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post #31 of 50 Old 06-01-2014, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Looks great, almost like mine except that I didn't port them. Went sealed so i dont go too deep below 20hz and torture the neighbors too bad. Sealed sounds very good too btw if you ever choose to close the ports for whatever reason.

Thanks in as much as I'm trying to bring this to a conclusion, I'm still really struggling to pick. 4 sealed seems much more straight forward but just at the expense of the incrementally higher cost.

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post #32 of 50 Old 06-02-2014, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post


I only have a couple options for sub placement - the only two possible locations inside the room are where I labeled SUB 1 and SUB 2. Both locations are constrained because of some windows that I can't block. The sub boxes would need to be 23" H x 25" W x 32" L at most not to block the windows and fit next to the fireplace, but that would give me something in the range of 6-8cu ft each. However, I'm a little concerned about doing the in-rooms because my woodworking skills are not very refined, and don't want to end up with something that looks terrible or end up working on this for a year. 

 

 

We have the same 24" x 24" x 32" size constraints and my theater is also part of a larger 10,000 cu ft great room. Like you, It's a family room, not a darkened dedicated theater, so there are limited placement positions for big black boxy subwoofers that clash with both my wife and the furniture.  Although we listen to music all the time, it's more often for entertaining or during other activities and less often for sit down critical listening. We're passionate about movies, use our system mainly to watch a lot of films and invite friends over for movie nights. As a result I've been mildly obsessed with finding the "perfect" subwoofers to replace the rear subs in my existing system. Like you, I started AVS migrating through the vigorous debates in the manufacturer threads, only to drop through the "Twilight Zone" rabbit hole into the "Wild Wild West" of the DIY forums. I have also been struggling to pick between ported/sealed and ID versus DIY.

 

Room layout and dimensions

 

After reading a lot of info on the AVS threads (especially jbrown's experience moving from sealed to ported subs) I determined that within my size room and my limited budget range, that ported was the only way to go to pressurize the room with any semblance of decent SPL and extension. 

 

When the driver in a sub moves outward, it sends a pressure wave into the room. In a ported sub, when it moves inward, it sends another pressure wave into the room through the port. But in a sealed sub, that inward wave is constrained within the box. That's why ported subs are more efficient at putting out more overall SPL than sealed subs. However, a ported sub drops off dramatically below the tuning frequency, whereas a sealed sub can be EQ'ed to remain flat for deeper extension. In order to get the SPL volume of a ported sub with the flat frequency response and extension of a sealed sub, you have to keep adding sealed subs until you match the same volume. If your goal is to create realistic sound levels for a cinematic experience, it will take a sufficient number of sealed subs to pressurize your room to reference levels. The larger the room, the more sealed subs it takes. That's why you see pictures on AVS with members having a multiple sealed subs stacked around the room (and they're always looking to add more - usually in a much smaller space).

 

notnyt changed from sealed to ported to increase SPL

 

 

 

He used same 18" drivers - just remounted them in vented enclosures

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1516234/8x-18-lms-5400-ultras-sealed-to-27-cube-15hz-ported-build/0_100

 

In a normally sized room (1,500-2,000) cu ft, if I listened to mostly music instead of movies, I'd go sealed with whichever subs that best integrated with my main speakers. In a much larger room (5,000 - 10,000 cu ft), if I had the funds and room placement flexibility to build 8-12 or more large 15"-18" sealed subs and power them appropriately, I'd go the sealed route for home theater. But I don't, so the question becomes how to maximize value using a few ported subs at the few wife acceptable room locations in a size that fits those spots.  (she also prefers wood veneer over painted black). The pre-manufactured ported sub that I've seen most favored for movies by AVS members at the sub shootout get togethers is the JTR Captivator. But at $2,600 powered and $1,700 unpowered plus about $350 shipping you're looking at $3,500 to $5,500 for two black subs minus the multi sub discount.  The DIY design I've most seen favored by AVS members for movies are variations on the LTD02 designed 24" tall Marty Cube and 40" tall Mini Marty.

 

I'd really love a pair of Captivators, and I've been saving up for them for some time. However I'm currently thinking about having chalugadp build me two Marty cabinets at 24" x 24" x 32" veneered in Teak for 18" drivers. My finish carpentry skills are also not very refined, I don't know how to veneer, and his prices are very reasonable. He has some beautiful veneered projects made for other AVS members on his thread. He built a 30" tall version for lemans24 who told me that his work was impeccable. Here are some pictures of chalugadp's veneer and finish quality on other subs he built, plus pictures or leman24's unfinished Marty sub with modifications for 32 inches and Teak veneer.

