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post #61 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 07:29 AM
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NICE!! Your stoked! How do you have them set up? What HPF are you using?
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post #62 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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^ Yes, I'm very happy! Was afraid that I would want two more, but when the eyes and nostrils literally shake when the bass hits I don't think there's merit to get more, lol. I might venture into room acoustics to build some diffusers and bass traps later on.

It's a hot day today so the energy level is at minimum, but I'm in the process of optimizing with LT as I've only used a shelf filter to boost the low end up until now. Also working out time delay and the best xover point going from 200 Hz and downwards. Also trying to run both subs summed (L+R) and individually. The job is only half way done.

I still have the high pass filter at 11 Hz with a 24 dB/oct rollof. The amp is set at 80V peak with 26 dB gain and the input is 4Vrms max, which enables me to safely play them very loud right now.

Would also like to thank everyone who has contributed to this project with their time and knowledge, I really appreciate that a lot. Will keep this thread updated with settings, measurements and the final result of how they will look when the finish is applied.

How are your subs working out, are they done yet?

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #63 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 11:53 AM
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Your impression make me very eager to get mine done! I am 100% ready for paint, just waiting for it to get delivered. I'm going the easy route and bought some Duratex. It was a hard decision, but I decided to go Duratex based on me having a 1 year old son, and the fact that I just want to be done! If I stay with the sealed setup I can always just sand the Duratex off and spray it matte black like I wanted to do, at a later date. Just sucks that I put so much time block sanding the boxes flat. Oh well.....they will at least sound good.

After paint I still need to run a couple dedicated lines for my amps. So I still have a little work to do.

I'll be waiting to see your in room response.
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post #64 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Great to hear that you're close to the finish line. I'm eager to hear what you think about the subs too. I'm very excited to get the EQ settings optimized for these enclosures as it makes a world of difference in the low end. A simple shelf filter works fine too, but the knowledgeable people always recommend LT.

Never heard of Duratex, as it's not on the market here in Norway. Will be using paint and simply roll it on. I've landed on the all matte black finish and black screw heads. Timeless and works with just about everything (as the subs will always stay, but other things are subject to change).

The setup looks untidy now as I had to remove the old furniture to get space for the subs up front , so got to get something to tidy up the setup a bit, hehe.

Will be posting room response as soon as I've optimized the EQ settings. Have had too much fun listening with sub par settings, haha.

You'll enjoy your subs. That's 100 % guaranteed. Just make sure you get to know their limits and push things further and further over time or get someone experienced to do set it up for you. Seriously, over many iterations of pushing the line with the first sub and now starting again with two in bigger enclosures, LMS-U continue to impress me greatly. People who get over here probably think I'm full of it and bragging, but I'm not: I didn't make these drivers, I'm just impressed as hell about how insane they perform and love for people to experience it. Jaws are dropping for sure, even for people who are not into these things at all..

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #65 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
Jaws are dropping for sure, even for people who are not into these things at all..
When I saw that 1 could do THIS to my house, and no other driver could, that's when I KNEW I had to have 4!

and the first time I heard 4, I felt like I was gonna puke, although it was also probably the 12 hours of extreme summer heat and 3 hours of continuous bass that were contributing factors.

and now I have even beyond that much bass! (Oh there is no hope for me... there really isn't )

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Last edited by BassThatHz; 07-24-2014 at 04:52 PM.
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post #66 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Felt like puke, you say? Hmmmm ....



LOL, no, have ... to ... reeesist

When I buy I've got to pay expensive shipping and 25 % VAT on top of the total,

Who knows what lies in the future, but I can't imagine getting anything but LMS Ultra 5400. And like you said in another thread: Why only buy two when you can have four for double the price?

Hahaha, I get that door rattling too, I've also put gaskets around the doors, but it's worse now that I'm running two, so I've got to go around listening for rattling sounds and secure everything within range of the room to eliminate sounds like that.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #67 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 06:34 PM
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When you buy multiples of the LMS 5400 you should give PE a call. They knocked quite a bit off the price for me. IIRC it was in the low $800s each with free shipping. Of course I'm in the US so YMMV especially with shipping.
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post #68 of 80 Old 07-24-2014, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Great advice, thanks! Paid full retail the first time, the second one was $100 off due to a coupon on > $1k orders (and I bought terminals, speaker wire etc too). If I'm getting two more, I'll surely call it in.

When I order from PE, I have them ship it to my freight forwarder in the US, so I get free shipping from PE to them, then I've got to pay sea freight (to Jetcarrier.com). Mentioning this if anyone else in Scandinavia would want to import these. It's much cheaper to do it this way, but you've got to be patient as it takes 5-6 weeks(!) from you pay PE until you've got the drivers.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #69 of 80 Old 07-25-2014, 12:22 AM
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I think you might be the only person in the whole of the EU that has a pair of ultras, or any ultras for that matter.

