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post #1 of 41 Old 06-17-2014, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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same yet different w/huge cost diff.

Are these all basically the same speaker. Some use the same drivers, some even the same cabinet shape. The costs range from $2500 - $7000. There must be some other speakers using the same drivers, I just cant think of the others. Oh, they have to be close to the same price.

They claim these speakers compete with $20K commercial speakers and up. Which commercial brands are they suggesting? Claims like that make me want to buy a DIY kit to just to compare. Selah is the only actual DIY kit you can purchase. I have owned B&W Diamond speakers and heard Wilson, Krell, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Klipsh, Monitor Audio and a few other flagship speakers ranging from $10K -$100K. I would love to walk into a hi end store with a pair of these and do a side by side comparison. Do these speakers really stand up to those claims. Its too bad we cant do an actual side by side comparison, I think that would be very interesting for both parties. I'm curious why people buy the salk's at full retail when they can build the Selah for much less. I know not everyone does DIY and maybe buyers in those price ranges don't have the time or desire to build there own. Anyone built the Selah want to post their opinions? I can read the Salk thread concerning the veracity. What about the Symphonia, has anyone purchased those?


Selah Tempesta or maybe Ottavo
http://www.selahaudio.com/id74.html
Salk Veracity HT3
http://salksound.com/ht3%20-%20specifications.htm
Clearwave Symphonia
http://www.clearwavespeakers.com/300386/html/page.html

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post #2 of 41 Old 06-18-2014, 05:49 AM
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You are basically saying "these houses look the same on the ouside so they should cost the same" without knowing anything about the construction, quality, nor anything about the inside.

The XO design can make or break a speaker. There is a reason why there are competitions where people all design with the same drivers and box and end up with wildly different sounding speakers. Rick has been known to do nice XOs. I think that those Salks are designed by Dennis Murphy and not sure on the CS. Dennis is one of the golden ears. If he designed it, expect it to be about as good as it gets. Also worth considering is that the cabinets, while similar externally, may not be the same internally. construction can be wildly different. Also, Xo parts can be priced wildly different because of part quality/complexity. Also also (see what's going on here lol) XO quality control on tolerance can be a hand matched process or not.
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post #3 of 41 Old 06-18-2014, 09:57 AM
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Welcome to the world of DIY.

Most who have had the same questions that you do, usually end up here...and never look back.

 

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post #4 of 41 Old 06-18-2014, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Anthony, The "retail" price from each company is close to the same price. Within $1,000. That difference can be attributed to cabinet finish and XO parts. However. I don't think the XO are that different. Each component to a speaker requires the same specifications so the XO themselves may be different as far as parts but the basic XO is the same. They all have ports, front, rear,bottom or back. If you browse through different DIY build you notice a pattern that repeats. The Woofers are always separate or enclosed within themselves. The midranges are also kept to themselves and the tweeters are separate. With a ribbon or raal most all have open backs for the transmission line. So they are not that different. I wonder if Salk produced a kit it would cost roughly $2k. Salk list his components and if you price them individually you will notice they are half the cost of the actual speaker. The other half is labor and some profit. Salk offers a fair price while other sell their speakers for $15k. I'll bet cost of parts (drivers) etc is roughly between 1K and 2K.
Using your analogy on houses, the homes should cost close to the same amount if they are the same square footage and in the same neighborhood. They may cost $10k higher or lower than your neighbor but they ARE close to the same amount. 10k is nothing when your looking at a $200k home. If your home is $200k and your neighbor is selling his for $2 million then I want to know WHY he thinks its worth so much more. Same with speakers.

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post #5 of 41 Old 06-18-2014, 12:01 PM
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Simply name recognition in certain cases. People see the name and will pay more right out of the gate, and larger companies like B&W have much larger R+D departments, design times, and overhead. It works in just about all areas of free enterprise, you make a name for yourself and it becomes worth something eventually. Other times you build your design and toss some snake oil in there to validate the price and you are ready to rock! Haha.

