*help -> WAVEGUIDE speakers Fusion-10 Pure speaker kit and Eminence Delta 10A - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 08:13 AM
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I'm in a similar situation....which speaker kit would you recommend for three identical LCRs to be used behind the AT screen in our home theater? Have 21" of depth between the screen and treated wall in the rear and 96" wide behind the screen. Total room size is 13X26X7 and I already have the sub taken care of. Current speakers are Paradigm Studio 100s and the matching Center.

Is there any advantage to be had since I'm local to Cincinnati?

I don't really like talking about my flair

My Home Theater Project:
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post #62 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 08:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post
I'm in a similar situation....which speaker kit would you recommend for three identical LCRs to be used behind the AT screen in our home theater? Have 21" of depth between the screen and treated wall in the rear and 96" wide behind the screen. Total room size is 13X26X7 and I already have the sub taken care of. Current speakers are Paradigm Studio 100s and the matching Center.

Is there any advantage to be had since I'm local to Cincinnati?
tempests
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post #63 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 08:31 AM
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Metallica - One

Listening level: About 50% from my computer, 80% from the amp, EQ flat, sub ON, with Klipsch EQ Punch. Speakers were Fusion 10 Pure. The room was small, almost near-field listening. Result: Very hard hitting bass punch, especially bass and snare drum. Overall sound was medium loud, but sounded even better as the sound was cranked up to LOUD levels.

Intro was subdued helicopter sounds, gunfire and explosions which sounded surreal. The solo lead guitar cut very cleanly to start the body of the song. I could hear each ringing of each guitar note with the characteristic "snap punch" a guitar string makes. When the drum enters the song about 1:00 it has a full but punchy sound which gets your attention. You can really hear the superb tuning of the snare and bass drums. Cymbals are not as pronounced, but I think that was intentional in the mixing.

Despite the heavy bass sounds, the solo male voice cuts through very clear, you can hear every word. The piercing sextuplets played by the lead guitar and doubled on snare and the double bass drum around 4:50 sounds amazing.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #64 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 08:39 AM
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Machinehead

Listening level: About 50% from my computer, 80% from the amp, EQ flat, sub ON, with Klipsch EQ Punch. Speakers were Fusion 10 Pure. The room was small, almost near-field listening. Result: Muddy bass, no highs, no lows. Overall sound was distorted and compressed.

There was no dynamic contrast, and the guitars both lead and rhythm played with such distortion this one was hard to play loud. I turned this one down to about 1/4 on my computer, and it still didn't sound very good to me. The low quality Youtube source is likely to blame for this sound.

Smitty wrote:

Quote:
"Had to add this song... It sounds weak with my martin logans.

I cut them off at 150hz, makes them A LOT better than 120hz or lower... But in some songs makes some of that over 80hz bass directional... Kinda sucks... Anyways let me know how the guitar and the full/thickness of the song."
Don't blame your Martin Logans for this one, Smitty. This Youtube tune played at 240p is low level, and it is going to sound bad no matter what speakers it is played on.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

Last edited by wvu80; 06-20-2014 at 08:46 AM.
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post #65 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
wvu80 -> I should of found you better quality links, I actually do not use youtube for my music playback. My apologies.
No apology needed, I got just what I needed.

We all know there are limitations to Youtube videos, but they also give us a common point of reference. I love the Youtube music videos.
+++
"I think the word I'm trying to say is "compression".... Like when my speakers get turned up past 85 dB they start hurting the ears... That is compression? " (Smitty)

No, that is DISTORTION. The thing that makes these SEOS speakers different is that when they get played LOUD, they do NOT distort. That's how you get a life-like loud sound without it hurting your ears.

FYI compression is done in the studio while mixing the sound. The top end and the bottom end of the sound is cut off, making for a sound that doesn't distort, but it also makes the sound less lifelike, with all the sound being in the middle of the range. It doesn't sound very lifelike, very average, not exciting.

Room size: It is a converted bed room (bed removed) 14' wide and 10' deep.

As you look at the computer, the door is behind and to the right. The SEOS are heavily toed in to the listening position, at ear level on metal grill shelves.

The Klipsch RW-12d is the bottom of the line Klipsch with a 12" woofer. It is not supposed to be very "musical" but I have no experience with other subs. The way I had it set up I never heard any sound coming directly from the sub, all the sound reinforcement came from the Fusion's 10" woofers. The Klipsch can be set up to "Punch, Depth, Flat." I tested it in "Punch" mode, with zero +/- db gain. I put it near a corner because that's where there was a space for it, there was no thought about proper setup. This was my first time listening to it in the computer room with the Fusion's. It sounded pretty good.

