diy synergy build with bms 4594 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 05-23-2014, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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i have 2 bms 4594 for my left and right channel

a 30'x19'' cosynergy horn built from bills spreadsheet

6fe100 models well so ill try those 4 of these out first should end up with 98 db from 100-500 then use the cd above that assuming it will go so low.


im stuck atm waiting on a Wixey WR300 but once that arrives it should take a day to glue then i should be able to measure.


so pictures and measurements on monday or tus.
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post #2 of 30 Old 05-23-2014, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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resurved
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post #3 of 30 Old 05-24-2014, 06:07 AM
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Should be a fun project. What was the BMS exit dimensions?

I ask because I cant remember what it is called. Curious what the distance was from the coaxial to the exit opening if that makes any more sense?
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post #4 of 30 Old 05-24-2014, 08:12 PM
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Did you specifically buy the 4594s for a Synergy build? If so you're kinda missing the point.........unless you just had them laying around wink.gif I'd like to have something like that laying around!
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post #5 of 30 Old 05-25-2014, 07:21 AM
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Nate... Just curious why the 4594 is not a good idea. I thought it's being used in the SH96HO, isn't it?
I was actually thinking of getting the 4594's to do bwaslo's Synergy clones. I was planning doing a two way with a 6" or 8" drivers to cover 80-500 and the 4594 for 500hz and up like the OP is planning.
Is this a bad idea?
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post #6 of 30 Old 05-25-2014, 10:40 AM
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Well it's certainly not a bad idea, and I'm sure it would probably sound pretty good. You can do better with less $$$ though. The SH-50 and SH-60 to me are the ideal Synergy horns. Yeah, you can use the coax, but the alignment of the mid/treble is fixed and I'm not so sure how smooth the transition is between the 2. Also, with an SH-50 type you're looking at a 1" exit CD vs the 1.4" on the coax so the 1" is going to have better directivity a bit higher. I believe Danley himself has said the coax drivers aren't ideal.

The nice thing about a Synergy with a 1" cd and 3 or 4 4" or 5" closed back mids is you can get the mid ports designed and placed correctly for the thing to act as a point source, at any axis you care to measure. If you have the crossover chops (or FIR capabilities) you can get it to have flat phase at any angle as well without any wrap through the crossover. I'm not so sure the coax can do that. The closed back mids vs the coax can also get a bit lower, allowing you to use larger bass drivers on the horn if you wish to go that route.

Look at the cost of the coax vs say a DNA 360 and 4 suitable mid drivers (which admittedly are hard to find if you don't know what you're looking for or aren't following an established design). The coax are what, $700 a piece? The 1" cd and 4 mids might put you around $200 per channel depending on what you find for mids and I would argue would give better performance overall.

That said I don't want to knock the coax units as I've never heard them. There's several here using them to good effect, it's just not the approach I would take and I think a Synergy horn is better suited going the more traditional route.
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post #7 of 30 Old 05-25-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JESAL View Post

Nate... Just curious why the 4594 is not a good idea. I thought it's being used in the SH96HO, isn't it?
I was actually thinking of getting the 4594's to do bwaslo's Synergy clones. I was planning doing a two way with a 6" or 8" drivers to cover 80-500 and the 4594 for 500hz and up like the OP is planning.
Is this a bad idea?


its not not a good idea its just Really expensive
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post #8 of 30 Old 05-25-2014, 04:40 PM
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Nate, much appreciated.

I was interested in the 4594 for simplicity, as it goes low enough to be mated with four midbasses
So I could have 5 drivers per horn instead of 7 or 9.

Would there be any sound quality advantage to 4 low cost mids compared to 4594 in the 500-800hz range?
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post #9 of 30 Old 05-25-2014, 04:43 PM
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its not not a good idea its just Really expensive

Ok understood. Thanks Cookieattk, will be following this thread and monitoring your progress closely
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post #10 of 30 Old 05-26-2014, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JESAL View Post

Thanks for the detailed explanation Nate, much appreciated.

I was interested in the 4594 for simplicity, as it goes low enough to be mated with four midbasses
So I could have 5 drivers per horn instead of 7 or 9.

Would there be any sound quality advantage to 4 low cost mids compared to 4594 in the 500-800hz range?

Well that would be subjective ;-) The distortion of those "cheap mids" on the horn in that range will be extremely low. People look at the lower cost of the mid ranges on the Synergy and think "let's use nicer, more expensive parts" but that's not the approach to take IMO. It's the sum of the parts that make the whole.

