. But it's got to be big and crazy.

what i meant is whether or not you want to get the highest efficiency out of the system for a setup powered by an avr at something like 100-200 watts

OR

maximize output using massive power amplification and drivers with extreme power handling/output potential.

BECAUSE

those call for two radically different designs.




Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post

Some thoughts:

Passive XO pluss low XO frequency and high power handling = no good.

+1

a low crossover point would require a very large inductor, aka "choke", right in front of the woofer. that will heat up, increase resistance and generally isn't a good idea...which of course is why you almost never see it done, especially in pro audio applications.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post



Plus, that's a design that might be done at a later time anyway.

biggrin.gifcool.gif


Hey, Erich. My speakers are saying, "Come at me, bro!"

tongue.gif

have you finally got them all properly set up and integrated?

for what they are, yours are probably about as good as one can do.







Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Then you might as well build a Fusion 12 and a multi sub system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

What about skipping the dual or triple midranges and just go with a single 12" midbass woofer with a 21" woofer underneath?

Maybe like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/bc-12pe32-12-midbass-speaker--294-660

+1






Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

I dont get the double/triple midrange approach for an ultimate level speaker system. It looks kinda cool but its been done.

Really at the end of the day hasn't everything been done?

+1

more often than not.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Then you might as well build a Fusion 12 and a multi sub system.

You're thinking home theater.........and not thinking about doing a fun project 'just because we can'.

The Fusion-12 with a multi sub system wouldn't be the same. If someone wants 2 really big full range speakers, the Maximus would be better than some Fusion-12's and 5 subwoofers scattered around with wires all over the place.


tux and i are on the same page here. the "subs" are just the woofer channel, whether or not they are in the same enclosure. running them as "subs" allows for separate power to them, which is where all the power in a system like this is required.







i'll submit a suggestion in a bit. :-)
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post #108 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 08:44 PM
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Man that's a lot of quotes ltd02 smile.gif
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post #109 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, if you guys don't think the dual woofers side by side is a good idea, then maybe MTM is better. The side by side ones would make 2 enclosures much easier with the subwoofer in the bottom one, but that's alright.

I put in the Fusion-12 for size comparison. biggrin.gif Keep in mind the ports can be changed a lot. I was even thinking side porting would be just fine for these speakers.

The center of the waveguide height in the first big speaker is around 44" off the ground. Second one is about 42". Third is about 41" up. All would use the BA-750 compression driver to allow for a lower crossover.



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post #110 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 08:53 PM
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Erich I am far from one of the experts here, but to match directivity I think you need to cross high to a smallish mid or cross low to a larger mid (or side by side mids) so your last diagrams may not work well, or at least not use the BA to potential. Or use a horn on the mids to control directivity another way. Or cross ridiculously low like the noesis where everything is omni.
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post #111 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Okay, if you guys don't think the dual woofers side by side is a good idea, then maybe MTM is better. The side by side ones would make 2 enclosures much easier with the subwoofer in the bottom one, but that's alright.

I put in the Fusion-12 for size comparison. biggrin.gif Keep in mind the ports can be changed a lot. I was even thinking side porting would be just fine for these speakers.

The center of the waveguide height in the first big speaker is around 44" off the ground. Second one is about 42". Third is about 41" up. All would use the BA-750 compression driver to allow for a lower crossover.




The Tempest looks like a tiny little bookshelf speaker next to those monsters!...lol eek.gif
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post #112 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 08:56 PM
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Lol I am referring to 10 and 12" mids as "smallish". This place is ruining me biggrin.gif
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post #113 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Or cross ridiculously low like the noesis where everything is omni.

I think one of the designers said that if there are 2 mid woofers under the waveguide and the crossover is low enough, it acts like a point source type set up. I'm not sure where that crossover point would be though.
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post #114 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 09:04 PM
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YES! Been waiting for this a while now.
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post #115 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I think one of the designers said that if there are 2 mid woofers under the waveguide and the crossover is low enough, it acts like a point source type set up. I'm not sure where that crossover point would be though.

For two side by side 8" I'd assume around 700hz if my extrapolation is correct.

W-M-T-M-W All the way. 18-(2x8")-SEOS 18-(2x8")-18
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post #116 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 09:42 PM
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similar to what many have suggested already.

i'm not sure why one would want to run those 18's passively, but to each his own.

seos 15 with quad 8's in a sealed enclosure with something like a 150-250 or so f3/q=0.707 would allow them to be run with no high pass crossover components.

18's ported and tuned to whatever the user wants. higher for more sensitivity/output. lower for more extension/sub-bass.

at 2' x 2' x 6.5'+ they would seem to qualify for the maximus label.

height was adjusted to get the horn to about 44" height.

woofers such as the 18ps76 could be used and are pretty cheap too, ~$200 ea and a pair give more than 120db output potential from 20hz with just about any tuning. so these speakers may not end up costing a fortune while producing quite a bit of output.

a plate amp or something to power the 18's would seem like a logical thing to do. several companies do something similar. passive midtops/powered bottom end.


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post #117 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I think one of the designers said that if there are 2 mid woofers under the waveguide and the crossover is low enough, it acts like a point source type set up. I'm not sure where that crossover point would be though.

For two side by side 8" I'd assume around 700hz if my extrapolation is correct.

W-M-T-M-W All the way. 18-(2x8")-SEOS 18-(2x8")-18

haha! we really were on the same page! that is what i was working on too. :-) well, i stuck a seos15 in there, but details...details... ;-)

and yes, something in that ballpark for the cross should be low enough for the effect that is being described.

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post #118 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

similar to what many have suggested already.

i'm not sure why one would want to run those 18's passively, but to each his own.

seos 15 with quad 8's in a sealed enclosure with something like a 150-250 or so f3/q=0.707 would allow them to be run with no high pass crossover components.

18's ported and tuned to whatever the user wants. higher for more sensitivity/output. lower for more extension/sub-bass.

at 2' x 2' x 6.5'+ they would seem to qualify for the maximus label.

height was adjusted to get the horn to about 44" height.

woofers such as the 18ps76 could be used and are pretty cheap too, ~$200 ea and a pair give more than 120db output potential from 20hz with just about any tuning. so these speakers may not end up costing a fortune while producing quite a bit of output.

a plate amp or something to power the 18's would seem like a logical thing to do. several companies do something similar. passive midtops/powered bottom end.



Now that looks truly bad-ass!! great stuff as usual, LTD.
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post #119 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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LTD02,

As mentioned earlier, I don't care how those big woofers are powered, I just don't want an all active speaker.

I've drawn out that design you posted when Jeff was working on the 88 Special and asked him if using four of the 8" woofers should be considered as an option. He said something about them getting a bit louder and handling more power, but not bringing much more to the table for the increased size. But I can't recall if I mentioned the 18's up top and well as the bottom. Or maybe he just realized I was insane to consider that for home use. biggrin.gif


The BA-750 on the SEOS-18 can cross low enough to the side by side woofers to act as a point source. I believe it was Pete Schumacher that first mentioned it to me. I thought about using the BA-750 in the 88-Special, but in the end went with the DNA-360 so people weren't questioning if the speaker was 'timbre matched' to other models.
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post #120 of 1178 Old 05-16-2014, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

haha! we really were on the same page! that is what i was working on too. :-) well, i stuck a seos15 in there, but details...details... ;-)

and yes, something in that ballpark for the cross should be low enough for the effect that is being described.

What is that saying "great minds think alike"? biggrin.gif
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