*help -> WAVEGUIDE speakers Fusion-10 Pure speaker kit and Eminence Delta 10A - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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*help -> WAVEGUIDE speakers Fusion-10 Pure speaker kit and Eminence Delta 10A

For those who do not know me here is a quick break down.

Requirements:
2-5 speakers
High SPL
Midbass chest punch
Amazing top end
Soundstage
flat F response
fill large space, with multiple openings
Can not be too big... CHECKING THEM on airplane!
Has to look decent....
Has to be upgrade from Martin Logan MTL2

I was going to build overnight sensations, then nexus mtm, then fusion 4... Debating the fusion8... But the fusion4 looks sooo much better and 4 4" drivers covers more area than an 8"... BUT

Now I see a Fusion-10.. And I'm tempted to just get 2 of those... Also a friend at work today big into car audio said he had 2 of the Eminence 8" mid woofers, and said it was amazing.. And the 10" will be even better... What quality level should I expect with the Eminence Delta 10A? That is another reason I like Dayton because I have used them before and they are amazing quality (referring to the quad4)

Anyways, what can I expect from these speakers? How would they compare to the quad4 and mainstream speakers. For example energy, klipsch, b&w, paradigm.

Thanks for all the help.

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post #2 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 07:40 AM
 
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These, and the fusion 8 meet all of your requirements perfectly. Either of these speakers will outperform mainstream speakers by a large margin.

These are slightly better than the fusion 8.
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post #3 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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JWagstaff ->Thanks bro, they will also outperform the quad4s by a large margin or small?

With your fusion8s can you feel the midbass kick? Will the fusion10s offer that?

Thanks!
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post #4 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 07:58 AM
 
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some, a lot of the punch comes from subs. 10" drivers will offer more punch than 8" though. Both are a decent upgrade over quad4's and both are many times better than your MTL2's.
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post #5 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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JWagstaff -> What are your fusions flat down to?

The punch in the chest is important to me.. If the fusion10 will not do it... I may just get the quad4...

what do you set your subwoofer crossover at? 80? 100? 40?

Will the voices and bass guitar sound louder and cleaner on the fusion10 vs. the fusion4? How much difference to justify the price and look factor?

Would the fusion10 compete with the top of the line klipsch speakers?

Thanks a lot, sorry for ALL the questions!
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post #6 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
JWagstaff -> What are your fusions flat down to?

The punch in the chest is important to me.. If the fusion10 will not do it... I may just get the quad4...

what do you set your subwoofer crossover at? 80? 100? 40?

Will the voices and bass guitar sound louder and cleaner on the fusion10 vs. the fusion4? How much difference to justify the price and look factor?

Would the fusion10 compete with the top of the line klipsch speakers?

Thanks a lot, sorry for ALL the questions!
I have 4 of the Delta 10A's in coaxial surround speakers. The 10's will offer lower bass extension by 20-30Hz compared to the 8's in the same enclosure. Go big or go home...

Mike

OOPS..I Lied. I have the Beta10CX, not the Delta 10A ---mea culpa

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post #7 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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mhutchins -> Thanks dude!

what do you cross them over at?
What would I use as a center and surrounds?
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post #8 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 06:05 PM
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mhutchins -> Thanks dude!

what do you cross them over at?
What would I use as a center and surrounds?
I cross them at 100Hz to limit cone excursion. With coaxials, low frequency cone movement (Bass) can cause distortion of the high frequencies emanating from the coaxial compression driver. In a ported enclosure, the 10's should easily extend down to 80Hz, maybe lower...
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post #9 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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mhutchins -> Please help explain something for me.

Why are the quad4 rated for lower frequency response? Will they actually dig deeper?

As well will the fusion10 play the frequencies it is designed to play better than the fusion4?

Will the fusion4 be lacking in the mid range?
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post #10 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post
These, and the fusion 8 meet all of your requirements perfectly. Either of these speakers will outperform mainstream speakers by a large margin.

These are slightly better than the fusion 8.
Who designed the crossover on the 10"

I know Jeff Bagby did a great job on the Fusion 8". Did he do the 10" too ?

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post #11 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
mhutchins -> Please help explain something for me.

Why are the quad4 rated for lower frequency response? Will they actually dig deeper?

As well will the fusion10 play the frequencies it is designed to play better than the fusion4?

Will the fusion4 be lacking in the mid range?
You don't need lower response below where your subwoofers play up to and your crossover at. So if one speaker has 70hz rating and another has 50hz rating, both will suffice the same with a subwoofer crossed at 80hz.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #12 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Mfusick -> But if the fusion4 can go lower in frequency wouldnt it play a higher frequency easier?