If you want to do it go right ahead. There's nothing "wrong" with that approach and like I said I'm sure it will still sound quite good if you get the xo right....
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post #11 of 30 Old 05-26-2014, 09:21 PM
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Thanks that's what I thought. I'm still in the planning stage, without the drivers. So I can be persuaded especially if there are money to be saved smile.gif
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post #12 of 30 Old 05-27-2014, 06:20 AM
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Well, I guess one advantage to the coax is it's sort of the "easy" way. By that I mean you don't have to design the mid chambers, ports, and determine the port position. This is the difficult part of doing a Synergy. Get the port location in relation to the CD exit too far away and you've got a notch in the mid's passband due to the 1/4 wl reflection from the CD. Get them too close (physically that's quite difficult unless you're using little 2" mids) and they're not tapping into the horn at the optimal cross section to get the required hf out of the mids, and the ports will be more prone to screw with the CD response. You also need to design the mid chambers correctly to get the desired low pass for whatever bandwidth your aiming at. There's many factors that need to be juggled to do this correctly and you're most likely not going to hit it out of the park on your first go. I'm not saying this to try to dissuade you I'm just saying there's a lot to it to do it correctly. Modeling the mids in HornResp is huge to get you in the ballpark. I'd recommend reading through this whole thread at DIYA: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88237-suitable-midrange-cone-bandpass-mid-unity-horn.html which is full of information on how to do this. Danley also gives hints there. I'd also say to read the patent.

One thing you can do, if you want to be a little "sloppy" about the mid port construction is use a beefy 1" exit CD that's comfortable at a 1k xo. That way if you don't quite hit the mark with the mid design you can probably get it to work reasonably well just crossing the CD lower. If you're going for a linear phase xo it won't happen in this case as you need a good bit of overlap to make this work from what I understand. This is what I'm doing right now with my Paralines (another Danley design). I've got 4 closed back Celestion mids crossing at 1.1k lr24 to a BMS 4552nd. My mid chamber/port location doesn't give me enough HF out of the mids to get a linear phase crossover using min phase filters. I do all the xo/eq on my PC so it's easy to make the phase linear with FIR filters which is also a option.
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post #13 of 30 Old 05-27-2014, 07:07 AM
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For non-coax -- as Nate said, don't get hung up on the pedigree or high-endness of the midrange drivers, most of the factors that determine that don't come into play when the mid cones are used as horn drivers. Unless you're using this for an auditorium or stadium, you're not going to have a problem getting clean midrange SPLs (assuming you are using something that your setup models well for in HornResponse). I use 2" drivers on my CoSynergy setup, not much xmax at all I imagine, and headroom seems huge in my room.

Although I've been going for linear phase (just for the engineering challenge), I don't think that really matters much either. It's a whole lot easier if you don't need that, working with all-pass filters in a crossover isextremely difficult.

of course YMMV
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post #14 of 30 Old 05-27-2014, 07:37 PM
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Man I would sure love to understand all this lingo!!!
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post #15 of 30 Old 05-27-2014, 08:03 PM
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What lingo don't you understand? Maybe we can help. PM me if you like if it it's ot.
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post #16 of 30 Old 05-27-2014, 09:38 PM
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I have to read that diyaudio thread again. I read every page in a week, lots of excellent info. But I have to admit some discussions went over my head smile.gif
I've read the patent once, planning to read it again and let it sink in more.

Thanks Nate for the help and Bill for the excellent Synergy/Unity spreadsheet!
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post #17 of 30 Old 05-27-2014, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Hansen View Post

What lingo don't you understand? Maybe we can help. PM me if you like if it it's ot.

Certainly I will! smile.gif I want to be able to design a speaker someday and 100% understand what I am doing. I have decent understanding now and people who know me think I know a lot but when I read stuff like above I think I know nothing lol! It just seems there is a level past the general understanding. How phase works, how you were talking about the driver distance relation, linear phase and stuff like that. I will PM soon if you don't mind smile.gif
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post #18 of 30 Old 05-28-2014, 01:36 PM
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Quite exciting! I am subbed biggrin.gif We were discussing the coaxial design in the Danley/noesis thread as well where Ivan was contributing some of he and Tom's design parameters using the 2 way coax, vs. the separate mid/cd option, along with their reasoning why the 459x's they use in their designs have a lower top end number than one would expect from a CD that is capable of 24khz flat.