I will say, at least between Rick and Dennis, neither of those fine designers do what I mentioned above, they are both incredible designers. With that said, designs like the above have piqued my interest lately and I am just in the premature phases of working out a 2-3 way design using ribbons, quality midrange drivers, and big long excursion woofers down low. Not exactly sold on everything yet, and need to get ahold of the new DATS software to complete it all, but should be an incredible performer once done

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post #6 of 41 Old 06-18-2014, 03:17 PM
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I wouldn't hesitate to try any of those brands. I've heard multiple speakers from Clearwave and a design from Selah, they all sounded excellent.

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post #7 of 41 Old 06-18-2014, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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How would you describe them Face? Which did you hear? I heard the Salk SongTowers and those are some great speakers for price. They sounded better than speakers costing $4,000. (Paradigm Signature series and Monitor Audio) Probably due to my personal preference in music. The Veracity sound good for $6000 speakers but could not compete with speakers in the $15,000 (B&W 802D) Not the Di due to the cost increase. Again, maybe my personal preference in music. However, if I could DIY them for $2,000 then that would be a deal.
I've been debating between the Statements and the 4T, I've heard some say the Statements are better for music while the 4T were better for Home Theater. (probably due to the tweeter). And some reviewers did say they sounded as good as the 802D and Monitor Audio Platinum.
What would you compare yours to face?
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post #8 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 08:01 AM
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If you are considering spending $15,000 on a pair of speakers chances are you are looking for near perfection. DIY is great but when you don't have a perfect crossover the result is much less than perfection. Slapping drivers together will get you a result, and it might be better than what a commercial speaker of the same cost offers. However the real challenge is designing the crossover. Any experienced diyer will tell you the same. If you are serious about this you need to get help on that crossover otherwise the result won't be much more than mediocre.
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post #9 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 08:55 AM
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Meniscus Audio sells a kit by Dennis Murphy (designer of the Song Tower) that is close to the Salk Songtower and could be built for under $1000 assuming you can build your own cabinets.

As for the Selah Tempesta, it is $2300 for just the drivers and crossover parts. If you can build the cabinets, you should have a great speaker for $2600 but that is over your 2k number. I have heard a number of Rick's designs over the years and they have all sounded very good.

I have not heard any Clearwave but have heard the Statements numerous times and they always sound great. A pair of Statements could be built for under $1300 again, building your own cabinets.

Good luck.
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post #10 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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My friend cant make up his mind. ugh.OH. He will be placing these in his home theater with subs. I tried convincing him to buy some waveguides but he said he doesn't care for that sound. He said he owned some Klipsch and they were too bright so he wants to stay away from any "horn" type sound. That's why he was considering ribbons. We went to a hi-fi store and auditioned the Martin Logan's which he said NO to because of the setup and "sweetspot" requirements. We then tried the Maggies which he liked but thought they were too "laid back" he wants something more forward but "not in your face" type speaker. We then tried the Monitor Audio Platinum which he liked the best so far but he said they were "lacking" something. I know what he means but I cant put it into words. He did like the B&W 800D and Wilson Sophia. Im not sure if the ribbon tweeter is a winner or not. The salesman asked if he heard any line arrays which he hasn't. Well, a friend owns some McIntosh speakers. (8 years old) Blaa.. lol I don't care much for the sound. He wasn't blown away but threw them in the mix.
I showed him some of the Selah designs and now he is asking if Line Arrays would be a good choice for HT. He's wondering if it covers a full area since they are floor to ceiling type speakers. He wants to make sure everyone has a good seat and hears all the sound equally. He wants a 3-d type speaker were the sound fills the room but you cant tell where the speakers are. He thinks that directional speakers would be bad Ie. conventional box. My theory is "theaters" use Waveguides just for that reason, they are not using Martin Logans or Maggies etc because its NOT their strong point. Not sure if anyone uses line arrays or not. Concerts use line arrays but im not sure if its the same design that selah uses.
If I can convince him to go up north Ill let him listen to my QSC's and Seos Tempest. I don't think they sound like Klipsch horn at all. They may not have extreme vocals like a ribbon but they play loud. besides, when your watching a movie its more visual, you pay closer attention to what your seeing than hearing. your brain will fill in the blanks. He still wants to DIY. he is not spending $20K for a pair of speakers no matter how good they sound. lol So what are you votes for best DIY theater speakers. (price no object). Standard tweeters, Waveguides, Ribbons Line Array, etc. He is driving me crazy, while I don't mind auditioning speakers are pissing off the salesman (telling him my seos blow his B&W ct out of the water, which they DO). Driving to different stores all day gets old.
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post #11 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 12:47 PM
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Line arrays are great designs. I have heard the CBT that Rick at Selah offers and it is a truly incredible speaker. I also own the av123 ls-6's which are also a very incredible speaker. I love their sound and they have some serious oomph on the bottom end to say the least...

