AVS Group Project......Speaker Name: SEOS Maximus - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:05 PM
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LTD those look pretty wicked.

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post #122 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:09 PM
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Don't Ltd speakers look like what you think a rock stars home speakers are smile.gif
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post #123 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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That design was drawn up back when the brainstorming was going on for the 88 Special and the custom 8" woofers. It wasn't posted because it didn't fall in the "Preferably no taller than 5' tall" category for the Maximus. wink.gif

If people think we should go with something that tall, I'd reconsider it. But the height might just be too tall and pretty much kill any thoughts of shipping baffles if anyone was crazy enough to duplicate them.

The waveguide would only be 32" off the ground and I'm not sure if people would want to put a speaker that big up on stands. If the waveguide gets moved up to 42" high, the speaker would be 75" tall.
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post #124 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 10:52 PM
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Could you dual oppose the 18s on front and back(or sides) at bottom of Ltd/tux design and reduce overall height then raise wg to desired height?
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post #125 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:06 PM
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erich, across the past few years, you have become the expert on creative ways to cnc cut these things.

do you think it would be possible to make this design as a 3 piece baffle, kind of like this (to facilitate shipping)?



the idea would be that the mid panel would either mount from the back ("innie") or sit on top of the main baffle ("outtie") depending on what folks think looks best (with edges rounded over of course).
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post #126 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:10 PM
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tux/anybody, any idea what 8" midrange might work best in something like this without breaking the bank?

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post #127 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:11 PM
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Or do it fully modular, 3 boxes.
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post #128 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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With the first Maximus design I thought the mids and waveguide could be in an enclosure sitting on top of the big pro woofers. The woofers could be flush against the wall but the mids and waveguide section could be toed in as needed.

But once the big woofer goes up top, things get a lot harder to work with. Shipping something that tall is still doable, just expensive.
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post #129 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

tux/anybody, any idea what 8" midrange might work best in something like this without breaking the bank?

How about this
https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-delta-pro-8a-8-midrange-8-ohm--290-507

https://www.parts-express.com/bc-8ps21-8-woofer--294-654
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post #130 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383-s-10 View Post

Could you dual oppose the 18s on front and back(or sides) at bottom of Ltd/tux design and reduce overall height then raise wg to desired height?

Great idea. My only concern would be the depth of the enclosure would really be getting out there from the wall at roughly 22" deep.




LTD02, the Beta-8 is a really nice woofer. I've also got them in 16 ohm for more flexibility.

I drew up a design with the four 8" woofers around the SEOS-18 and just a single 21" B&C underneath.....looks a little funky.
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post #131 of 1174 Old 05-16-2014, 11:24 PM
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here is a quad set of b&c ps21. 1w1m sensitivity is around 100db, which should be just fine for something like this. with no compression, 100 watts gets 120db @1m.



measurement looks pretty flat through the midrange.



http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/09/b-8ps21-pro-high-sensitivity-8_08.html

looks good too! well, at least not bad. ;-)



available in 16 ohm too if 4 net is ok. otherwise, 8 ohm series paralleled for 8 ohms net might be the more amp friendly choice.
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post #132 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 01:16 AM
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^^ Zaph has also tested the 8PS21 here.
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post #133 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 01:53 AM
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wow.

i didn't know that it was *that* good. it appears to hang with some pretty good drivers. thanks.

another thing, by using 4 of them, harmonic distortion will also be reduced greatly.

if 4 of them give 12db more spl for the same power and excursion, and distortion scales at about 2x drive level, then having 4 of them will reduce distortion by about 24db compared to a single unit.

maybe not the smoothest impedance plot, but perhaps that is the tradeoff of high sensitivity drivers?

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post #134 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 03:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

How about a plate amp with speaker-level inputs for the bass, and then passive above it? (Like AJ's Soundfield Audio Monitor 1.) Something like the 500W Ying amp might actually be cheaper than a good LF passive crossover.

Here's what I'd like to throw into the ring:
Top: biggest SEOS you're willing to use, your best 1" CD
Midbass: B&C's new 12NBX100, open baffle (look at that FR!)
Bass: B&C 21SW152 in open baffle + out-of-phase backwards-facing closed box 15 powered by plate amp so you can adjust the radiation pattern in the room.

This is what I'm in the midst of accomplishing with my fusion 12s at the moment. Also gets the waveguide to the proper height when the speaker is inverted. My powered subs are dual opposed 12s that fire up and down (still under construction waiting for my bash amps).
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post #135 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 03:48 AM
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That WM/MTM/MW looks awesome:) I like it 6 feet tall as well!