The Pioneer VSX-D514 5.1 audio/receiver is 10 years old, 100 watts per channel. I like if for testing because it does not have any "listening modes" to color the sound of the speakers. I had it set up for 2.1 sound.
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Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

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post #66 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 09:37 AM
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If you like mid mass punch you might want something like an MTM or MMT fusion 12

Or you could go all the way with Erich's new monster tower.

Don't be afraid.

I think a dual 8" fusion is an option too.
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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #67 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 09:38 AM
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[QUOTE=barhoram;25120329]I'm in a similar situation....which speaker kit would you recommend for three identical LCRs to be used behind the AT screen in our home theater? Have 21" of depth between the screen and treated wall in the rear and 96" wide behind the screen. Total room size is 13X26X7 and I already have the sub taken care of. Current speakers are Paradigm Studio 100s and the matching Center.

I got the Fusion 10 because it fit exactly into the space my wife had given me inside a console hutch. It is still a large speaker, being 1 cuft. The new Fusion 10 is slightly smaller, which I think is actually better for most people.

The Fusion 12 Tempest would have a MUCH larger flatpack at 2.0 cuft to accommodate the larger 12" woofers. Three Tempests would fill with sound almost any home theater and give you a huge, clear sound stage. In the DIY Soundgroup world, there are also some different options for a center, like the 88 Special. You have options.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...ecial-kit.html

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-pa...flat-pack.html

Is there any advantage to be had since I'm local to Cincinnati? [/QUOTE

Sure there is, I bet you can get heavy discounts on Pirates' gear.

That, and DIY Soundgroup is in or around Cinci, you can probably make a pilgrimage to the SEOS DIY compound, and meet the Maharaja Erich, all at the same time saving on shipping costs
.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #68 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
wvu80 -> I should of found you better quality links, I actually do not use youtube for my music playback. My apologies.
I just want to say that if he is saying that these songs sound GREAT on youtube playbacks on these speakers, you'll LOVE them with high quality file playback (FLAC or even just 320 mp3 is far better than youtube. I'd rather sit in silence than listen to a youtube clip on my setup I don't care if it's my favorite song or any song I will not listen to youtube). You've been on the fence for awhile and everyone has told you the same thing, bigger is better.

So if the biggest you can afford is the Fusion 10 and you like the Fusion 10 then get it. And stop worrying about the old Fusion 10. A) it's not available. B) you would HATE the 12 inch waveguide with the 10 inch woofer.
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post #69 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 12:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post
I just want to say that if he is saying that these songs sound GREAT on youtube playbacks on these speakers, you'll LOVE them with high quality file playback (FLAC or even just 320 mp3 is far better than youtube. I'd rather sit in silence than listen to a youtube clip on my setup I don't care if it's my favorite song or any song I will not listen to youtube). You've been on the fence for awhile and everyone has told you the same thing, bigger is better.

So if the biggest you can afford is the Fusion 10 and you like the Fusion 10 then get it. And stop worrying about the old Fusion 10. A) it's not available. B) you would HATE the 12 inch waveguide with the 10 inch woofer.
... youtube 720p or 1080p video audio quality is 384 kbit/s so it's fine ...

If you have enterprise quality internet connection you can put 384 kbit/s on 360p video even.

Pretty much any modern music on youtube is quite good quality, older music on youtube is almost always low quality though.
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post #70 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 12:42 PM
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My Tempest's fill a room 22 feet deep.. I put them up against my friend's Klipsch Heresy and even he was impressed. 3 Tempests cost less than a pair or Klispch with money to spare for subs or rears. DIYSG offers coax speakers for rears/sides mounted to walls.
p.s. what is the ideal height for the waveguide to be mounted from the floor? 42" or so?
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post #71 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
My Tempest's fill a room 22 feet deep.. I put them up against my friend's Klipsch Heresy and even he was impressed. 3 Tempests cost less than a pair or Klispch with money to spare for subs or rears. DIYSG offers coax speakers for rears/sides mounted to walls.
p.s. what is the ideal height for the waveguide to be mounted from the floor? 42" or so?
Ear height or slightly lower is what I've always heard, so at a sitting position that would be about 42"! (I just measured mine)

We haven't talked about this, but one of the real advantages of the SEOS over my large floorstanding Klipsch speakers is that the Klipsch is very sensitive to placement and orientation, and if you move up/down or sideways from the center position, you lose a LOT of that crisp punch.

The SEOS are much more forgiving from left to right, and from sitting to standing. For me, that makes for a better listening experience for the family when watching TV or movies.