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post #12 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Since you own both line array and SEOS which do you feel is a better choice for home theater? When using your array what do you use for a center and rear speakers and do they integrate well. He doesn't want to buy speakers unless he has no other choice, he would prefer do DIY everything.
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post #13 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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What if he went this route http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...eeter--275-085 $49.98
Dayton Audio XO2W-2K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,000 Hz . http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...00-hz--260-140 $29.50 Or would a 3K crossover be a better choice.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...river--295-345 $79.90
He could buy 2 woofers, place each on opposite ends and use 2 ribbons in the middle with the P.E. per built XO. What are your thoughts on this design? It would be cheap.
OR should he use B&G neo planar? Either their 8" or 10" that would add to the cost. or maybe swap out the 8" woofers for Morel 4" woofer or mid woofer. Im not sure of the best way to pair up parts with a pre-built XO. Any suggestions?
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post #14 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
Since you own both line array and SEOS which do you feel is a better choice for home theater? When using your array what do you use for a center and rear speakers and do they integrate well. He doesn't want to buy speakers unless he has no other choice, he would prefer do DIY everything.
Well, they both honestly are great for both but if I were to break it down to brass tacks, the LS6's are more geared towards music performance and the SEOS horns are better for HT. With that said, they both do incredible for both (again). If a "horn" sound is what he doesn't like, he just hasn't heard a good horn yet. I now currently use the LS-6's upstairs as a strictly 2 channel setup, no surrounds, for TV and casual music listening in my main den/hangout area. They were previously downstairs in the theater, running a phantom center. The SEOS supplanted them along with a matching center and the design I built out was once again incredible for music, or I wouldn't have moved the LS-6's as when I really want to listen to music fully, I use the theater.

Back to the horn debate, I now have the SEOS in storage (so to speak) and use the Danley sh50's as my main LR combo and an sh69 in the middle (different horn dispersion pattern for the center) and they basically trump anything I have heard thus far in any theater, period. They react well with the room, the soundstage is the absolute most incredible I have ever heard, and I don't see myself deviating from the synergy horn concept for a long time...If Spielberg likes them for his theater, then why ask any more questions?!?! It brings a new medium to any content I have ever thrown at them. You always want to strive to find a setup that makes you want to re-watch/listen to anything you appreciate, and these have absolutely done that for me on more than one level....

Now DIY'ing a pair of Danley's is quite the task, and not for the faint of heart, so I will leave it at that.

The surround I have used through all three setups are coaxial 10" designs, and now a newer 8" coaxial using the Beyma neo coaxial that I am still working on for a custom XO. They voice well and unless you are doing multichannel stereo leave nothing to be desired on the table whatsoever. Bottom line, you go high efficiency for the fronts, you want something that can keep up for the surrounds. horns up front? Don't even think about dome tweets for the surrounds...You want to match efficiency well.
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post #15 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow those are nice and expensive speakers. I thought about bringing my seos tempest home just so he could listen to them before making up his mind. Like you said, its not the best idea to mix speakers. For 2 ch. I bet he would love the line arrays. Using coax speakers for surrounds sounds like a good idea, maybe I should build a set for my sides.