A setup with LCR for HT use with 6 x 18" woofers tuned to around 30hz will give insane output according to my winisd model. Even with modest power into it. Wouldn't it be possible to have a choice of passive or active system? I would prefer passive myself. Power is not that expensive. An LCR setup powered by an Emotiva XPA-3 (799$) will give around 129dB@50hz, 126dB@30hz and even 114dB20hz according to my winisd. Even 10w into each 18" give tremendous output. Each speaker with 20w into the 18" woofers will give around 107dB@30hz - then combine that with a stereo setup or LCR.

At any rate, it will be completely overkill most rooms! I guess thats the purpose smile.gif

I would favor the 2x18" design to keep volume and size just slightly more modest.

The SEOS18 and 24 would have to be the glasfiber ones right? so cost goes up on that also. Not sure if the 1000$ mark was set in stone, but even 2 x 18" with SEOS15 BA750 and some 8" drivers will be around that easy right?
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post #136 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 07:00 AM
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Well....if you could source a custom 30" woofer, something like the classic ElectroVoice Patrician 30W except with better power handling, you could build a clone of the TOTL Dominator MX-10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CvEO3Riy0 wink.gif
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post #137 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Well....if you could source a custom 30" woofer, something like the classic ElectroVoice Patrician 30W except with better power handling, you could build a clone of the TOTL Dominator MX-10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CvEO3Riy0 wink.gif

what a great clip!

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post #138 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

here is a quad set of b&c ps21. 1w1m sensitivity is around 100db, which should be just fine for something like this. with no compression, 100 watts gets 120db @1m.

available in 16 ohm too if 4 net is ok. otherwise, 8 ohm series paralleled for 8 ohms net might be the more amp friendly choice.

That's the same woofer used in the Alpha-8 under the EOS-8. It's a good woofer.
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post #139 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The Tempest looks like a tiny little bookshelf speaker next to those monsters!...lol eek.gif

I can do something close to number three for my left and right main. Dual TD12M's with the TPL-150H and I already have a pair of TD18H+'s in separate boxes right below the mains. Been debating on using the TD18H's or just cross the dual TD12M's straight to several 18" subs.

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post #140 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I can do something close to number three for my left and right main. Dual TD12M's with the TPL-150H and I already have a pair of TD18H+'s in separate boxes right below the mains. Been debating on using the TD18H's or just cross the dual TD12M's straight to several 18" subs.

What about doing a 3-way with the Beyma TPL-150 crossed to an AE TD12, (or TD10?), at say, 1,400hz and 140hz, having the TD18H coming in from 140hz down to say, 30hz? I would imagine that doing this would give you gobs of low end frequencies up through the critical mid-range areas.

Or; what about using the TPL-150 with a smaller, more traditional mid, or pair of mids in the 6" to 7" category from the likes of Seas or ScanSpeak and then crossover down low to the AE TD12 or AE TD15?

I really like the idea of using the TPL-150 instead of using the Seos-24 with a BMS-4594, which would definitely free up some additional funds for the mids and woofers. The BMS & Seos-24 combo would eat up the majority of the budget just with those two. The Radian 950BePB and 951BePB are very nice drivers but they themselves cost more than the $1000 budget for just the compression driver! I think that because of this, the TPL-150 is the best option for this build!
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post #141 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 09:39 AM
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Something like this ?




Even using standard home audio drivers mounted open baffle it plays extremely loud due to the swept volume of all the drivers. This test mule has the mid-woofers too far apart since there is a removable baffle for testing various tweeters.

Anyone wanting to go this route using sealed/ported enclosures needs to seriously consider a modular approach with the woofers as separate boxes given the weight of the speaker.
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post #142 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 09:53 AM
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I like the modular approach. I would be fine with just the bottom woofer for myself. Then total height more manageable
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post #143 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

Something like this ?

Even using standard home audio drivers mounted open baffle it plays extremely loud due to the swept volume of all the drivers. This test mule has the mid-woofers too far apart since there is a removable baffle for testing various tweeters.

Anyone wanting to go this route using sealed/ported enclosures needs to seriously consider a modular approach with the woofers as separate boxes given the weight of the speaker.

The modular approach also helps facilitate fleshing out the best boundary interactions ... lessening SBIR etc.

I believe a project such as the OP wishes to pursue, should explore efforts examining the cabinet interactions, with an eye on open back mids. Thomas, as always, good stuff.

With regard to your test mule, and removable HF baffle, any links to your findings? Your decades of DIY knowledge, is always a welcome addition, imo.


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post #144 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 10:19 AM
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Are 8" mids the best choice? (I understand they look right.) What's the expected crossover from a ba-750 and what combination of mids matches directivity at that frequency?
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post #145 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

The modular approach also helps facilitate fleshing out the best boundary interactions ... lessening SBIR etc.

I believe a project such as the OP wishes to pursue, should explore efforts examining the cabinet interactions, with an eye on open back mids. Thomas, as always, good stuff.

With regard to your test mule, and removable HF baffle, any links to your findings? Your decades of DIY knowledge, is always a welcome addition, imo.