Both Klipsch and SEOS are plenty loud and clear when heard from another room.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #72 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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wvu80 -> I cant thank you enough for the help!

I think it is clear to say the fusion 10 is better in my case than the quad4, and the fusion12 would be even better but I can not afford... So I think I have to get the fusion10. Also it fits in a smaller cab, so that really helps...

I do want to ask though, how much better would the fusion10 be than the VOLT 8 and 10" models. I feel the fusion10 would be best because of the extra size of cab, port, waveguide and the bigger compression driver...

I was thinking if I should use the volt 8 or 10 for surrounds.... It would put me out of my budget... But I was thinking I need to make it worth it if I'm paying for the shipping and tax anyways...

Would this work well -> Fusion10 for L and R, fusion4 for C, volt 10 for surrounds (since price difference is almost nothing... Bigger better?

Only problem I see is the difference compression drivers from LR to C... Also I hate not being able to make out the dialog easily... Would it be a problem?

Ty!
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post #73 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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rlhaudio -> thanks for the idea for the surrounds.
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post #74 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Mfusick -> Hahaha, I only need 100 dB and I'm happy, anymore than that it's just too much. That's why I'm having a hard time deciding between the fusion4 and fusion10. But now I'm 90% fusion10 10% fusion4. What are the dimensions of the new fusion10? I like that it's small, I just don't know how small.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
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post #75 of 92 Old 06-20-2014, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
Mfusick -> Hahaha, I only need 100 dB and I'm happy, anymore than that it's just too much. . What are the dimensions of the new fusion10? I like that it's small, I just don't know how small.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
The dimensions are 12.5" wide x 20" tall x 12" deep (with 3/4" front baffle attached) . Compared to mine, they are only slightly smaller. They are more narrow by 2" in the front, same height, and actually the new ones are a little deeper than mine.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-pa...flat-pack.html

I don't know if you are going to use the flat packs or get your own speaker box built at home, but the flat packs are tremendous, and very easy to do. You could build your speakers using only glue and some duct tape to hold them together. That's because they have channels built into them which make all the boards fit inside one another. I used clamps, but the box fit together so well I really didn't need to.

I would also recommend you get a completed cross over (XO), rather than build your own. I would say build your own if you have the solder and soldering iron, wire and material for the XO and you really want that experience of building it yourself.
+++
Quote:
That's why I'm having a hard time deciding between the fusion4 and fusion10. But now I'm 90% fusion10 10% fusion4
I would not have had a good answer until today, when I listened to my Fusion 10's using your music.

For picking a center speaker, to be honest you really can't make a mistake, because the Fusion 10's with a sub will really give you 99% of the sound and loudness you want. Any SEOS type center you pick will only make the sound better, but I think with your musical preferences a Fusion 10 center will match up the best. That's because you want chest thump power, and you want it loud. The Fusion 10 as a center will give you the most mid range punch of the speakers you were looking at.

I don't know if you will be playing music only or hooking your audio up to your TV. If you go with the Quad 4, it will give you very clear voices when watching TV, but it will not go as loud. The Fusion 10 will give you a clear center sound, and play loud when you ask for it.

Remember, I used only two Fusion 10's, and a sub which is not as good as yours, and I used low quality source material from Youtube. That sound level still completely ran me out of the room, and I could only go about half-way on the volume control at best. A third Fusion 10 will not add 33% more loudness, but it will be louder no matter what and it will match the sound levels of your L/R's when played loud for music.

To save money, use the Logan Martins for your surrounds. Surround speakers don't play full music normally, they play gun shots, birds chirping, and simply are not as important as the front three speakers, I watched some basketball last week. The center speaker sound was only the announcers talking, music was in the left/right front speakers. The only thing that came out of the surrounds were the sounds of tennis shoes squeaking, people clapping, and the ball clunking as it hit the rim. It was all background sounds.

I would invest in the front 3 speakers, for the absolutely best sound for your money.

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

Last edited by wvu80; 06-20-2014 at 09:13 PM.
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post #76 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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wvu80 -> That looks amazing!! Thanks a lot!!

I'm def getting 2 fusion10s and now I just need decide the C and surrounds.

The only reason I will not use the martins is I will sell them. I'm almost sure I can get $1000 E.C. = $400 U.S. That will pay for about 1/3 of the fusion10s.. This is why I kept asking how much of an upgrade.

Let me know ideas for C surrounds plz. 100% getting the fusion10s.
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post #77 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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wvu80 -> curious though how did the fusion10 sound compare to the bose 301?

After selling the 5 martin speakers, what surrounds should I build?
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post #78 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 02:11 PM
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[QUOTE=Smittyfit;25144738]wvu80 -> curious though how did the fusion10 sound compare to the bose 301?