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post #16 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
What if he went this route http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...eeter--275-085 $49.98
Dayton Audio XO2W-2K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,000 Hz . http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...00-hz--260-140 $29.50 Or would a 3K crossover be a better choice.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...river--295-345 $79.90
He could buy 2 woofers, place each on opposite ends and use 2 ribbons in the middle with the P.E. per built XO. What are your thoughts on this design? It would be cheap.
OR should he use B&G neo planar? Either their 8" or 10" that would add to the cost. or maybe swap out the 8" woofers for Morel 4" woofer or mid woofer. Im not sure of the best way to pair up parts with a pre-built XO. Any suggestions?
Prebuilt crossovers are a horrible idea. Yes the speaker will make sound; will it make good sound, probably not. A proper crossover is designed for the exact drivers and cabinet/baffle they are mounted in. As others have said, the crossover is the heart of the speaker and makes or breaks the sound. There is a reason speakers from Dennis Murphy or Rick Craig sound so good, and it is the crossover.
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post #17 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah that makes sense, without them sharing their crossover designs we would be doing it all on our own. I was trying to think of a cheap alternative for his 1st diy build but if he really wants to try line arrays he will just have to put up some cash and see how it works out in the end. If I can talk him into waveguides he will have lots of cheaper options, then he can spend more IF he feels he needs to. For the price of Selah L.A. he could build 5 to 7 waveguide designs from diysg. Some tempest, center, and 2 to 4 rears.
Im not saying he wouldn't be happy with the Selah L.A. but for a theater its hard to beat a full 7 ch speaker setup for the same price.
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post #18 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 08:10 PM
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Very true. The XO is paramount as has been said. There are way too many incredibly sounding designs out already with XO's already designed to make him happy. Honestly, although I haven't heard a pair, if he likes the ribbon sound and wants to DIY it to the fullest, the Statements are a great idea for him. My next design kind of harps on what the statements do, but uses better drivers... basically a hybrid of the Statement and the HT3 from what I have figured out so far. The good news is, you can get the entire Statement schematic and XO design right from the website. The fountek they use is a quality ribbon, and with the mids, you can still drive them to pretty (sane) intense levels.

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post #19 of 41 Old 06-19-2014, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you mean the Uluwatu?

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post #20 of 41 Old 06-20-2014, 06:46 AM
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No, the statement. I was suggesting this based on the fact your buddy liked the ribbon sound, and the statement uses one. the Uluwatu looks like a Line array but I would look into whether or not it in fact is designed like one. Honestly, if you were going to do Line array, I would look no further than the CBT design Rick Craig utilizes.

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post #21 of 41 Old 06-20-2014, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
Wow those are nice and expensive speakers. I thought about bringing my seos tempest home just so he could listen to them before making up his mind. Like you said, its not the best idea to mix speakers. For 2 ch. I bet he would love the line arrays. Using coax speakers for surrounds sounds like a good idea, maybe I should build a set for my sides.
You should talk beast into selling you his SEOS. I've had the chance of checking them out in person and he did a really great job constructing and finishing them. Didn't get a chance to hear them, but I've heard many SEOS designs using the DNA-360 Compression Driver. Since beast has his one-off version coupled with the TD12X, I can safely say that his sound similar to the other variants I've heard, but with more substantial lowend output.

beast, hope you don't mind but I dug up a few post from your build regarding the outstanding crossover build quality and the incredible in room response measurements that you took of these, "WITHOUT EQ" to boot! I can't think of anything close to $1,500 that would measure that well with that much potential ouput accross the FR!

On the other hand if you can't talk beast out of his SEOS, or your friend doesn't want to experiment with SEOS on his own, he could always buy a CBT-36 kit from Parts Express... After hearing Rick Craigs CBT-45, I have no doubt that these would be stellar perfomers...maybe just a tad bit more difficult to integreate, but one propertly integrated they should be incredible.

 

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post #22 of 41 Old 06-20-2014, 07:09 AM
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Not one bit man! I am not opposed to letting the SEOS go either really, but I might have plans for those td12x's here in a little while

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post #23 of 41 Old 06-20-2014, 07:18 AM
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If he can afford the Line Arrays from Selah, then those will be some of the best sounding speakers, period, IMHO.

I am also partial to ribbons and think the Tempesta is a giant killer for the price! Yes, the Seos designs will get louder, and have more dynamics, but, they won't even come close to having the detail, clarity, top end & mid-range of the other Seos. Bottom line is that if your friend has a large room, watches mostly movies instead of music, and listens to movies at reference level volumes, then a high efficiency design such as the Seos will be his best choice. The Line Arrays may also be a good choice as I would expect them to be very efficient due to the number of drivers that they have, although, I am not 100% sure that is the case wrt Line Arrays.