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post #19 of 30 Old 05-28-2014, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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i ended up with a new puppy since a small dog finally popped up on my local pounds website. so tomorrow ill cut and assemble and if all goes well il have measurements up tomorrow or the day after. i already cut the wood for 5x horns just need to do the angles. so pics tomorrow smile.gif
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post #20 of 30 Old 05-30-2014, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

For non-coax -- as Nate said, don't get hung up on the pedigree or high-endness of the midrange drivers, most of the factors that determine that don't come into play when the mid cones are used as horn drivers. Unless you're using this for an auditorium or stadium, you're not going to have a problem getting clean midrange SPLs (assuming you are using something that your setup models well for in HornResponse). I use 2" drivers on my CoSynergy setup, not much xmax at all I imagine, and headroom seems huge in my room.

Although I've been going for linear phase (just for the engineering challenge), I don't think that really matters much either. It's a whole lot easier if you don't need that, working with all-pass filters in a crossover isextremely difficult.

of course YMMV


the simplified spread sheets cuts in the pdf dont work at all panel 1 and 2 work but 3 and 4 don't work in any way i built a mini horn 7'' for fun using a older spread sheet and it worked fine so idk whats wrong with new one maybe its me but didn't work at all.
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post #21 of 30 Old 06-04-2014, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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puppy got sick been busy, puppys fine i got 5 days of nothing to do so u guys should see some interesting updates within the next few days.
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post #22 of 30 Old 06-04-2014, 03:22 PM
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Bring it on! N good luck! Puppy Power!
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post #23 of 30 Old 06-07-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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almost done smile.gif




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post #24 of 30 Old 06-08-2014, 06:56 AM
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Cool! You don't screw around. Are you adding the secondary flare?
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post #25 of 30 Old 06-08-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post

the simplified spread sheets cuts in the pdf dont work at all panel 1 and 2 work but 3 and 4 don't work in any way i built a mini horn 7'' for fun using a older spread sheet and it worked fine so idk whats wrong with new one maybe its me but didn't work at all.

Hi Cookie -- did you use the spreadsheet itself to calculate or the screenshots in the pdf? I've made several different horns from the spreadsheet, with very good fit. Can you give pix of what's wrong?

Bill
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post #26 of 30 Old 06-08-2014, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Cookie -- did you use the spreadsheet itself to calculate or the screenshots in the pdf? I've made several different horns from the spreadsheet, with very good fit. Can you give pix of what's wrong?

Bill


v3-3 is what i'm using this time and it works just fine but when i used v5-7 the inside cuts all lined up but the outside perimeter of the horn flair was all messed up looking it doesn't matter b/c the horn was trash anyways.


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Cool! You don't screw around. Are you adding the secondary flare?


going out to do the flare now
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post #27 of 30 Old 06-08-2014, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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well got it together barely but its way to big as a 60x60 so im scrapping it and going to build as 60x90 the plan is so have 1 td18h above and blow the horn from 30-80
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post #28 of 30 Old 06-08-2014, 04:37 PM
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well got it together barely but its way to big as a 60x60 so im scrapping it and going to build as 60x90 the plan is so have 1 td18h above and blow the horn from 30-80

Dang! Duel TD18's in an MTM arrangement? Or would it be more of a W/MTM/W arrangement? Not sure how to categorize the Synergy horn and it's drivers! LoL
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post #29 of 30 Old 06-08-2014, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Dang! Duel TD18's in an MTM arrangement? Or would it be more of a W/MTM/W arrangement? Not sure how to categorize the Synergy horn and it's drivers! LoL

its between the td-18h 2 or building othorns 1 for each channel othorn is 4db up at 30hz over 2x 18h. so i think im going to finish the 60x60 tomorrow and build a 60x90 and do both and see which i like better also if i use the 60x60 horn i can use 6x 6fe100 per channel so ill have like 97db 1w/1m from 30 up using six also match the levels not like it really matters. i got about 3 weeks before a big family get together that will need music so every thing should happen pretty quick.
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post #30 of 30 Old 06-08-2014, 07:05 PM
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That would be cool to see. SH with a mouth immediately below and above the SH mouth would be a cool picture. BUT will the SH be wider than 24"?

Aesthetically speaking maybe a no go but who cares about that. tongue.gif
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