I have to get the wife out of the house to test the 301's with the same music as before.

Bose 301 II, 8" woofer, two 3" tweeters. SEOS Fusion 10 Pure, 10" woofer, SEOS 12" waveguide.



I used them for 15 years before upgrading to the Fusion 10's, so I have a good guess where this is going to go. I think they will sound pretty good as they have a very pleasant mid-range, but there is no way they will thump the chest with sound, even a little bit. They can play loud, but they will not thump. The 301's will roll off when they start to get loud and start to sound compressed. That is where the Fusion 10's will walk away from them.

The Fusion 10's are much more comparable to the used Klipsch CF-4's I picked up a couple of months ago, in terms of playing clean, and very loud. All three are 2-way speakers, and the Fusion is physically more similar to the Bose ($400 when new) with its 8" woofer, but it sounds a lot more like the Klipsch ($2,500 when new)


I don't mean to be throwing money figures around, but I think it helps to compare sound AND price to see if you are getting the best sound for your money. I'm cheap and buy used, so I didn't pay those prices for either the Klipsch or the Bose.



After selling the 5 martin speakers, what surrounds should I build?[/QUOTE

I think I have less than $100 total in the two surrounds I have. I took some old blown speakers and bought new tweeters and 4" woofers and stuck them in there. The sound really good, but I think was lucky, as most of the experts here will tell you NOT to do that.

The Overnight Sensations would be a good choice, as surrounds do NOT need to timbre match the fronts for reasons already discussed. There is also a very highly rated Parts Express speaker which might fit your needs. I'll get you a link.

Edit: Here you go, $35 for the PAIR.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...-pair--300-652

Look at the great reviews on those, with 6.5 " woofers! They are larger than my home-made surrounds which have 4" woofers, and I think that is the same tweeter I put in my upgraded speakers.
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post #79 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 03:06 PM
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Can't wait for the Fusion 10s to become available. I picked up a 1099 this morning for my center channel. Looking forward to building these!
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post #80 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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wvu80 -> You are awesome! Those little daytons should do the trick perfect, and bring down my overall cost by A LOT!! I can get the pair of those Daytons for $35...

Breakdowns:

Around $212 per fusion10 that is 424 and 35 (day tons) = $459 + the centre maybe fusion4 = 459 + 133 = $592

With 3 fusion4 and the dayton surround = 399 + 35 = $434

Not much of a price difference for potentially double the performance with the fusion10 over the fusion4 (in my situation, no hate on the fusion4)

However... I'm wondering if it may be better since I'm ordering... Getting a DIY subwoofer on the move here too... Something like the Dayton ultimax, or a horn...

Also if I make the fusion10, I will have to make a custom TV stand... I will need it slimmer so the fusion10 is not peeking in the hallway... Any options as to what design? In the design I would want certain things... I may need to make another thread on this... And I will include all the dimensions to my place.... I need it efficient...

Let me know the thoughts. As of now I think the fusion10s and my current subwoofer is the best way to go... But somethings telling me if I do this.. Do this and get it all one time. Specially since the subwoofers will need to integrate with the tv stand as well the speakers, as the space because of the hallway is not ideal.

One more note 100% sure I will be getting the daytons as my surrounds.

Thank you all!
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post #81 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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wvu80 -> No I thank you for the amount of info you are providing, it really is a HUGE help!!
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post #82 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 04:51 PM
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Smitty,

I didnt see in the thread, but are you planning on building the crossovers yourself? I only as because I am in a very similar boat and am purchasing 3 fusion-8's specifically because I can buy pre-built crossovers from Erich since I have never soldered anything in my life.
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post #83 of 92 Old 06-21-2014, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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ratm -> I may ask if he can assemble and I'll pay. How much was it?

Worse case I think I can do it... Can't be to hard.

I don't think we can go wrong with any of the fusion speakers.
With your C are you going to get the MTM or the MT? Will you lay it on the side? I'm wondering if I should get 3 fusion10 or just use a fusion4 as a C... I think Ill just get the fusion4 as C since with Music Ill just 2.1... Right now I use a PL preset that uses 5.1.. But if I have 2 great front ill just 2.1...

I'm def getting the daytons for surrounds. Doesnt make sense me paying for really good surround speakers when they do not contribute much to the source.
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post #84 of 92 Old 06-22-2014, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
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wvu80 -> I cant thank you enough for the help!

I think it is clear to say the fusion 10 is better in my case than the quad4, and the fusion12 would be even better but I can not afford... So I think I have to get the fusion10. Also it fits in a smaller cab, so that really helps...

