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post #181 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 01:01 PM
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ltd, I'm currently using a horizontal dual woofer setup (2x TD15m) and got a chance to take some measurements from the LP yesterday. They are in 3cu ft sealed boxes with 17.25" wide baffles, and positioned so the baffles are angled in about 10° relative to each other. Comb filtering sets in around 220hz (300 xo to a horn). I saved the data and I can post it if you guys want. I did measurements with a single woofer as well to confirm that what I was seeing wasn't just room effects.
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post #182 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 01:16 PM
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That would be great data Nate.
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post #183 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

is this possible/feasible?

If you decide you want to do that, there are at least a couple of passive possibilities.

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post #184 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 01:56 PM
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Its a good idea but you would probably run into unpleasant phase issues. Would probably make more sense to high pass the upper woofer with a second order to get phase in check. Then you might as well use a proper midrange. Then you're into 3 way. Which is better I think as you wouldn't need the low end out of the upper woofer with that much fire power in the lower woofers. A true 2.5 way tries to save the hassle of high passing and doubles the bass capability, but forfeits a dedicated mid. I'm not sure that's required here.

Thoughts?

Wouldn't it be the other way around?

Similar to how the JBL K2 and Everest work, I lowpass my bottom set of midbass ~150hz and let them all run either full range or 80hz cross.

At least I have tested this a bit. Just recently opened them all up. I'm always tinkering. tongue.gif

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post #185 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 03:27 PM
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Scott. I agree. Low pass the bottom woofer. High pass the upper woofer. Which makes it a 3 way. I think that would be more useful than a 2.5 way with that much woofer capability.
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post #186 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure the design with 4 woofers will work here due to cost. In the end it would probably be cheaper to buy the 18" or 21" B&C versus 3 decent 15" woofers.

Plus it starts looking like Scott's build, and as mentioned earlier, the plan is to make him ask "Why didn't I wait for the SEOS Maximus?" biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I've drawn up about 70-190 different layouts for this beast and will try to post some of them tonight to see which direction you guys think it should go.
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post #187 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

That would be great data Nate.

Here you go. I did 5 measurements across 4' of the couch centered on the lp, which is about 11' from the speakers. Single woofer first, then dual. Toed in towards the listening position, with the baffle about 20" off the front wall:



And dual woofers, same position. The baffles are not parallel, one is toed in a bit less. The idea was to decrease the ctc and possibly get better modal smoothing. Didn't help much in this position! That's part of my idea of using 2 woofers per speaker......a kind of quasi Parham flanking sub approach. Anyway here it is (check the comb filtering over 200hz):



I tried many different positions for each speaker (one's in a corner and the other is next to a large opening) and I tried several positions with a vertical woofer arrangement but the best compromise for modal smoothing is the dual woofers on the floor. I had to order some stuff from PE so I grabbed some coils so I can roll one off around 200hz.
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post #188 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:11 PM
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Just as an alternative consideration. Wouldn't respect the budget too well, but would be super hi-end. AE TD18H+ in large enclosure (or pair of 15") with Beyma TPL-150H in its own sub enclosure in the cabinet. Then an Iwata 300 with B&C DCM50 sitting on top of cabinet. Directivity to to lower Fc of the Iwata circa 500hz. That would be pretty state of the art.
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post #189 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm not sure the design with 4 woofers will work here due to cost. In the end it would probably be cheaper to buy the 18" or 21" B&C versus 3 decent 15" woofers.

Plus it starts looking like Scott's build, and as mentioned earlier, the plan is to make him ask "Why didn't I wait for the SEOS Maximus?" biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I've drawn up about 70-190 different layouts for this beast and will try to post some of them tonight to see which direction you guys think it should go.

Damn right! Now that's the spirit. smile.gif

Bring the pain! biggrin.gif

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Just as an alternative consideration. Wouldn't respect the budget too well, but would be super hi-end. AE TD18H+ in large enclosure (or pair of 15") with Beyma TPL-150H in its own sub enclosure in the cabinet. Then an Iwata 300 with B&C DCM50 sitting on top of cabinet. Directivity to to lower Fc of the Iwata circa 500hz. That would be pretty state of the art.

F**k yes. I love it, Josh.

Btw, the new TD15h+ looks pretty frickin' awesome. A pair of those, vented, is like a 4648-like cab but on steroids.

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post #190 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

Just as an alternative consideration. Wouldn't respect the budget too well, but would be super hi-end. AE TD18H+ in large enclosure (or pair of 15") with Beyma TPL-150H in its own sub enclosure in the cabinet. Then an Iwata 300 with B&C DCM50 sitting on top of cabinet. Directivity to to lower Fc of the Iwata circa 500hz. That would be pretty state of the art.


This build isn't really going after state of the art. Just big, powerful, and nice sounding.

That Reference Series stuff can come later down the road. biggrin.gif
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post #191 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

This build isn't really going after state of the art. Just big, powerful, and nice sounding.

