Buy or Build for 5000 cu ft family room - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 05-17-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I am hoping someone can provide some guidance for my family room. The room is roughly 5k cuft, with the MLP right in the center of the room. My old Onkyo sub is ported wth a 10" driver and 200W amp, and I want to upgrade it because it is very underwhelming. I installed the in ceiling speakers before I found this forum, and I am trying to decide about upgrading my sub and possibly adding new front L/R speakers. For the sub, I have been comparing the SVS PB2000 with various ported subs and sonosubs in this forum, but for my <$1k budget and WAF it's not totally clear to me if I'd benefit much from a DIY. For example, a 12" Ultimax 4 cu ft DIY flatpack with an INuke or Bash amp looks like it would cost roughly $500-600 in materials, and it's not clear that there's a huge performance or cost advantage over buying a PB2000 with its warranty and upgrade options. I've also looked into doing either DIY dual 4cuft ported sonosubs with 12" Ultimax drivers or a single 6 cuff ported sonsosub with a 15" Ultimax, and in those cases I can start to see a cost advantage but am struggling to understand how much of a performance benefit I'd have. I own a variety of tools but don't own a router so that cost needs to be factored in, and WAF is a major issue. Any suggestions are appreciated.

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post #2 of 46 Old 05-17-2014, 01:39 PM
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My room is 5000cu ft and you need a LOT of subwoofer to do it really great.

I would go for at least 4 of the ultimax 15" kits which comes with the box. See of you can find a used high power 2 or 4 channel amp.

Those drivers need about 800watt rms, so a pair of crown xls 2500 might not be bad for a sealed box.
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post #3 of 46 Old 05-17-2014, 01:46 PM
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4 UM-15's and two nu3kDSP's would be great; UM-18's would be better though...

Generally DIY is twice as good as OEM, sometimes MUCH more.


Here is 4 UM-15's in action; and that's only 1/10th output.
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post #4 of 46 Old 05-17-2014, 04:11 PM
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I havent found a non-dIY sub of better value yet...

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post #5 of 46 Old 05-17-2014, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice. If I had a dedicated room I might be able to go big, but my hands are a bit tied given that this is the family room. I haven't really considered sealed boxes because of the frequency limitations, and unless I have misunderstood and could get away with dual sealed 18", I don't see how I could fit ported 18"s in the room. The practical limit is probably dual 15" ported subs because of the box size, because I only have two open spaces in each corner adjacent to the tv. I would like to add something like the Tempest or Maximus as fronts as phase two of this upgrade, and I would probably need to stack them on top of the subs because of these space constraints. But I could potentially add an 18" in the attic as a phase three to augment the 15"s. I hadn't really given that option much thought but the only constraint up there is getting it up there.

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post #6 of 46 Old 05-17-2014, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

I havent found a non-dIY sub of better value yet...

There's a very good reason why the biggest bad A$$ bass systems on AVS forums are all DIY wink.gif
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post #7 of 46 Old 05-18-2014, 06:42 AM
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Check out my in-wall build and specific box shape. You might have to modify your walls or park a set of speakers in the attic down-firing...

Every room has its challenges, that's part of the fun for me personally!

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post #8 of 46 Old 05-19-2014, 05:07 AM
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You could go with two Dayton HO18's for $500 and then power them with an iNuke3000 for under $250. That would leave money left over for wood, glue, router, binding post, and some wire. You could do the MartyCubes or MiniMarty, or, if you would post your room layout, and where you plan to place the subs, perhaps one of us could help come up with a design that would work for your space! You could always do ported end table or coffee table subs with the HO18! We could do it narrower adding to the top dimension, or vice versa!
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post #9 of 46 Old 05-19-2014, 07:42 AM
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What I'm banking on is putting speaker cloth over the front of whatever L/C/R's I end up building.
With shelving between the cabinets I think a major WAF win could be had.
You'll just have to tell her, 'trust me'!
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post #10 of 46 Old 05-26-2014, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help and suggestions; all input is appreciated. Below is the rough layout of the room. The center, fronts, and surrounds are all in-ceilings and the rears are bookshelf speakers hidden above my upper kitchen cabinets.



I only have a couple options for sub placement - the only two possible locations inside the room are where I labeled SUB 1 and SUB 2. Both locations are constrained because of some windows that I can't block. The sub boxes would need to be 23" H x 25" W x 32" L at most not to block the windows and fit next to the fireplace, but that would give me something in the range of 6-8cu ft each. However, I'm a little concerned about doing the in-rooms because my woodworking skills are not very refined, and don't want to end up with something that looks terrible or end up working on this for a year. I put together an estimated bill of materials for two ported subs based on the UM15 and came up with total of approximately $1100 using an iNuke 3000, which doesn't include the cost of router or any other tools.