I do want to ask though, how much better would the fusion10 be than the VOLT 8 and 10" models. I feel the fusion10 would be best because of the extra size of cab, port, waveguide and the bigger compression driver...

I was thinking if I should use the volt 8 or 10 for surrounds.... It would put me out of my budget... But I was thinking I need to make it worth it if I'm paying for the shipping and tax anyways...

Would this work well -> Fusion10 for L and R, fusion4 for C, volt 10 for surrounds (since price difference is almost nothing... Bigger better?

Only problem I see is the difference compression drivers from LR to C... Also I hate not being able to make out the dialog easily... Would it be a problem?

Ty!
Another forum member has a similar setup. Except he has Fusion 12s for the L and R and a Fusion 4 for the C with the Volt 10's (maybe 8s) for surrounds).

Again, the emphasize this, I don't think there are bad speakers listed on DIYSoundgroup. And from his replies to my question which was the same as yours, he said the Fusion 4 when used as a center channel keeps up fine with his Fusion 12s. And the Volts have gotten great remarks too as surrounds and he also likes them as well. I wish I could remember but hopefully he sees this or I find his username on anandtech.com again.

It'd work out great though if you did that.

Edit: Read more and see you're considering cheaper surrounds. You could do that I guess. I just like the Volt design but they are surrounds. Even my logitech Z-5500 speakers, the Surrounds got the job done there so ya that'd work. As for getting a DIY Sub? Well, I'm biased but I'd say yes? I mean, they're so capable it's hard to say no.

Last edited by tential; 06-22-2014 at 08:44 AM.
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post #85 of 92 Old 06-22-2014, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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tential -> Thanks for the input!!

Def going with the fusion4 as a C and fusion10 as my L and R.

I hear what your saying with the volts. If money was no object, I would DEF go with them, but I don't think paying almost $300 is worth it, when I can get the daytons for less than $40. I know the daytons will not compare but for just small surround effects in movies, it should do just fine.

You are correct, I feel ALL the waveguide and to be honest almost ALL the DIY are AMAZING value and great performance.

I'm 95% sure on 2 fusion10, 1 fusion4 and 2 dayton speakers. That way at a later date that saved money I will get a inuke or some kind of amp and run 2 subwoofers.

Let me know if I'm missing out on any deals or anything I have overlooked.

Thank you all!
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post #86 of 92 Old 06-22-2014, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
tential -> Thanks for the input!!

Def going with the fusion4 as a C and fusion10 as my L and R.

I hear what your saying with the volts. If money was no object, I would DEF go with them, but I don't think paying almost $300 is worth it, when I can get the daytons for less than $40. I know the daytons will not compare but for just small surround effects in movies, it should do just fine.

You are correct, I feel ALL the waveguide and to be honest almost ALL the DIY are AMAZING value and great performance.

I'm 95% sure on 2 fusion10, 1 fusion4 and 2 dayton speakers. That way at a later date that saved money I will get a inuke or some kind of amp and run 2 subwoofers.

Let me know if I'm missing out on any deals or anything I have overlooked.

Thank you all!
I think that's a great plan. PLEASE post back on how you like the Fusion 4 as a Center channel as I really want to do the same after hearing good things about it.

I agree with the Volts if money is no object get em but well, it usually is. I still will get the Volts though as surrounds. I like the way they look lol and I like the high sensitivity/output of them although they are a little more expensive now.
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post #87 of 92 Old 06-22-2014, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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tential -> Yea it is all trade-offs. For me I rather save the extra $250 bucks and that will buy my 18" subwoofer, then just need amp and cab. Also my surrounds will be close to listening position, and later I will probably sell build the actual surrounds... By then you never know, maybe the fusion10 will be surrounds :O

Hahahaha. But for this first project, hopefully I can keep everything at about $500 u.s. Then next year or 2 years ill build the 2 18" subwoofers. Then the last year change my surrounds or the mains and put mains as surrounds.

I may also just keep the SVS I have now, and make smaller subwoofers as speaker stands for the fusion10s... Never know.

I now see a Fusion10 KARMA and a fusion 10 pure, what is the difference?

Thanks
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post #88 of 92 Old 06-22-2014, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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tential -> I'm going to walk through the whole process with you guys. Then provide a full review. Answer any questions, provide measurements everything.

Besides I'm gonna need more help

I'm going to make a TV stand as well
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post #89 of 92 Old 06-22-2014, 04:56 PM
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You should get the quad 4. It looks cool.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #90 of 92 Old 06-22-2014, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Mfusick -> Your right the quad4 looks amazing!! and Ill have one

I think for my purposes the fusion10 is better for my L and R.
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