If his room isn't too big, and he doesn't crank up the volume all the way to reference, then the Tempesta would be an extreme value and would probably best anything under $7,000.00 on the commercial market. Only thing is that he would need at least two quality 18" subs, if not more. Two Dayton HO18's and a Behringer iNuke6000dsp would make for a hell of a setup!
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post #24 of 41 Old 06-20-2014, 07:42 AM
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More efficient than bookshelves, yes, but still not your HE design like an SEOS would be. Looking at around 90dB 1w/1m or so in a line array, close to 100dB 1w/1m with a horn design usually.

Also keep in mind, line sources don't lose as much volume with distance from the speaker which yields nicely for longer room or further listening positions. Traditional designs lose 6dB per doubling of distance, where Line Arrays will only lose 3dB per doubling. It is exactly why the design is used so often in commercial applications.

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post #25 of 41 Old 06-24-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
Are these all basically the same speaker. Some use the same drivers, some even the same cabinet shape. The costs range from $2500 - $7000. There must be some other speakers using the same drivers, I just cant think of the others. Oh, they have to be close to the same price.

They claim these speakers compete with $20K commercial speakers and up. Which commercial brands are they suggesting? Claims like that make me want to buy a DIY kit to just to compare. Selah is the only actual DIY kit you can purchase. I have owned B&W Diamond speakers and heard Wilson, Krell, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Klipsh, Monitor Audio and a few other flagship speakers ranging from $10K -$100K. I would love to walk into a hi end store with a pair of these and do a side by side comparison. Do these speakers really stand up to those claims. Its too bad we cant do an actual side by side comparison, I think that would be very interesting for both parties. I'm curious why people buy the salk's at full retail when they can build the Selah for much less. I know not everyone does DIY and maybe buyers in those price ranges don't have the time or desire to build there own. Anyone built the Selah want to post their opinions? I can read the Salk thread concerning the veracity. What about the Symphonia, has anyone purchased those?


Selah Tempesta or maybe Ottavo
http://www.selahaudio.com/id74.html
Salk Veracity HT3
http://salksound.com/ht3%20-%20specifications.htm
Clearwave Symphonia
http://www.clearwavespeakers.com/300386/html/page.html
Sorry for my late post but I have been following the thread. Jed and Dennis both do good crossover work. We are using similar drivers (sometimes the same units) but all of the speakers you've noted here are quite different.

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post #26 of 41 Old 06-24-2014, 03:43 PM
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My friend cant make up his mind. ugh.OH. He will be placing these in his home theater with subs. I tried convincing him to buy some waveguides but he said he doesn't care for that sound. He said he owned some Klipsch and they were too bright so he wants to stay away from any "horn" type sound. That's why he was considering ribbons. We went to a hi-fi store and auditioned the Martin Logan's which he said NO to because of the setup and "sweetspot" requirements. We then tried the Maggies which he liked but thought they were too "laid back" he wants something more forward but "not in your face" type speaker. We then tried the Monitor Audio Platinum which he liked the best so far but he said they were "lacking" something. I know what he means but I cant put it into words. He did like the B&W 800D and Wilson Sophia. Im not sure if the ribbon tweeter is a winner or not. The salesman asked if he heard any line arrays which he hasn't. Well, a friend owns some McIntosh speakers. (8 years old) Blaa.. lol I don't care much for the sound. He wasn't blown away but threw them in the mix.
I showed him some of the Selah designs and now he is asking if Line Arrays would be a good choice for HT. He's wondering if it covers a full area since they are floor to ceiling type speakers. He wants to make sure everyone has a good seat and hears all the sound equally. He wants a 3-d type speaker were the sound fills the room but you cant tell where the speakers are. He thinks that directional speakers would be bad Ie. conventional box. My theory is "theaters" use Waveguides just for that reason, they are not using Martin Logans or Maggies etc because its NOT their strong point. Not sure if anyone uses line arrays or not. Concerts use line arrays but im not sure if its the same design that selah uses.
If I can convince him to go up north Ill let him listen to my QSC's and Seos Tempest. I don't think they sound like Klipsch horn at all. They may not have extreme vocals like a ribbon but they play loud. besides, when your watching a movie its more visual, you pay closer attention to what your seeing than hearing. your brain will fill in the blanks. He still wants to DIY. he is not spending $20K for a pair of speakers no matter how good they sound. lol So what are you votes for best DIY theater speakers. (price no object). Standard tweeters, Waveguides, Ribbons Line Array, etc. He is driving me crazy, while I don't mind auditioning speakers are pissing off the salesman (telling him my seos blow his B&W ct out of the water, which they DO). Driving to different stores all day gets old.
Wow - you guys have listened to a wide spectrum of speakers! The format determines quite a bit of the sound (and of course how it's executed). My feeling is that electrostatics and full-range planars don't translate well into a home theater. While I mainly come from a 2-channel background I have also been involved in mixing for pro sound using large horn-based systems. I became addicted to the presentation and dynamics of line arrays which do great for both 2-channel and HT.

