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post #421 of 487 Old 08-26-2014, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think the Si15 will work in a 3.75 cuft box. Too small I believe.
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post #422 of 487 Old 08-26-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Unless you have an SI 15 or know of a used one for sale I wouldn't worry about it as the SI 15's are no longer available. Well unless something has changed over the last few days.
I've seen this floating around the forum the last several days, but as pointed out they still show as available. I think I'm going to email and see what the story is. If it's true, I need to cut my losses and move on to a different driver.
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post #423 of 487 Old 08-26-2014, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I don't think the Si15 will work in a 3.75 cuft box. Too small I believe.
It seemed to work pretty well when i plugged everything into winisd today. I will see if i can get a screen grab of it tomorrow.

Either way, do you think i will be blown away by 2 micros considering i will be upgrading from a single 12?

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post #424 of 487 Old 08-26-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by squiers007 View Post
It seemed to work pretty well when i plugged everything into winisd today. I will see if i can get a screen grab of it tomorrow.

Either way, do you think i will be blown away by 2 micros considering i will be upgrading from a single 12?

How are you liking yours near field so far?

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post #425 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
No problem with adjusting sizes to fit your space. The cube is 2' by 2' by 25.5" and I wouldn't go smaller. If you drop one down to 22" I would do 24" by 22" by 27" high. Having the 1099 a little higher ( 1-3") won't effect the sound at all. Having waveguide lower will.
Donny this quote is from my 1099 build. What if I were to build a micro cube with the Daton or Eminance driver but make it 26" tall for my speaker stands? What would the tuning and port length be? Still out the top rear so down the back 23.75" then how long on the bottom?
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post #426 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 06:21 AM
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you'll be about 6 dB down at 20 hz with a 3.75 cu ft box tuned to 23 hz, versus a 9 cu ft box tuned to 18 hz. The 3.75 cubic foot box has a 1 dB advantage from 30 hz and up. The 9 cubic foot -3dB point is 16 hz, -3dB point of the 3.75 box is about 24 hz.

So technically "it works" but you lose a fair amount of SPL from 16-25 hz. To put it in perspective if you doubled up and went with two 3.75 cubic foot boxes, it would have the same output from 16-25 hz as a single sub in a 9 cu ft box.
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post #427 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
you'll be about 6 dB down at 20 hz with a 3.75 cu ft box tuned to 23 hz, versus a 9 cu ft box tuned to 18 hz. The 3.75 cubic foot box has a 1 dB advantage from 30 hz and up. The 9 cubic foot -3dB point is 16 hz, -3dB point of the 3.75 box is about 24 hz.

So technically "it works" but you lose a fair amount of SPL from 16-25 hz. To put it in perspective if you doubled up and went with two 3.75 cubic foot boxes, it would have the same output from 16-25 hz as a single sub in a 9 cu ft box.
was this in reply to me. Are you saying I would be better with my 15" drivers in a larger cabinet. My long pole in the tent is I need them 26" high and my screen wall is 24" from the back wall treatments. so maybe 23" deep but that would be squeaking. I can make them as wide as I need!

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post #428 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 07:33 AM
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Ok, here is what I came up with on winisd. I am pretty much set on going with the micro cube, but am wanting to make sure and use the best possible driver so I can get the most out of the size of the enclosure. In the graphs the Yellow is the micro with the SI D4 15" and the Green is the Dayton 390HO 15".

The settings I have it at right now are for 1 driver in a 3.75 cu ft. (106 liter) enclosure both tuned to 21hz. The SI is getting 1100W, and the Dayton is getting 650 (will be using the Inuke 3000dsp and have 2 subs in the end). The SI has a second order high pass set @ 18hz, and the Dayton has a 2nd order high pass set @ 20hz (in order to control cone excursion). The spl reading is at 1m since these subs will be placed nearfield next to my couch as end tables.

So, here is what I am taking from the graphs

Transfer Function Graph:
-3db: Dayton = 29.3hz, SI = 26.35hz
-6db: Dayton = 22.5hz, SI = 22.3hz
-10db: Dayton = 19.0hz, SI = 19.1hz

Cone Excursion:
Dayton (12.5mm xmax): maxes out at 13mm @ 14hz
SI (22mm xmax): maxes out at 22.5mm @ 12hz

SPL: (difference between SI and Dayton at each frequency with respect to the SI driver)

100hz: -2.7db
80hz: -2.9db
60hz: -3.3db
50hz: -3.5db
40hz: -3.8db
30hz: -3.7db
20hz: -2.1db
16hz: -3.0db