I do not think it is the same person who made both... Not sure though. I know his account is Tuxx something... on AVS

can you tell me how much SPL you hit at say 80hz? I want to make sure they can keep up with my subwoofer...
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post #13 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
Mfusick -> But if the fusion4 can go lower in frequency wouldnt it play a higher frequency easier?

I do not think it is the same person who made both... Not sure though. I know his account is Tuxx something... on AVS

can you tell me how much SPL you hit at say 80hz? I want to make sure they can keep up with my subwoofer...
Here are the spec sheets for the Delta 8A and 10A. The 10A can handle more power than the 8A, but otherwise the frequency response looks similar. Your best bet is to model the drivers in the intended enclosures with WinISD or something similar and see for yourself what to expect. It should make the choices easier.


Crap...Here are the links, instead. The files are too big with the new forum limits...
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_8A.pdf
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_10A.pdf

Mike
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post #14 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 07:52 PM
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Hi Smitty. I did the Fusion 10. I'll try to answer any questions.

I think the fusion 8 uses the Beta 8a. I didn't do that speaker though.

For midbass, the delta 10a does trade some bass extension for sensitivity. You can see the sensitivity difference between the Fusion 10 and quad 4 is significant. It does his 80hz no problem though. And does it with quite a bit of sensitivity. You also get a SEOS waveguide, instead of an EOS. Both are elliptical oblate shperoid but the super means it's even more elliptical (not as tall) as the EOS. And it's bigger (10 instead of 8). But it's also a wider speaker.

Make no mistake, all these speakers in this range don't offer the kind of midbass that will thump your chest hard without subs. You just need them.
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post #15 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 08:35 PM
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Fusion 10 Pure

I have the Fusion 10 Pures, they are the main L/R speakers in my living room (see the attached picture, below).

The Fusion 10 has a LOT of power. You will feel most of the mid-bass thump from your sub-woofers, but the sub reinforces the sound the 10" woofer puts out, making the woofers on the speaker sound really good.

I have run many test programs for 5.1 surround sound off youtube, including this one for instance, and the sound quality and loudness is incredible. With this 5.1 test, anything thing in the room not solidly attached will rattle, and the cushion I am sitting on in my living room couch will vibrate.

It will impress your friends, it will thump your chest, it will make your lovely new wife mad because she will complain that it is TOO LOUD!!!

The impressive thing about the sound is that it is totally clean, no distortion at anything close to ordinary loud levels, which means it doesn't hurt your ears like regular speakers would. I don't know how loud they really play, because I can't turn them all the way up and still stay in the same room.

If you could get three Fusion 10's for left/center/right speakers, I think you would be very happy for a long time.
+++

The new Fusion 10 will be slightly different from mine because they are the just about to be released version 2's. I have not heard the latest Fusion 10's, but I would expect them to sound 99% like mine, with the same woofer and DNA-205 compression driver.

Be sure to get the flat pack. I did a review of the flat pack on the DIY Soundgroup site. I checked the design of the new box, and frankly it has been improved and has more internal bracing.

If you have any more questions about the Fusion 10 sound or anything else, be sure to ask. I love mine!
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Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

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post #16 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 08:52 PM
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Fusion 10 Pure and Klipsch CF-4.

I recently picked up some huge Klipsch CF-4 speakers (110 pounds each), which are older, but still sound great. The Klipch originally sold for $2,500. I have listened to both side-by-side, and the Fusion 10 sounds just as good, just as clear, and sound just as good when both are played loud. The CF-4's have two 12" woofers and they can be used without a sub-woofer, but the Fusion 10's with a 12" sub-woofer sounds just as good, maybe better.

I took the SEOS wave guide and DNA-205 compression driver out of the Fusion 10 and plugged it into the Klipsch speaker. It sounded exactly the same, and probably better because the DNA-205/SEOS was more clear, less harsh of an upper sound.
+++

I assure you, that when used with a sub-woofer, the Fusion can keep up.
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Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice

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post #17 of 92 Old 06-18-2014, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
The new Fusion 10 will be slightly different from mine because they are the just about to be released version 2's. I have not heard the latest Fusion 10's, but I would expect them to sound 99% like mine, with the same woofer and DNA-205 compression driver.

Be sure to get the flat pack. I did a review of the flat pack on the DIY Soundgroup site. I checked the design of the new box, and frankly it has been improved and has more internal bracing.
Some could argue that the past version would be better because of the bigger waveguide. Tough call.