People tend to lump arrays into the same category but they can sound quite different depending on the design - the same is true of horns/waveguides as well as conventional dynamic systems. What's "best" really depends on what your performance objectives are.

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post #27 of 41 Old 06-25-2014, 09:27 AM
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Since you own both line array and SEOS which do you feel is a better choice for home theater? When using your array what do you use for a center and rear speakers and do they integrate well. He doesn't want to buy speakers unless he has no other choice, he would prefer do DIY everything.
I have designed theaters where we used arrays for all speakers as well as projects where arrays and non-arrays were mixed. Many systems simply won't allow arrays in each position due to room or budget constraints. In that case the center channel choice is usually the most critical. You want a center that can keep up with the L/R arrays with plenty of output capability, smooth response, and good coverage. That's not difficult to do and it will actually integrate better than you might think.

The same applies to the surrounds. When possible I try to keep all the drivers within the same family because tonality is important to me. A shorter array is an alternative for a surround but 36" in length is the minimum that I suggest.

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post #28 of 41 Old 06-26-2014, 05:08 AM
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I have designed theaters where we used arrays for all speakers as well as projects where arrays and non-arrays were mixed. Many systems simply won't allow arrays in each position due to room or budget constraints. In that case the center channel choice is usually the most critical. You want a center that can keep up with the L/R arrays with plenty of output capability, smooth response, and good coverage. That's not difficult to do and it will actually integrate better than you might think.

The same applies to the surrounds. When possible I try to keep all the drivers within the same family because tonality is important to me. A shorter array is an alternative for a surround but 36" in length is the minimum that I suggest.

Do you happen to have any Line Array center channel designs that use ribbons and aren't ubber expensive? I recently got to hear the CBT-36 and was completely blown away. Dude had three of them for his LCR, and they sounded heavenly in his acoustically treated, medium sized room. If I could afford the $2k price of the CBT-36 then I would be all over it!

I would, however, be interested in building a single center channel array just to compare to my Sierra-1 that I am currently using in my living room setup. It would be really nice if you had an affordable ribbon based center channel array, or possibly an affordable dome tweeter array that I could build just to try out!
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post #29 of 41 Old 06-26-2014, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
Do you happen to have any Line Array center channel designs that use ribbons and aren't ubber expensive? I recently got to hear the CBT-36 and was completely blown away. Dude had three of them for his LCR, and they sounded heavenly in his acoustically treated, medium sized room. If I could afford the $2k price of the CBT-36 then I would be all over it!

I would, however, be interested in building a single center channel array just to compare to my Sierra-1 that I am currently using in my living room setup. It would be really nice if you had an affordable ribbon based center channel array, or possibly an affordable dome tweeter array that I could build just to try out!
Been wanting to do a CBT-36 DIY Kit since they were introduced a while back. Sounds like they left you with a positive impression! Wish there were more people that have heard these guys.

 

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post #30 of 41 Old 06-26-2014, 07:51 AM
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Marty, I am just curious, is there anything you AREN'T interested in building? I feel like you have around 30 different projects in queue right now.
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