As an alternative, I could do a IB sub in the attic right above the MLP on the sofa, but if I setup the simulation correctly it looks like I'd need four UM15s to get the same output around 15-30Hz as the two in room ported subs. That would presumably simplify the cost/complexity of the boxes but require that I buy a iNuke 6000 and four UM15's at a rough estimated price of $1200. As an alternative not shown in the drawing above, I suppose that I could also do two IB boxes above the couch adjacent to the two surround speakers. I don't live in the country and do have neighbors, and the main issue that I understand reading about an IB setup is noise outside of the house because of the placement in our attic.

Below is my attempt to compare two different ported subs (6-8cuft per sub) and IB subs (2 and 4 UM15s):



For comparison, I am still considering buying 1-2 PB2000's or a XV15se, because I'm not saving a huge amount of cash going DIY and would have something turnkey within a week or two.

Any additional suggestions or considerations?

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post #11 of 46 Old 05-26-2014, 04:28 PM
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You could do two Marty sub at 24 by 24 by 30 tuned to 17hz. They would crush the svs sub. If you use Dayton RSS 18 ho with inuke 6000dsp the martys will be equal or better then svs ultra.

900 for sub's and amp. 200 for wood and cables. I'd say that's a lot better then buying.
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post #12 of 46 Old 05-28-2014, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I went ahead and ordered two UM15s and a iNuke3000 smile.gif

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post #13 of 46 Old 05-29-2014, 10:18 AM
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I think you'll love the combination. I just built a ported box to hold my 2 UM15's last week. Also pushing them with the iNuke 3000.


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post #14 of 46 Old 05-29-2014, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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It looks like I will build two 24x24x30 modified Marty boxes with the port along the 30" side and do rosewood veneer. Having read through the forum threads more and searching old threads, I'm questioning if I should switch to the 6000DSP, an IPR2 with DSP or even something else (suggestions?). If I understand the threads correctly, the 3000 is right at its power limit for the two UM15s and has drops off below 20Hz. Is that going to be an issue that I'd see in everyday use or only if it's cranked up full blast? Also, I am tentatively planning to try to park the amp in a closet and will need 25ft or so of wire on both the input and output, and if I understood the wire resistance loss correctly, 25ft of 12AWG wire won't produce significant loss - correct?

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post #15 of 46 Old 05-30-2014, 05:14 PM
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html

the inuke 3000 appears to be down -1db by 10hz.

not sure if there is somebody who is uninformed keeps saying "inukes rolloff under 20hz" but for some reason that rumor keeps popping up.
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post #16 of 46 Old 05-30-2014, 05:17 PM
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frequency response into 4 ohm load. inuke 3000:


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post #17 of 46 Old 05-30-2014, 06:33 PM
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+1 LT

I know rolloff is a factor if you want to squeeze out that last bit of performance, but reading through post after post through numerous threads, it seems like it will never go away.



~Caveat to some of the newer members who may want to dive in and gain knowledge:



If you read a post by a member claiming 1 piece of gear rolls off @ 20Hz and would never use it, but then claims they would use Gear A (10Hz rolloff) and Gear B (10Hz rolloff), guess where that puts them rolleyes.gif


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post #18 of 46 Old 05-30-2014, 06:39 PM
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With your budget plan on some cheap aura bass shakers and amp to help out
Your subs, even ported will just be o.k.

You will need more power and woof age soon.

Bass shakers well done help alot.
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post #19 of 46 Old 05-30-2014, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cellarnoise View Post

With your budget plan on some cheap aura bass shakers and amp to help out
Your subs, even ported will just be o.k.

You will need more power and woof age soon.

Bass shakers well done help alot.

Have you ever heard these subs? Powered with an Inuke with DSP ? If so, compared to what? What, exactly, do you base that on?

Sounds like sheer speculation based on pure PFA experience, but I'd love to be proven wrong. I think the OP will very happy with the proposed combination, and only his opinion really matters. It's his $, in his room, based subjectively on what he's heard before. For the budget stated, I challenge you to offer a better option. If you cant, then what exactly, besides negativity, are you contributing to this conversation that helps the OP?