The old flat pack in yours is actually overkilled more than the new one. The new one is narrower, so I didn't see a reason for the vertical brace and simply made a second horizontal brace. The test box seemed fine and left room to put the crossover. The new box doesn't have the double thick baffle like yours because the woofer is only recessed about .3" deep like the waveguide. People that built the 1099 were using just one layer of MDF and everything sounded great. If it works with that one, it will work with the Fusion-10. Plus you're basically removing wood and replacing it with a metal woofer frame, so it's plenty strong. The double thick baffle on the old one was just way overkill.
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Hi Smitty. I did the Fusion 10.
Did you do the new one too? (uses the SEOS10 and 205 instead of the SEOS12 and 350/360, higher crossover too?). If so, any chance you could suggest a crossover tweak for inwall or baffle wall version?
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post #19 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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wvu80 -> Thanks!

Lost slightly... When does the new Fusion10 come out? Is the new Fusion10 going to be worse than the old one?

Am I correct? The new fusion10 uses the seos10 and 205, but the old one uses the seos12 and 350 or 360? Or is this regarding the fusion12... I'm lost clarify please...

When you say the trade off is bass for increase sensitivity, from 80hz and up the speaker will be almost perfectly flat?

Because the fusion4 uses multiple small drivers will it have problems playing the midbass at the same quality and SPL as the fusion10?

About how much more headroom will the fusion10 have compared to the quad4? Are they in totally different leagues? I only keep pushing this because I will only go to the fusion10 if they are at least double the performance or I do not feel it is worth it. Reason, fusion4 is almost half the price... So I would want at least double the performance, as well the look of the fusion4 is better so I feel the need for the fusion10 to be even better or it will be hard for me to justify.

What is the overall dimensions of the fusion10?

Thank you all!
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post #20 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 05:38 AM
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[QUOTE=Erich H;25084458]Some could argue that the past version would be better because of the bigger waveguide. Tough call.
Obviously I haven't heard the new one, but it shared enough of the components to make me confident it would sound very similar to mine.

The old flat pack in yours is actually overkilled more than the new one. The new one is narrower, so I didn't see a reason for the vertical brace and simply made a second horizontal brace.

The older 1.0 cuft box is solid! In the new design the horizontal brace goes all the way across, mine just has a 1x2" "spoke" in the middle. The new one looks more rigidly braced across the middle.

The test box seemed fine and left room to put the crossover (XO)

I split my XO into high pass and low pass, so they are on opposite walls. This is easy to do, easy to work with, and there should be NO cross talk from components. That slighter more narrow box should pose no problems for mounting the XO.

The new box doesn't have the double thick baffle like yours because the woofer is only recessed about .3" deep like the waveguide.

If you remember when I started this, I didn't even KNOW what a baffle was! I just figured the double-baffle was just part of your unique design.

People that built the 1099 were using just one layer of MDF and everything sounded great. If it works with that one, it will work with the Fusion-10. Plus you're basically removing wood and replacing it with a metal woofer frame, so it's plenty strong. The double thick baffle on the old one was just way overkill. [/QUOTE

I attribute part of the distortion-free sound to that great enclosure. The big Klipsch floorstanding speaker I compared the Fusion 10 to vibrates all over the place, and the sound "emanates" almost in a 360 degree bubble around it. It will buzz your hand touching it when played loud.

I can put my hand on the Fusion 10 and there is almost no vibration whatsoever, all the sound is generated almost exclusively from the front, not the top, back and sides. This solid design was perfect for my application because I had to put a "box in a box" because my wife wanted the speakers inside a TV console hutch. The console does not vibrate AT ALL even with the Fusion 10 playing loud.


I don't exactly remember what I paid, but I'm almost positive the new Fusion 10 flat pack is less expensive to buy than the old one! C'mon, what more could a person want?

Symmetry pleases the eye, but it usually offends the ears where low frequencies are concerned. -Yoda Fitzmaurice
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post #21 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
wvu80 -> Thanks!

Lost slightly... When does the new Fusion10 come out? Is the new Fusion10 going to be worse than the old one?

Am I correct? The new fusion10 uses the seos10 and 205, but the old one uses the seos12 and 350 or 360? Or is this regarding the fusion12... I'm lost clarify please...

When you say the trade off is bass for increase sensitivity, from 80hz and up the speaker will be almost perfectly flat?

Because the fusion4 uses multiple small drivers will it have problems playing the midbass at the same quality and SPL as the fusion10?