That Reference Series stuff can come later down the road. biggrin.gif

So I guess the real real thing that must be nailed down is if you are going to fully commit to this being a 3-way passive or 3-way hybrid active/passive which imho is probably the way to go. These are two wholly different things and should be approached as such and with care.

This is getting interesting but in order to really move forward with a design this is the part you must figure out.

After this is figured out then we figure out the proper components to use.

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post #192 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:32 PM
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The other big consideration is whether they have to really truly be full range (f3 in 20s) or whether subs will be a given so f3 in the 50-60hz is optimal.

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post #193 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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It was mentioned a little earlier that most people seem to think it will have to be a 3 way active/passive hybrid deal with passive up top and active for the big woofers.

I forgot that I had an iNuke3000 that hadn't even been opened yet. I bought it about 1.5 years ago when one of the retailers had a price mistake. So that can be used for the bottom end, and then I'll have to get something else to power the passive top end.


AudioJosh,

I would like the low end to be as good or better than the 18" JBL's they use in large theaters. Can't recall the actual model right now. I think those get some type of EQ boost and go down into the mid to low 20's.
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post #194 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 05:02 PM
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My best guess would be for SEOS18 + 15" mid + 21/18" bass. Or you could employ another pair of 15" for bass, one below and one above to reduce vertical room modes and floor bounce.

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post #195 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I was sort of hoping for the dual something under the waveguide. A couple people though dual 10's would be too big side by side, but dual 8's crossed around 700hz would act like a point source.

I'm not sure how high up the waveguide will be with a 15" midwoofer.
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post #196 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I was sort of hoping for the dual something under the waveguide. A couple people though dual 10's would be too big side by side, but dual 8's crossed around 700hz would act like a point source.

I'm not sure how high up the waveguide will be with a 15" midwoofer.

A scaled version of Bagby's 88 design?

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post #197 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 07:03 PM
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nate, thanks for the data. i'm having a difficult time interpreting the data. the top graphic is 1 woofer, and the bottom is 2 woofers, correct? i'm having a difficult time seeing any comb filtering effects. the dark blue line is the furthest off axis measurement. following it in both plots, looks to be about the same. if the peaks and dips that you have measured were comb filtering they would be present in the second picture, but not in the first. hhmm...

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post #198 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I would like the low end to be as good or better than the 18" JBL's they use in large theaters. Can't recall the actual model right now. I think those get some type of EQ boost and go down into the mid to low 20's.

Sounds like the JBL 4645, 4645B, or 4645C with the 2245, 2241, and 2242 drivers, respectively, in about 8 ft^3 tuned to about 25 Hz. The 2245 was also used in the B460 sub for home use about 30 years ago...and the 2242 was (is?) used in the Synthesis S1S HT sub. The 2245 has a lower Fs (20 vs 35 Hz) but the 2242 has the highest power rating. The B460 used a BX63/BX63A active crossover to allow a stereo amp to be used to power the subwoofer....something now easily done with the better plate amps or DSP equipped pro amp....and would get you pretty flat to 20 Hz.....or skip the bass boost (about 6db @ 24 Hz) by building the 12 ft^3 cabinet. Not sure if anyone builds a driver quite like the 2245 since cheap power has eliminated the need for a high efficiency subwoofer that needs a big box and pretty respectable mid-range performance.
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post #199 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 07:29 PM
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"The other big consideration is whether they have to really truly be full range (f3 in 20s) or whether subs will be a given so f3 in the 50-60hz is optimal."

maybe design it for something around a 30hz tuning, but have ports that can be cut or ordered shorter for higher tuning.



"I would like the low end to be as good or better than the 18" JBL's they use in large theaters. Can't recall the actual model right now."

2242h is the mac daddy.



"I'm not sure the design with 4 woofers will work here due to cost."

this one is $169 and surely you can get them for less than that.

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-kappa-pro-15b-15-professional-midbass-woofer-16-ohm--290-457

http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/290-457--kappa-pro-15b-spec-sheet.pdf



edit: just noticed that I linked up the 16 ohm (b) version. the 8 ohm (a) version should perform similarly.



again though, it really depends if you are shooting for high sensitivity to be used with an avr, or shooting for max spl with outboard amps. the cost of 3 15's is about the same as a single 21. both have about the same max spl. the 3 15's have about 10db more sensitivity in the upper bass though.



"Not sure if anyone builds a driver quite like the 2245 since cheap power has eliminated the need for a high efficiency subwoofer that needs a big box and pretty respectable mid-range performance."

definitely becoming a rarity.

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post #200 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 07:31 PM
 
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If a plate amp with speaker level inputs is used that had a good crossover in it that could pass avr power to the passive top maybe. Just an unoriginal idea.
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post #201 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 07:34 PM
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Ya, the data is difficult to interpret. A series of GP measurements would be best to analyze this.
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post #202 of 1151 Old 05-19-2014, 10:28 PM
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"I've got about 10-15 different layouts and will post them all in the same place soon. You might have missed the MTM over the 18" or 21" woofer drawing I posted. It gets the waveguide at the correct level and doesn't have 2 mid woofers side by side. Not sure if that's a good idea or not."

which one is your favorite erich?