 

 

 

Sure beats basic black paint!

 

 

 

Below is a WinISD comparison to the Marty Cube and Mini Marty using the IST UXL-18 driver (with three diferent tuning options for the 32" sub).  I know you're considering the Dayton UL-15 drivers for around $400 and that the UXL-18's would add another $660.  In an audio system there are fewer places within the signal chain between source and sound where a little more money yields a lot more performance gain than with upgrades in speakers. The driver is the heart of your transducer.  I've read on AVS that the general consensus is the UL-15 is a good value while the UXL-18 is a giant killer performing at levels comparable to the mighty LMS-5400's at $1,850/pair. For perspective go to database.com and look at the LMS 5400 and UXL-18 compared to all the other subs on the list. While the UL-15 looks like a good value, the UXL-18 is absolutely a steal compared to all the other super woofers way above it's price range. After everything else you've spent on great video and good audio equipment, plus furnishing a multipurpose entertainment room, why skimp on the drivers for your sub which have such and critical effect on the room's overall performance for movies. Intelligible dialog on your center is critical, soundtrack music and effects paint the picture, but powerful bass is what draws you into the movie and create emotional impact.

 

My biggest fear in picking subs for my own system was that from now on, whenever I watch a movie, I'd be wondering about how much better my system could have sounded is I'd just decided to spend a little more up front. Reading lots of conflicting advise on AVS only made it worse until I realized that different rooms need different subs depending on budget and music/movie preferences. What's the perfect sub solution for one doesn't work for someone else, and neither person is wrong or gives bad advise. I just have to figure out what applied to my needs and situation. We're in the same boat, I hope my process in picking what works for me helps resolve your struggle and allay your fear of making the wrong decision.

 

 

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post #33 of 50 Old 06-02-2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post

I spent some time last night comparing my options with WinISD, and it looked like dual 8cuft ported box with the drivers I showed above would produce SPL within 2dB of each other peaking at around 116dB. The UM18 was louder than the UM15, which was in turn louder than the SI 18HT, and it left me a little confused about some of the comments I've read on the forums that the UMs need a much bigger box compared to the SI HTs. I added in 4 sealed UM15s for comparison, and the output curve there looked very different; sub 20Hz SPL was within the same range of the ported subs but the peak SPL went up to around 128dB at 100 Hz. I interpret that to mean that the ported subs are probably limited by the box characteristics and power handling of each driver and that I shouldn't expect much more than a 1-2dB difference between any of these drivers. Based on this information, coupled with availability, price, etc, I would say that I'm leaning back to my previous plan of dual UM15s in ported boxes and an iNuke3000DSP, unless you guys say I'm missing something significant.

 

Regarding your concerns about being confused about AVS comments that different drivers performance is affected by box size, power handling and port tuning. I was also confused and spent a lot of time studying info across the DIY section. Here's what I found and why I made my decision to wait for the UXL-18's when they become available:

 

As the driver in a sub moves back and forth, it has to change direction rapidly working against the force vector that wants to keep it moving in the same direction. Several factors in the sub design make this easier to accomplish. A more powerful motor assembly (magnet strength, voice coil windings/size/length, stiffness of the surround/spiders) provides greater control over driver motion. However larger motors need more power to operate and generate more heat (resistance of the electricity moving through the voice coil against the inductance created by the surrounding magnet). They need to be designed to handle more wattage and dissipate more heat when pushed on large extended transients in special effects movies.

 

The LMS - 5400   

 

Larger drivers cones push more air for greater SPL, but they tend to flex so they're built thicker with more weight and inertia for the motor to overcome when turning around.  Smaller driver cones flex less and are lighter for the motor to reverse, but they also generate less SPL (That's why some advocate using two 15" instead of one 18" to get both volume and tighter response). A lighter driver with a weaker motor can perform admirably at a very reasonable price point, but the larger more powerful driver will provide greater extension at low frequencies and less distortion at higher sustained higher volumes like watching action movies. 

 

The UXL-18

 

 

In a sealed sub, the driver is also assisted to reverse direction by the enclosure's interior pressure when it moves in and interior vacuum when it moves out. In a ported sub the driver receives much less support and relies more on motor strength to keep it in control. In a vented sub the longer you make the ports the lower the frequency that emerges from the opening. However more acoustical energy is used to drive air down the longer port (ever tried to breath through hose?) so the sub puts out less volume at all the frequencies above the port. Selecting the length of the port is called the "port tuning" and determines where tradeoff point is between volume and extension (see the last two charts I posted above to see how fractions of an inch between tuning lengths can effect SPL response at different frequencies). 