About how much more headroom will the fusion10 have compared to the quad4? Are they in totally different leagues? I only keep pushing this because I will only go to the fusion10 if they are at least double the performance or I do not feel it is worth it. Reason, fusion4 is almost half the price... So I would want at least double the performance, as well the look of the fusion4 is better so I feel the need for the fusion10 to be even better or it will be hard for me to justify.

What is the overall dimensions of the fusion10?

Thank you all!
12.5" wide x 20" tall x 12" deep (with 3/4" front baffle attached)
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-pa...flat-pack.html

I had not even seen the new design until yesterday. The Fusion 10 flatpack had been removed from the lineup for probably 6 months, so I was really happy to see it back. It has an important role in the Fusion line up, and is maybe the most versatile design because it makes a wonderful L/C/R that can be used in a living room.

Those other 12" and 15" designs take up a LOT of room. That is not a problem for large living rooms or dedicated home theaters, but would be a problem for many people like me with a smaller living room and a wife who hates the look of speakers in her living room.

When I got my Fusion 10, the 12" SEOS waveguide was really the only SEOS waveguide that was close to matching the woofer. The 12" SEOS was used with the 15", 12" and 10" woofers. The new Fusion 10 is better matched IMO with a 10" SEOS waveguide, the 10" woofer is the same. The old design required a larger box to accommodate the larger waveguide. The new Fusion 10 is the "right" size IMO, as the old one was very large, very heavy.

If you are thinking of getting these, I would suggest you email Erich as soon as possible to make sure you can get them while you are in the US. I have a feeling these are going to be hot sellers, especially at the lower price point, and there may be a high demand for them when he makes them available in the complete kit form.

I would also suggest you pose your questions about international shipping to Erich. He has some experience doing this and may be able to help you figure out the best way to get them back to your country.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post
JWagstaff -> What are your fusions flat down to?

The punch in the chest is important to me.. If the fusion10 will not do it... I may just get the quad4...

what do you set your subwoofer crossover at? 80? 100? 40?

Will the voices and bass guitar sound louder and cleaner on the fusion10 vs. the fusion4? How much difference to justify the price and look factor?

Would the fusion10 compete with the top of the line klipsch speakers?

Thanks a lot, sorry for ALL the questions!
subwoofer should pretty much always be crossed over at 80 hz, with any speaker. Like others have said, you need a sub to get real chest punch, but the fusion10 will give more than the fusion8 which will give more than the fusion4. In my opinion fusion10 will smoke most commercial klipsch, the highest end klipsch might be better, but they are in the $1000.00 price range.

Fusion10 will have better bass guitar sound than the fusion4. Not sure if you could tell the difference with voices, maybe just slightly better on fusion10 but not a huge difference I would guess.
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post #23 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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wvu80 & JWagstaff

Is there a major difference between the compression drivers? The 150 and the 205 I believe? The one in the fusion4 vs. the one in the fusion 10?

Is the fusion10 at least twice the speaker as the quad4?

I have a friend who is going to help me ship down the speakers... I do not think I can bring them on the plane... This is why I am deciding on the bigger speakers.

Thank you all for the amazing help!
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post #24 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 08:08 AM
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Go with 12" then!

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #25 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 08:21 AM
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Did you do the new one too? (uses the SEOS10 and 205 instead of the SEOS12 and 350/360, higher crossover too?).
Yes I did both. The Fusion Pure (uses DNA205), Fusion Max (used DNA350 but was redundant and pulled), and latest Fusion 10 (uses DNA205 on the SEOS10).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post
If so, any chance you could suggest a crossover tweak for inwall or baffle wall version?
For inwall I'd use the SEOS12 and a XO I've been using for over a year now. Sounds great. PM me if you're interested.

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Lost slightly... When does the new Fusion10 come out? Is the new Fusion10 going to be worse than the old one?
I'm not sure when it'll be listed. It's considered done, but I am trying to make a small change Erich asked me about. Erich may list it as is though.

It's not worse. It's just that the SEOS12 has some diffraction advantages. The new one does light up the edges of the SEOS10. The old one didn't. You'd never hear this. And the narrower width far exceeds that set back. If you want the big SEOS12 version, it can still be built.

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Am I correct? The new fusion10 uses the seos10 and 205, but the old one uses the seos12 and 350 or 360? Or is this regarding the fusion12... I'm lost clarify please...
As above. There are three models actually. SEOS12/DNA205. SEOS12/DNA350. SEOS10/DNA205. The last being the current model. The 350 model just didn't make sense. The 205 did everything it needed.