What a long, strange trip its been....
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post #20 of 46 Old 05-30-2014, 07:16 PM
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I've heard em, I've built em. They will sound just fine.
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post #21 of 46 Old 05-31-2014, 06:23 PM
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if woodworking skills aren't so hot, one trick is to keep the exposed 'woodwork' to a minimum.

i believe there are a quad set of 18's behind the speaker cloth in this one.



could even pick out a nice slab of stone instead of wood for the top.
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post #22 of 46 Old 05-31-2014, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I actually decided to cancel the driver/amp order before it shipped so I could read through more old threads and make sure I'm making reasonably informed choices on the components. I've decided to build for sure and will do a pair of custom Marty variants to fit the dimensional constraints in my room (somewhere between 24x24x24 and 24x24x42, either front firing or down firing). I had forgotten that one of the guys that I work with actually has a side business making speakers, and he offered to do any finishing work. So it's really down to the box dimensions and component selection. Based on what I've seen, the UXL-18, SI HT-18, UM15-22 and UM18-22 all seem to be very popular in the forum, but the UXL-18 is out based on price because I'd like to try to keep this closer to $1k. If I do the SI HT-18 D4, it looks like it is well proven in the Marty boxes and could save a little money and go with a smaller box. But somehow they look cheap to me and don't seem to model as well, and I have been gravitating to the Ultimaxes. But both the UM15 and UM18 seem to need bigger boxes, and I understand that the UM18 and SI18 D4 are both not due out for 4-6 weeks (or more). But it's not clear to me how small I would be able to get away with for the Ultimaxes, and I'm not familiar enough with WinISD or experienced deigning speakers that I'd trust anything that I model. So what would you guys recommend?

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post #23 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 06:53 AM
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Ultimax really do work great, i cant compllain about price

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post #24 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I spent some time last night comparing my options with WinISD, and it looked like dual 8cuft ported box with the drivers I showed above would produce SPL within 2dB of each other peaking at around 116dB. The UM18 was louder than the UM15, which was in turn louder than the SI 18HT, and it left me a little confused about some of the comments I've read on the forums that the UMs need a much bigger box compared to the SI HTs. I added in 4 sealed UM15s for comparison, and the output curve there looked very different; sub 20Hz SPL was within the same range of the ported subs but the peak SPL went up to around 128dB at 100 Hz. I interpret that to mean that the ported subs are probably limited by the box characteristics and power handling of each driver and that I shouldn't expect much more than a 1-2dB difference between any of these drivers. Based on this information, coupled with availability, price, etc, I would say that I'm leaning back to my previous plan of dual UM15s in ported boxes and an iNuke3000DSP, unless you guys say I'm missing something significant.

On a different note, I picked up a UMIK and ran REW for the first time. I had noticed some rattling recently in my existing 10" sub and thought that I might have blown the speaker or was hitting the excursion limit, and when REW ran the test the sub made some terrible noises. I picked it, turned it over and found out that my 3 year old had been storing the following items inside the sub for safe keeping, along with a handful of cheerios and pretzels:

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post #25 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 09:18 AM
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LOL. My kids used to do the same and would put stuff in the air vents too.

I haven't got a mic yet so I can't comment on measurements, but I can say I like the sound of 2 UM15's in a 12cuft ported box tuned to 18hz. I followed Dayton's recommendations except I changed the ports to slotted like the Martysubs. It will sit against front wall under the screen once it's finished like the pic LTD posted.

20140526_125049.jpg
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post #26 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 04:46 PM
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SI HT-18 D4 wired for 2 ohms ea and an inuke 3000dsp in the largest marty variant that you can fit offers a good, and proven, system.
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post #27 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 04:49 PM
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that's pretty cool stoudtlr.

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post #28 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

SI HT-18 D4 wired for 2 ohms ea and an inuke 3000dsp in the largest marty variant that you can fit offers a good, and proven, system.

thank you for the input; in the old threads I looked through I only saw one with a down firing driver - is sag an issue and are there any other downsides to the driver facing the floor?

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post #29 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 07:38 PM
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Looks great, almost like mine except that I didn't port them. Went sealed so i dont go too deep below 20hz and torture the neighbors too bad. Sealed sounds very good too btw if you ever choose to close the ports for whatever reason.

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post #30 of 46 Old 06-01-2014, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

My room is 5000cu ft and you need a LOT of subwoofer to do it really great.

I would go for at least 4 of the ultimax 15" kits which comes with the box. See of you can find a used high power 2 or 4 channel amp.

Those drivers need about 800watt rms, so a pair of crown xls 2500 might not be bad for a sealed box.

wow I took a look at your HT thread and am really impressed with the woodwork and the number of parallams!

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