 

Ported vs. sealed on the AVS Sump Sub

 

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1533762/diy-build-the-sumpsub-ported-passive-subwoofer/0_100

 

In addition to port length, it's shape and size matters. Round ports behave differently than square vent style ports, with a flare at either end affecting the "virtual length" and performance. A port that's too small (diameter, height/width) will increase the speed of air traveling through it and generate a resonance at frequencies (ever blow across the opening of a Coke bottle?) that can be audible and sound like wheezing (often called "port chuffing).  Many DIY people insist on a port size that keeps air velocity below 32 feet/second, however the Marty cube variants that are so popular on AVS were designed by LTD02 (who's considered the Yoda of AVS Jedi Masters in DIY subs) and they have port velocities between 95 -108 f/s. I tried making the port size larger to reduce air velocity but WinISD call for dramatically different port lengths at the same tuning point and it also affected overall SPL.

 

 

Finally, since lower frequencies have longer wavelengths, it takes greater voice coil extension to generate deeper bass at higher volumes. A driver with a longer X-max (maximum excursion) will perform better all things being equal.  However all things aren't equal since the longer travel requires greater control from all the other motor and driver parameters. The HSU VTF-15 is a great sub using a large 15" driver that's only driven by 350 watts but it's not in the same league as the Rythmik FV15HP at 600 watts or the Seaton Submursive HP at 2,400 watts. At higher volumes on deeper base, the X-max also determines where the voice coil will bottom out and you can damage your driver. You can mitigate this with a High Pass filter in your preamp (it only lets the frequency "pass" through ABOVE the filter limit you set), but now you're filtering out all that deep bass you sweated designing into the system.

 

 

 

If it sounds complex and you feel confused, you're not crazy.  I kept thinking that if I read enough and played around with WinISD to unlock the secrets of sub design, I would start feeling more comfortable going DIY and designing my own subs. Many AVS members I've talked to have built multiple designs, learning through trial and error what worked best for their system. I don't have the time, and just want to get the right subs for a good value and move on to improving other parts of my system like the projector (or D-Box !!!)  So if I go DIY, I've narrowed down my choices to proven designs that have been replicated with great success multiple times in various systems in wildly divergent rooms. The combination most recommended by Dentists (I mean other AVS members) is getting the largest Marty variant you can fit in your space with the UXL-18 driver. I don't mind waiting another couple weeks for the UXL-18 or spending a little more for it than the group buy price after all the months I've spent digging through a never-ending mountain of AVS post. My time's valuable too and after all of it that I've invested getting to this point I want the best driver/enclosure possible.

 

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post #34 of 50 Old 06-03-2014, 12:24 AM
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8 15" ultimax (sealed in 4 boxes) in a sealed 5000cuft room sound awesome. Not competition awesome, but defintely -12db to 0db reference sounds fantastic. Being able to hit 120db transients is great.

Any more than that would simply be pointless in my room with my listening habits.

You don't need to go crazy overboard if your listening habits don't demand it...

I got my whole thing done for about $2k for parts, maybe $100 for some new tools, and $4k for my 4 channel LG amp. There is zero reason to ever worry about a bigger sub or any other equipment in this room again.

The LG amp with built in dolby Lake processing and PEQ configurable by laptop is sooooo cool.

I sold a pile of other commercial subs which were not as good and not as well powered for about $10000... So I actually saved money AND it sounds much better!
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post #35 of 50 Old 06-03-2014, 11:58 AM
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awesome.

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post #36 of 50 Old 06-03-2014, 12:26 PM
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Fantastic posting Peter, should be required reading for folks researching DIY subs these days.
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post #37 of 50 Old 06-05-2014, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks for all of the suggestions and alternatives, especially Peter for the very well written and detailed posts. I spent a bit more time researching old threads, and I plan to downselect and go ahead with dual UXL-18s if I can source them, an iNuke 6000DSP and a couple ~9-10cuft ported boxes. The final dimensions have not been decided but it should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 24"x24"x36" (min of 24"x24"x32" and max of 24"x24"x42"). This seems to be a very popular option in the forum and seems to be well proven.

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post #38 of 50 Old 07-16-2014, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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After discussing with my wife, I was strongly urged to consider doing something with my old HTIB enclosure and avoiding a big fabrication project. So I evaluated throwing a new driver into my existing enclosure, but it was clear that it would be a waste of time and money. I went ahead and picked up a PB2000 to evaluate, and it was too small for the room as many of you suggested. Audyssey required me to max out the sub plate amp and still have the AVR set at +6, and I got quite a bit of clipping, distortion and relatively poor in room frequency response.