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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

When you say the trade off is bass for increase sensitivity, from 80hz and up the speaker will be almost perfectly flat?
From 80 and up the speaker is very flat. What I mean is that most people are used to 10" drivers making a lot of bass. Even some subwoofers are 10". But the delta10a trades bass EXTENSION for sensitivity. The output at 80hz is quite good.

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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

Because the fusion4 uses multiple small drivers will it have problems playing the midbass at the same quality and SPL as the fusion10?
The midbass capability would probably be a bit better on the Fursion 10. The Quad 4 seems to trade extension in favour of output. You could probably listen to the quad 4 without subs and be satisfied. The Fusion 10 however will want/need subs. So that's a major consideration to ponder. I don't know anything more about the quad4 than what's on the website though.

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About how much more headroom will the fusion10 have compared to the quad4? Are they in totally different leagues? I only keep pushing this because I will only go to the fusion10 if they are at least double the performance or I do not feel it is worth it. Reason, fusion4 is almost half the price... So I would want at least double the performance, as well the look of the fusion4 is better so I feel the need for the fusion10 to be even better or it will be hard for me to justify.
What you're saying here makes me wonder if you shouldn't go for the quad4. You seem budget and asthetic orientated and that might be the better choice. Is the Fusion 10 double the performance??? Bold to say but I believe it probably is. Way more sensitive, much better directivity, SEOS waveguide (low diffraction), better compression driver. There's a lot there. Perhaps the designer of the quad 4 could debate me on that, and I'd be quite ok with that. There are speakers much better than the Fusion 10. Like the 1099 But the quad 4 might still be the speaker for you.

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Originally Posted by Smittyfit View Post

What is the overall dimensions of the fusion10?
I think it was about 12.5" by 18" iirc. You'd wanna see what the website says if you need better accuracy than that.

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Is there a major difference between the compression drivers? The 150 and the 205 I believe? The one in the fusion4 vs. the one in the fusion 10?
Not major. The 205 can cross lower and is a bit smoother. It's really more about how they're used.

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Thank you all for the amazing help!
You're welcome. Hope what ever you pick is the right thing for you
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post #26 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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tuxedocivic -> the fusion10 that is on the site now, will that be the "new one"?

At the end of the day I'm pretty stuck between the Fusion10 and the fusion4...

The fusion12 is too big for me.. And too expensive.

I am DEF. 50/50 between the fusion4 and the fusion10.

However, if the fusion10 has a smoother, better sounding top end, and better midrange and midpunch... I will go with it... And it seems to be the case... However, if it will NOT be noticeable difference, I will just get the quad4....

The extension does not matter much for me as I run a SVS subwoofer, and at a later date (maybe after 2-3 years of saving) I will build some dayton ultimax 18" sub, or w.e they have best at that time...

That being said... Maybe I should use the fusion4 as a center and the fusion10s as the L and R?... but will they be timber matched for my movie playback? Would it be better to put a fusion 10 on its side for my center? I'm also now deciding if I should make my TV stand, so everything fit perfectly.... Also thinking I should make the TV stand at the bottom into a LARGE subwoofer.... But wont it vibrate everything?.... Hrmmmm...

If I get 3 fusion4s, rather than 3 fusion10 I could use the extra $$ to make a midbass subwoofer/regular subwoofer... Would that be a better use of my money?

You thinking the fusion10 is at least double the speaker, makes me really think i should just get the 10..

Also I notice a lot of ppl use the eminence woofer for bass guitar amps/leads/ concerts... I know the sensitivity is prob the main reason... But would it also be because it plays the notes perfect for those who need that for the amps/ practice?

Please all info.
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post #27 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
For inwall I'd use the SEOS12 and a XO I've been using for over a year now. Sounds great. PM me if you're interested.
Above my price point - it's the Fusion Max that uses the DNA350/360, and is around $250, right? I'm guessing this new Fusion 10 Pure will be around $180 or so? A secondary reason, is I much prefer the look of the SEOS10 with the 10" woofer. The SEOS12 just looks funny with the smaller woofer.

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post #28 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I can not use in-wall, I wish, but my walls are concrete
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post #29 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Erich H -> Would you say the Fusion10 is at least twice the speaker than the fusion4?

Could anyone give me an in depth analysis of the difference/ similarities I should expect?

I apologize for the amount of questions, and info I require, however, I just want to make sure I get the best for my money, as I'm on a tight budget.

Thank you ALL!!
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post #30 of 92 Old 06-19-2014, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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The Fusion10 says the frequency response is 55hz - 18khz +/-3db

Seems like it digs deeper than what I though... Also I though the highest range we could hear is 20 khz... Will I notice that bit of frequency missing?
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