speaker build. jtr 2228 performance - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 79 Old 07-10-2014, 10:12 PM
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which graph is for Tempest?
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post #62 of 79 Old 07-10-2014, 10:24 PM
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Sorry, just edited that. The Tempest is the green graph.

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post #63 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 12:34 AM
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This graph might be a little easier to look at and read, again the green line is the Tempest and the pink is my 228HT. The graph has 1/12th smoothing applied and zero EQ for either speaker.


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File Type: jpg 228&tempest#2.jpg (57.0 KB, 167 views)

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post #64 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 12:37 AM
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Crap, I just realized that captured image was only for up too 1760hz. Its the same graph as the first one that I posted, just zoomed in on it.

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Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #65 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
This graph might be a little easier to look at and read, again the green line is the Tempest and the pink is my 228HT. The graph has 1/12th smoothing applied and zero EQ for either speaker.


They follow alot, but I suspect that your room has treatment issues. How far are you putting the mic? For the Tempest it needs to be about 0.5m away or less and in line with the center of the waveguide and aimed at it. You are likely getting reflections off the mic stand.

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post #66 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
They follow alot, but I suspect that your room has treatment issues. How far are you putting the mic? For the Tempest it needs to be about 0.5m away or less and in line with the center of the waveguide and aimed at it. You are likely getting reflections off the mic stand.
Depends on what he's going for.....in room or gated? Looks like in room. He's getting much more significant reflections than the mic stand. Half meter away is too close for either to measure a waveguide and to get proper integration with the other drivers.
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post #67 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 01:29 PM
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The mic was 2m's away from both speakers and the mic was level and aimed directly at the waveguide's of both of them.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
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post #68 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Hansen View Post
Depends on what he's going for.....in room or gated? Looks like in room. He's getting much more significant reflections than the mic stand. Half meter away is too close for either to measure a waveguide and to get proper integration with the other drivers.
I'm confused as to what was attempting to be shown. If a comparison of the speakers was the intent then attempting trying to compare speaker response, he was too far away. If he was attempting to show speakers in the room, he probably should shoot for the listening position.

In my opinion, when you reach two meters, the room response can well be contributing to the dips. That the two curves track along most of the graphs makes me believe that the room and the speaker position / angle is contributing to the lack of flatness.

Perhaps I missed it earlier, but what is attempting to be discerned from the graphs? I thought the thrust at one point was to determine the better speaker or attempt to determine how close they were.

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post #69 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 03:59 PM
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2m isn't close enough to remove reflection in a common household room, but 0.5m is much to close to represent the speaker's response. 1m is about right IF you gate the measurement properly and isolate the speaker from boundaries as best possible. Something as large as the Fusion 12 is still not gonna measure easily indoors unless you have vaulted ceilings.

So then, you measure at 2m and let the reflections in. The reflections will be the same for each speaker, so what you do as the reader is compare the difference. For instance, there's a deep null at 400hz in both speakers. I would NOT assume that is an issue with the speaker, rather the room.
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post #70 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 05:07 PM
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So is it a room that will lower the quality of the speakers we hear or is most rooms look like that ?
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post #71 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 05:30 PM
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Below 300hz or so (depends on the room) you enter the modal region where the room begins to dominate the response. This will happen in every small room you put your speakers in. Positioning and room treatments help to an extent. This is why distributed subs work well..... they cancel some modes and boost others based on their position in room. This gets tricky in the midbass region because the wl gets shorter but the room still dominates, as you can see with that gnarly 400hz null.. Directive speakers (IMO) aren't of much use in the modal region but they do help above that if they are constant (or uniform) directivity.

Like tux said I like 1m in room with the speaker halfway between the floor and ceiling. Below 1khz the data will be less detailed due to the freq resolution from the gating. I think 2m+ is ideal if you can get the speaker up in the air outside.
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post #72 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
I'm confused as to what was attempting to be shown. If a comparison of the speakers was the intent then attempting trying to compare speaker response, he was too far away. If he was attempting to show speakers in the room, he probably should shoot for the listening position.

In my opinion, when you reach two meters, the room response can well be contributing to the dips. That the two curves track along most of the graphs makes me believe that the room and the speaker position / angle is contributing to the lack of flatness.

Perhaps I missed it earlier, but what is attempting to be discerned from the graphs? I thought the thrust at one point was to determine the better speaker or attempt to determine how close they were.
I didn't take the measurements trying to prove one speaker is better then the other, nor did I say I was taking the measurement to try to prove that. I simply posted a measurement showing how both speakers compare in my room, I'll try to take a few measurements tonight with the mic 1m away.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #73 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 06:51 PM
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Joe, what's causing that null at 400hz. Honestly, that's really quite bad. Usually they aren't that distinct up that high in frequency.

If you could identify the cause, you could tackle it.

That's the kind of stuff people experience and then say, "I want speakers with more midbass" when really they need to fix some things.
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post #74 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Joe, what's causing that null at 400hz. Honestly, that's really quite bad. Usually they aren't that distinct up that high in frequency.

If you could identify the cause, you could tackle it.

That's the kind of stuff people experience and then say, "I want speakers with more midbass" when really they need to fix some things.
I'm thinking its my room Ryan, my room is 19.5ft long but has about a 7ft opening into the room. So one side is open to the 10'x10' area before the theater room. If I had to guess that is causing the problem, I plan on building a acoustical panel that's 3'x6' and hang it where the opening is to help.

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post #75 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 07:29 PM
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Usually openings aren't the problem. It most definitely is the room. Just wondering what boundary.

Oh wait, that's not at the LP. Nevermind. It doesn't matter for you cause that's a 2m response. I'm losing my brains.
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post #76 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Usually openings aren't the problem. It most definitely is the room. Just wondering what boundary.

Oh wait, that's not at the LP. Nevermind. It doesn't matter for you cause that's a 2m response. I'm losing my brains.
Hopefully you can give me a crash course on measuring with REW when you're out and room measuring too....lol


Which ferry are you catching over on Saturday?

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
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post #77 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Hopefully you can give me a crash course on measuring with REW when you're out and room measuring too....lol


Which ferry are you catching over on Saturday?
I think he could teach everyone a lot on home theater stuff
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post #78 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I think he could teach everyone a lot on home theater stuff

Donny I think I can come over Monday or Tuesday if you still wanted me too.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
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Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #79 of 79 Old 07-11-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Donny I think I can come over Monday or Tuesday if you still wanted me too.
for sure. now I want to take a sweep of my mains too. let me know what day works best for you.
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