In the mean time, I went ahead and built a pair of overnight sensation MTMs to replace my two rear channel speakers. It was very easy to do and a lot of fun to assemble. I didn't need to do much work to finish the enclosures because they are mostly hidden from view, and I used some left over interior paint from the walls in that room for the enclosures. I still need to build some small shelves to raise the speakers off of the cabinets 1-2" and plan to do that over the next couple weeks.





So at this point, I have just received an iNuke 6000DSP yesterday and should receive the two UXL-18s in the next couple weeks. I need to start figuring out the dimensions of the enclosure, pick the tuning frequency, and location of the port. I am somewhat second guessing the amp and wondering if I should go with a Sanway 7000, Crest 5.0 DSP, or something similar. The LG IPD2400 looked very interesting as well, although it doesn't seem to be popular in here and looked a little undersized for the UXLs. The amp will ideally be visible out in the room, so the aesthetics and noise level are a consideration. I can park it off in a closet but that would require me to run 25-50' of wiring each way through the attach. Any suggestions for the amp are appreciated.

I will start the enclosure design in the next week or two and hopefully can get these built within the next 6-8 weeks.

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post #39 of 50 Old 07-16-2014, 09:55 AM
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I heard a pair of 6000DSP's and a set of 14hz ported UXL's at jbrowns the other week in ~2kcuft room, and it seemed 100% fine to AT LEAST 1/3 power, off of a small 15amp breaker no less.
It'll produce a real 2000watts or maybe more, so I wouldn't panic massively until you hear it...

That said quad UXL's in a 5kcuft room would be more-ideal than just 2.


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post #40 of 50 Old 08-16-2014, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I have received my iNuke and one of the two drivers, and I have started assembling the first cabinet. Outer dimensions are 24"x24"x32", and I want to tune it to 17Hz or so. I cut the port rails to 3" height and plan to run the port along the bottom and up the back (i.e., roughly 52" long), but I think the 3" height might have been an error. I obviously don't want chuffing issues. Should the port rails actually have been cut to 2", 2.25" or 2.5"?
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post #41 of 50 Old 08-16-2014, 05:21 PM
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That box is just a little small for that tuning in my estimation because the port will need to be a little too small which will result in some chuffing.


Depending on content you may be more or less sensitive to that though and it may be masked by other sounds.


What you do depends on what tradeoff you want to make.
my suggestion would be to use a 2.5" port that is about 44" long as measured by the red line.
the effective port length will be slightly longer than that, but should still flow well and keep the first port resonance up around 150hz or so.
this will provide about an 18-19hz tune.


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post #42 of 50 Old 08-16-2014, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks, the port is now 2.5". I used the panels I had already cut and have an effective port length of around 48".
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post #43 of 50 Old 08-16-2014, 07:53 PM
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just a heads up, as ports get longer the first port resonance moves lower in frequency. ideally, keeping it up around 2x the point where the sub is crossed to mains is the target, which would usually be 2x80hz or 160hz. 48" is kind of pushing it, but should still be ok.


this is one of the advantages of the large enclosure. it allows for a low tuning, without a very long port. as a result, the first port resonance is way up high and out of the potential passband.

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post #44 of 50 Old 08-26-2014, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I assembled the first box and did a preliminary test last night, and will will finish it next weekend and start working on the second box. I used the denim insulation to line the box and caulked the interior. I decided not to veneer and will paint it with Duratex. The port is 2.5" as discussed above.









My 3 year old actually climbed onto the driver last Thursday, and thankfully it seems to have only separated the dust cap which I reglued yesterday. I ran sine waves at 20Hz through it and don't hear any rubbing, and hopefully my glue job is continuous and holds up.

I tested it last night and played around with EQ settings. I don't have a driver gasket installed yet and assume it is leaking around the edge of the driver, and I couldn't get rid of the dip at around 17Hz. That is presumably either because the enclosure is leaking or because I didn't set the shelf filter properly below 20Hz (?) - any tips are appreciated. I will try to measure the port resonance tonight.



I had to crank up the iNuke sensitivity knob to max and crank the gain up to max to get Audyssey to set the AVR signal to +1, with the amp running in mono mode. The response already looks much better than the PB-2000 that I tested, which is very reassuring because it was really struggling. It will be nice to see/hear the performance after adding the second driver.

I seem to have some problems with the mic calibration due to periodic USB communication problems, which shows up in the second REW measurement below because I don't think the sub was really putting out 130dB.