"I don't like MTMs with big waveguides much. My first shot at a quasi-econowave tried to use four 4" midwoofs, two each above and below the Ewave waveguide. Didn't work well at all, (verticaI performance was terrible)."

paul did a really nice job with this one. maybe with the ba750, the crossover point could be low enough to make it work for folks who will be more or less ear-level-axis with the waveguide.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1309080/is-there-any-advantage-to-a-mtm-design-with-a-waveguide/0_50#post_19875595

the jbl dms-1 was a horn loaded mtm with 12' drivers crossed in around 1khz. maybe it worked so well in studio because again the ear level of the listener is known and doesn't move much, while the off axis cancellation helped reduce reflections off the control board or other such. ?

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post #203 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

nate, thanks for the data. i'm having a difficult time interpreting the data. the top graphic is 1 woofer, and the bottom is 2 woofers, correct? i'm having a difficult time seeing any comb filtering effects. the dark blue line is the furthest off axis measurement. following it in both plots, looks to be about the same. if the peaks and dips that you have measured were comb filtering they would be present in the second picture, but not in the first. hhmm...

You know, I think you're right. I haven't had much time to sit down and really look at this, and as mentioned in room measurements suck (I'm going to build a large platform to hang these suckers off my deck once the horn tops are done to do the crossover work). I just compared every measurement one for one and they're all fairly similar, accounting for room effects and the fact that the mic position wasn't exact.

Back to the MAXIMUS, unless Erich changes his mind and decides he likes the horizontal woofer arrangement. I think something similar to the JBL Everest would be cool with a SEOS 18 over dual 15s.
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post #204 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 05:00 AM
 
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My best guess would be for SEOS18 + 15" mid + 21/18" bass. Or you could employ another pair of 15" for bass, one below and one above to reduce vertical room modes and floor bounce.

If you have an 18" or 21" woofer, then what would be the point in a 15" mid? Wouldn't having a mid that large make it less optimal for crossing over up past 1,000hz? I wonder if using a more HIFI type mid from the lines of Seas, Moral, or ScanSpeak would be better sounding? Perhaps a pair of them. The problem, I would imagine, is finding one that has high enough sensitivity that can go down to 150hz to 220hz, depending on where the 18" or 21" woofer needs to be crossed over.
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post #205 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 05:29 AM
 
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If you have an 18" or 21" woofer, then what would be the point in a 15" mid? Wouldn't having a mid that large make it less optimal for crossing over up past 1,000hz? I wonder if using a more HIFI type mid from the lines of Seas, Moral, or ScanSpeak would be better sounding? Perhaps a pair of them. The problem, I would imagine, is finding one that has high enough sensitivity that can go down to 150hz to 220hz, depending on where the 18" or 21" woofer needs to be crossed over.

Because it's cool.
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post #206 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 06:10 AM
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Actually its more technical than that. With a SEOS18, likely crossing @ 800hz or lower you want to match the directivity at the XO and keep sensitivity as high as possible. Here there just is no substitute for a 15" "mid" (say Beyma 15pb80 or AE TD15M)...well you possibly can go with multiple side by side smaller woofers like 8" maybe, but I am not sure it all works out perfectly well or not. No experience there. But if you want to keep the midrange as pure as possible, it is nice to offload some of the bass demand to the next larger woofer while keep sensitivity up (Erich wants to better the theater monitors that use JBL 18").

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post #207 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll lay out the 15" midrange today and see how high that makes the waveguide. If it's too high, we're probably going to head into uncharted territory with the dual 8's.

AudioJosh, if the dual 8's were crossed around 700hz or so, wouldn't the top section of the speaker act like a point source if everything was kept nice and tight?
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post #208 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'll lay out the 15" midrange today and see how high that makes the waveguide. If it's too high, we're probably going to head into uncharted territory with the dual 8's.

AudioJosh, if the dual 8's were crossed around 700hz or so, wouldn't the top section of the speaker act like a point source if everything was kept nice and tight?

I'm out of my range on this one. Someone else who has done these designs should answer.

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post #209 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 08:54 AM
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15" mid with 21" below and 15" seos works fine for c.d. height = 3.80 feet.



by the way, 'that guy' is ~6 feet tall.


something strikes me as 'wrong' with this one, if you know what i mean. ;-)

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post #210 of 1151 Old 05-20-2014, 09:01 AM
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"If you have an 18" or 21" woofer, then what would be the point in a 15" mid?"

max spl marty! a high sensitivity 15" can provide about 100 db 1w1m.

ideally, you'd want to use a bigger amp unless you can fine a 2 ohm woofer. at 4 ohms the 3000 outputs about 600 watts or so.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html

considering the spectral content of music frequently places 10db more spl demand on the bass than the midrange, even a 21" with 600 watts may be the limiting factor in the build.

that said, the limit is pretty high! :-)

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