Does anyone see anything wrong with how I set all of this up? I'm fairly new to winisd so I want to make sure I'm not totally messing things up and coming to the wrong conclusions. If I did set everything up correct then it would appear that the SI driver will provide an average of 3.1db more output from 100hz to 16hz than the Dayton at a lower price (~$145 vs. $173).
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post #429 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cw5billwade View Post
was this in reply to me. Are you saying I would be better with my 15" drivers in a larger cabinet. My long pole in the tent is I need them 26" high and my screen wall is 24" from the back wall treatments. so maybe 23" deep but that would be squeaking. I can make them as wide as I need!
no it was in reply to squiers007

What driver's do you have?
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post #430 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
you'll be about 6 dB down at 20 hz with a 3.75 cu ft box tuned to 23 hz, versus a 9 cu ft box tuned to 18 hz. The 3.75 cubic foot box has a 1 dB advantage from 30 hz and up. The 9 cubic foot -3dB point is 16 hz, -3dB point of the 3.75 box is about 24 hz.

So technically "it works" but you lose a fair amount of SPL from 16-25 hz. To put it in perspective if you doubled up and went with two 3.75 cubic foot boxes, it would have the same output from 16-25 hz as a single sub in a 9 cu ft box.
I'm with you on this one, but right now going with a 9cu ft box is unfortunately not an option due to WAF. I know I am sacrificing a lot down low, but this will be a major improvement to my current sealed 12" subwoofer, and I can always add a mini marty down the road.

Did you see my last post with the graphs? Do you see anything I might have done wrong in winisd? Thanks for your input.
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post #431 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
no it was in reply to squiers007

What driver's do you have?
none I was looking at the close out Eminence LAB15 discused earlyer in this thread or the Dayton 390HO .The Eminence LAB15 is 2 for $210 which is a good price I think. In my 1099 thread Donny recomended the Dayton RSS390HF-4 or si18d4 which is about the same price. I just can't get over that 2 for $210 on the Eminence (while they last)

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post #432 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 07:56 AM
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The box does not have to be that big if you go with a 15". SI HT-15 looks good in 5.5 cu ft or a little less tuned to 20 Hz or 21 Hz.
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post #433 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cw5billwade View Post
none I was looking at the close out Eminence LAB15 discused earlyer in this thread or the Dayton 390HO .The Eminence LAB15 is 2 for $210 which is a good price I think. In my 1099 thread Donny recomended the Dayton RSS390HF-4 or si18d4 which is about the same price. I just can't get over that 2 for $210 on the Eminence (while they last)
I'm painting my box for those tonight. They're best in 2x2x2 box ~5.5 cu ft.

You can't beat the value for that sale, it's pretty amazing. The ID sub that uses lab15's is 800 each.

Lab15's don't go too low though, can't really do anything below 20-25 hz.
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post #434 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by squiers007 View Post
I'm with you on this one, but right now going with a 9cu ft box is unfortunately not an option due to WAF. I know I am sacrificing a lot down low, but this will be a major improvement to my current sealed 12" subwoofer, and I can always add a mini marty down the road.

Did you see my last post with the graphs? Do you see anything I might have done wrong in winisd? Thanks for your input.
Yup, there's always trade-offs you have to make. Was just pointing out the differences, not saying it's a bad way to do it or anything.

Your winisd models look good. The SI 15's will still be really impressive in a 3.75 cu ft box.

Like splotten said, doesn't have to be only 3.75 or 9 cu ft. Even 5 cu ft tuned to 20 hz gets you 2 more dB from 25 hz down.
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post #435 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Yup, there's always trade-offs you have to make. Was just pointing out the differences, not saying it's a bad way to do it or anything.

Your winisd models look good. The SI 15's will still be really impressive in a 3.75 cu ft box.

Like splotten said, doesn't have to be only 3.75 or 9 cu ft. Even 5 cu ft tuned to 20 hz gets you 2 more dB from 25 hz down.
Awesome, it's good to know I'm not messing things up in the program. I will have to make some mock-ups with cardboard or something to see how big the wife will let me go. The only things working in my favor is that they will be made to look like furniture and we have been needing new end tables for a while now.

Since my designs are tuned a little lower than the original micro at 21hz instead of 23hz, what will my port length need to be? Any good port length calcs out there? All of the ones I've found are for round ports or square ports...
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post #436 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 08:54 AM
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winisd shows you the port length, width and height for the set tune if you change it from the circle to the square.

I think a ~5.5 cu ft internal volume end table would be pretty reasonably sized, basically 2x2x2 or so
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post #437 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
winisd shows you the port length, width and height for the set tune if you change it from the circle to the square.

I think a ~5.5 cu ft internal volume end table would be pretty reasonably sized, basically 2x2x2 or so
That would be the "Marty-cube" size correct? I have been going back and forth between the cube and the micro. Originally I was going to make both of the end tables as down-firing enclosures meaning I would be adding ~4in. in height to the overall dimensions. This would make the micro ~25" tall and the cube ~ 29" tall. Since the arm rests on my couch sit right around 24-25" this is why I was leaning towards the micro, but if I can convince the wife to have the woofers facing forward then the cube with 18" woofers would win out.