Thanks again for all of the help and input - this has really been a fun project.
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7.2 DIY 1099s (LCR), Yamaha NS-IC600WH (SL, SR), DIY OS-MTM (BL, BR)
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Calibration CALMAN5, REW, UMIK-1
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post #45 of 50 Old 08-26-2014, 12:30 PM
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The response looks good, and should get better with two.

I wouldn't trust the db values in REW, that looks 30db hotter than it actually is. If you maxed the excursion and amp right out you might squeak out 122db, which I doubt you are doing.
You are probably running 100db sweeps.
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post #46 of 50 Old 09-04-2014, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I finished assembling the second sub last weekend and have wired it temporarily to start testing it, and next weekend I hope to sand and fill. I'm still on the fence about paint or veneer.



I am a bit unclear about the various ways to work around the 20Hz limit in the iNuke and how judge whether or not the excursion is properly protected. Port resonance seems to be right around 19.5Hz based on the cone displacement measurements, and I understand that I need to be very careful about over excursion below ~16Hz.

In my previous posts with the REW measurement, I used a 6dB 20Hz BUT HP filter along with -3dB 20Hz HS filter after reading other threads in the forum. It seems to have produced a pretty flat response. But I was a little concerned that the HS filter setup for the larger enclosures tuned for 17Hz and that I might risk overdriving the cone.

So last night I read more and see that the HP filters for iNuke seem to be recommended anywhere from 6dB/oct to 18dB/oct, with either a HS filter or PEQ. I tested a 12dB BUT HP + 2dB PEQ at 20Hz, and it seems to show a safe margin based on the model in WINISD but produces a big dropoff in the REW measurements.







And here are the corresponding iNuke settings:









Audyssey recommends crossing all of the in-ceiling speakers at 200-250Hz, which is why I tried to EQ up to 200Hz. Hopefully with some work I will either find out that the recommendation is an artifact of the measurement or could be addressed in part with some new SEOS mains...

So back to my question - I like the look of the flat response with my original settings in the previous EQ and need to understand how to gauge the risk of overexcursion and which filters to attenuate and boost below 20Hz. Short of building a fixture and measuring excursion with a dial gauge, how do I pick the filters to protect the cone?
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TV 2013 Samsung 75" UN75F6300
AVR 2013 Denon X2000 w/ Audyssey XT
7.2 DIY 1099s (LCR), Yamaha NS-IC600WH (SL, SR), DIY OS-MTM (BL, BR)
Subs Two 19Hz DIY Ported UXL-18s + FP14k + MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced
Calibration CALMAN5, REW, UMIK-1
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post #47 of 50 Old 10-08-2014, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
I finished assembling the second sub last weekend and have wired it temporarily to start testing it, and next weekend I hope to sand and fill. I'm still on the fence about paint or veneer.




I really like that TV console. Where did you get it?

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
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post #48 of 50 Old 10-08-2014, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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The console came from Scandinavian Designs nearly 10 years ago. It originally had a shelf in the middle that I had to remove to fit the AVR, as well as drawer pulls on the drawers that my wife removed because of our kids.

I ended up painting the subs with Duratex because I started getting antsy to wrap up the project. I never took a final picture but will try to do it on the weekend. I'm pretty happy with the way they turned out and am ready to build some new mains.

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TV 2013 Samsung 75" UN75F6300
AVR 2013 Denon X2000 w/ Audyssey XT
7.2 DIY 1099s (LCR), Yamaha NS-IC600WH (SL, SR), DIY OS-MTM (BL, BR)
Subs Two 19Hz DIY Ported UXL-18s + FP14k + MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced
Calibration CALMAN5, REW, UMIK-1
FriscoDTM is online now  
post #49 of 50 Old 05-26-2015, 10:52 AM
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"Dual Kuro Screen"
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post #50 of 50 Old 05-26-2015, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Peter thanks for the suggestion but I don't think a screen is in the cards for this location. But we have been debating an addition on the house, and if that moves ahead I plan to do a screen in the new area. Since this thread started I have built the two ported UXLs, three 1099s, along with the MTMs in the back, and despite plenty of mistakes/learnings and WAF issues along the way, it has been a great experience and quite a bit of fun. I never started a thread about my 1099s and sprinkled a couple photos in the main 1099 thread, but perhaps this would be a good place to go back through my records and document some of the details.

TV 2013 Samsung 75" UN75F6300
AVR 2013 Denon X2000 w/ Audyssey XT
7.2 DIY 1099s (LCR), Yamaha NS-IC600WH (SL, SR), DIY OS-MTM (BL, BR)
Subs Two 19Hz DIY Ported UXL-18s + FP14k + MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced
Calibration CALMAN5, REW, UMIK-1
FriscoDTM is online now  
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