Thanks and all the best
Hi,

There's a very basic thread on HT Guide. Unfortunately in the thread I used hosting server links to testing instead of attachments, and of course that server crashed. ....oops.

As a result I'm limited to a few photos on a memory stick.

My plan is to resurrect this 2009 project using higher efficiency drivers, since the prototype has a huge mismatch between any of the tweeters tried and the cone drivers.

As can be seen there's enough space for a nice WG or other tallish driver in the tweeter section.

The mids are dipoles but have open back enclosures, 4 sections of 10" dia, 12" long sonotube stuffed with batting. That of course lowers the cancellation frequency.

The limit to this section is the midwoofers side by side with a relatively large gap between the top and bottom pairs. Doing this creates a fairly narrow horizontal window. If the goal is to match that with a horn or WG having similar characteristics then this is an interesting design to play with. If the goal is a wide horizontal sweet spot other driver configurations should be considered.

If one wants to try the mids as dipoles then the drivers need ~6+mm of Xmax,
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post #146 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 11:39 AM
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Why not go with an all sealed setup? [SEOS18/BA750], AE TD15M, AE TD18+ or Rythmik 15" DS1500 CI - Direct Servo subwoofer. You could cross @~ 650hz and ~ 70hz. This configuration would minimize cabinet size (although still substantial) and be easy to build vs. various ported and high driver count designs. Furthermore, it would lend itself to modular design therefore shipping and manhandling would be facilitated.

This design would emphasize sound quality and would certainly dig low enough and play loud enough for almost any but the most hard core, and soon to be deaf smile.gif, SPL fanatics. Since the OP favors passive crossovers it would be nice not to skimp on the quality of the caps, inductors, etc.

A tweak could be the addition of a supertweeter to add a bit of air to the top end.,
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post #147 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

here is a quad set of b&c ps21. 1w1m sensitivity is around 100db, which should be just fine for something like this. with no compression, 100 watts gets 120db @1m.

measurement looks pretty flat through the midrange.

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2011/09/b-8ps21-pro-high-sensitivity-8_08.html

looks good too! well, at least not bad. ;-)

available in 16 ohm too if 4 net is ok. otherwise, 8 ohm series paralleled for 8 ohms net might be the more amp friendly choice.

Problem with those drivers and unfortunately most B&C midwoofers is the design of the cones are such that they aren't well behaved.

The little secret about cone behavior is something that can be seen by looking at the impedance plots, they need to be nice and smooth. Any little "ripples" indicate cone breakup and of course cone breakup is a bad thing.

Look at the impedance plot for the B&C 8PS21
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-654-bc-speakers-8ps21-specifications-3990.pdf

Here's Zaph's plot of the 8PS21



Now compare the above to something like the FaitalPRO 8PR200
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-1175-faitalpro-8pr200-8-specifications.pdf

Or even the ridiculously inexpensive FaitalPRO 8FE200
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-1171-faitalpro-8fe200-8-specifications.pdf

For another comparison here's a plot of the Peerless Nomex drivers seen in my prototype



Note that I'm not saying this is the single most important criteria, it's just one of many that should be considered when choosing a driver.
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post #148 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 04:44 PM
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If you really want to do something different...

This ported running up to 250hz...

http://www.parts-express.com/bc-21sw115-4-21-neodymium-subwoofer-4-ohm--294-691

Topped by this covering 250hz-900hz
http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=16581&prevloaded=1&&start=0

All topped off with a ba750 loaded seoes15.

Full range, does 130db program, and doesn't blow your 1,000 budget by too much. Big speaker at 24"wide x 48"high x24" deep.
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post #149 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 04:49 PM
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And if you want to upgrade it in the future, a second midhorn above the seos 15 and the 21" loaded into some crazy tapped horn would be slick. Should be about 107db/watt sensitive. Not sure what the ba/seos is capable of though.

Edit: Seems the ba750 should keep up no problem wink.gif
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post #150 of 1174 Old 05-17-2014, 05:20 PM
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"Any little "ripples" indicate cone breakup and of course cone breakup is a bad thing."

hi thomas. i don't recall seeing you around here very much even though your post count is quite high. i have followed and enjoyed many of your projects and posts at htguide.

anyway, i noticed those ripples in the impedance plot too and was wondering if that is just the price that one pays for having high sensitivity drivers similar to the way that the frequency response tends to be more ragged for high sensitivity drivers than it does for some others.

it seems that at least to some extent damping and sensitivity go hand in hand (but from opposite directions), so is this just the price to be paid for high sensitivity or is there a such things as a high sensitivity driver that is also very well damped?

OR, may it even be in part a measurement artifact because with the same power the high sensitivity driver is moving more, producing higher spl, and all the rest of it? so if the drive level of spl were normalized would the impedance plot show more similar ripple?

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