I would love to use the SI 18's so now I just need to convince the wife! Any reason why I couldn't make some sort of "speaker" grill to cover up the woofer and ports ( to make it a little more aesthetically pleasing)?
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post #438 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 09:06 AM
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post #439 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 09:17 AM
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nope a grill is fine
Even over the port openings?

So I plugged in the size of the ports based on the sketchup in the first post for the Micro cube as being 3 ports (1.5" x 6.25"), this gave me a port length for the 21hz tune of 46 in! I'm pretty sure that is not even remotely possible in the micro, so I upped the tuning to 23hz and came up with a port length of 38.28in. This still seems longer than is possible in this cab. Am I calculating this wrong, or is this why everyone was saying the SI 15" wouldn't work in the micro?
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post #440 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 09:27 AM
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Grill's fine over the port

that is the correct port length, you need to bend the port along from the bottom to the back wall.

The SI 15 "works", it's jut not optimal
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post #441 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 09:29 AM
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This is awesome!
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post #442 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 09:33 AM
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Grill's fine over the port

that is the correct port length, you need to bend the port along from the bottom to the back wall.

The SI 15 "works", it's jut not optimal
I get that the port runs along the bottom, then up the back, but at that length it would be running to within only a couple inches from the top. Don't you want to leave more room between the top of the box and the top of the port slot?

Even with the Dayton, according to winisd it wants a port length of 38". But in the original design the effective port length is only 33.75? I think I'm just confusing myself now...
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post #443 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by squiers007 View Post
It seemed to work pretty well when i plugged everything into winisd today. I will see if i can get a screen grab of it tomorrow.

Either way, do you think i will be blown away by 2 micros considering i will be upgrading from a single 12?

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Yes. Down to 20hz you will be very happy.
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post #444 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm camping today so no cell service most of the day . Micro is good , martycube better if you can convince wife
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post #445 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by squiers007 View Post
Even over the port openings?

So I plugged in the size of the ports based on the sketchup in the first post for the Micro cube as being 3 ports (1.5" x 6.25"), this gave me a port length for the 21hz tune of 46 in! I'm pretty sure that is not even remotely possible in the micro, so I upped the tuning to 23hz and came up with a port length of 38.28in. This still seems longer than is possible in this cab. Am I calculating this wrong, or is this why everyone was saying the SI 15" wouldn't work in the micro?
WinISD has been know for calculating longer ports than actually needed in this study:http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/vent_tuning.htm,... so 10-15% is deducted from length to achieve wanted Tuning. Lining the box in this study seems to show a lower tune of about 2Hz also ?
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post #446 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 10:24 AM
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I get that the port runs along the bottom, then up the back, but at that length it would be running to within only a couple inches from the top. Don't you want to leave more room between the top of the box and the top of the port slot?

Even with the Dayton, according to winisd it wants a port length of 38". But in the original design the effective port length is only 33.75? I think I'm just confusing myself now...
Ya leave a few inches of space at the top. I'd say 1-2 inches more than the port height. Just make it as long as possible for the box, a few inches difference won't even be noticeable.
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post #447 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post
WinISD has been know for calculating longer ports than actually needed in this study:http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/vent_tuning.htm,... so 10-15% is deducted from length to achieve wanted Tuning. Lining the box in this study seems to show a lower tune of about 2Hz also ?
Good to know, thanks!
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post #448 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 11:37 AM
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Ya leave a few inches of space at the top. I'd say 1-2 inches more than the port height. Just make it as long as possible for the box, a few inches difference won't even be noticeable.
Think I will just build the cube as designed and stop over analyzing things. I'm leaning towards the ask forgiveness route in regards to WAF. Plus, I just surprised her with a new piano so I have an excess of brownie points right now I need to cash in!!! Thanks everyone for dealing with my winisd modeling OCD. 2 cubes with SI 18's here we come.
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post #449 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Think I will just build the cube as designed and stop over analyzing things. I'm leaning towards the ask forgiveness route in regards to WAF. Plus, I just surprised her with a new piano so I have an excess of brownie points right now I need to cash in!!! Thanks everyone for dealing with my winisd modeling OCD. 2 cubes with SI 18's here we come.
Yup , she'll forgive u
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post #450 of 487 Old 08-27-2014, 11:47 AM
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I'm painting my box for those tonight. They're best in 2x2x2 box ~5.5 cu ft.

You can't beat the value for that sale, it's pretty amazing. The ID sub that uses lab15's is 800 each.

Lab15's don't go too low though, can't really do anything below 20-25 hz.

The standard LAB15 can easily play below 20hz, but those blow out ones that are $210 for two can't. Those units would only really work with a port tune of around 30hz.
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