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post #70 of 80 Old 07-25-2014, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Hehe, wish I were, but I'm not. I heard one LMS Ultra 5400 when I traveled cross country to buy and pick up anders1234's Emotiva XPR-1 monoblocks here in Norway in September 2013. At the time he had a top loaded enclosure with the same dimensions as the closed one data bass used when measuring. Safe to say I was extremely impressed about it. We kept in touch and he urged me to build one, stating that nothing would be better and he had tried a lot in the past. He later burned the coil on that one, but now has two and are seriously contemplating getting four(!) more for a total of six to eliminate the danger of burning any coils again.

He also has the GJALLARHORN, but thought the response of the sealed enclosures sounded all around better, so he wants six sealed ones now. He also has a couple of BMS midbass drivers in ported enclosures to help his Klipsch Palladium P39F. I might ask him if I can come and demo his system when he has and are running all the drivers, it's a 16 hour drive both ways, but should be worth it as it will be extreme!

I've had a build thread in (my usual hangout which is) the Norwegian hifi forums alongside this, and it has gained some traction for these drivers and the Sanway clone amps. Hope that more people catch on to these drivers over here! It's the biggest upgrade in my system since replacing JBL 4430 with JBL 4343B. One day I'd like to build a pair of JBL 4350 or 4355. Those are kick ass and can play extremely loud.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #71 of 80 Old 07-27-2014, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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BassThatHz. Do you think it would be feasible to run 4 LMS-U in these large enclosures with one FP14k from Sanway? I would connect them in series which means 8 ohm load.

Anders and me are thinking about purchasing 6 drivers in bulk, which could mean a good price, but my pockets are shallow, hence it would be nice to drive all four out of one amp.

I've been experimenting with a cheap multimeter measuring the output voltage at the binding posts when playing 'The joy of minimal' by Dubking. I get afraid when I read ~45V on the meter, but there are no dimples in the surround, haha. I find this exercise to be frightening as hell, sweating like a pig, but I can't help but have an urge to maximize, lol.

A guy I've met in the Norwegian forums might lend me a stroboscope, which will enable me to set the strobe a little out of phase in relation to the sine wave played by the driver to see how far it travels in perceived slow motion with the naked eye. I can make 1080p video of the experiment and post it here later.

The Joy of minimal might not be the best way to look at excursion, sine waves probably are, but I'm afraid the same that happened to the guy who fried both his drivers (in smaller enclosures) could happen to me.

Is it safe to play short bursts of sine waves, like 10-15 seconds, in the 5-30 Hz range at high SPL to get some proper readings of the multimeter?

I have done some close range measurements, with and without EQ for one driver alone, here they are.

Close range (~60mm) FRP before and after EQ


Distortion without EQ


Distortion with EQ


Here are the EQ settings, as is obvious, a significant boost in the lows


I do have a HPF in place @ 11 Hz 24dB/oct for protection.
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DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400

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post #72 of 80 Old 07-28-2014, 01:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Mmmmm, that was fun, LOL!!



Mic 1m (~3ft) on axis away from one of the subs, but both playing. There were no dimples, but holy macaroni the doors went crazy, lol.

Edit: These SPL measurements are not valid, ref BassThatHz below.
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DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400

Last edited by GizzeGutten; 07-30-2014 at 10:23 PM.
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post #73 of 80 Old 07-28-2014, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Edit: These measurements are not valid, ref BassThatHz below.

Spent some hours trying to optimize the performance within the "risk free" range. A little redundant information here, but easier to follow for people reading.

Placed the micropone 1m on axis from one of the subwoofers, then I measured the voltage at the binding posts. Furthermore, I used the signal generator in REW and worked my way from 20 to 10 Hz to see how far I could push the driver before the dimples in the surround showed up. I didn't see any, but I believe it to be close considering the driver were pumping like there was no tomorrow

The way I did it was to play short intervals of each frequency, then measure the SPL, the voltage and in increments increasing the volume with MiniDSP 4x10 HD until I felt enough were enough. For each frequency I found the maximum volume I was comfortable with, then worked my way to that volume with the lower frequencies to see if the lower frequency could handle the same volume. When I had verified that, I played both woofers and recorded the SPL.

These are the results



Since the signal generator in REW does not go below 10 Hz and because I've got a 24dB/oct HPF @ 11 Hz, I stopped optimizing and checking for over excursion at 10 Hz. Don't know if this is a good idea or not, should probably try to see if there is any over excursion below 10 Hz.

119 dB @ 10 Hz 1m on axis from one sub is good imo, but would like to know what others think.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400

Last edited by GizzeGutten; 07-30-2014 at 10:22 PM.
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post #74 of 80 Old 07-29-2014, 01:15 AM
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There is no way you are getting those numbers. REW is lying to you. One will do somewhere around 95 to 105db @ 10hz, as per data-bass


Quad LMS 18's can do about 116db @ 10hz @ 2ft when they are all near max excursion (although with significant 90% 50hz harmonic distortion), which looks like this:

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post #75 of 80 Old 07-29-2014, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for pointing this out. With no prior reference to these kind of loudness levels in bass in addition to wearing double hearing protection while I was working with this I couldn't tell I was wrong. I did notice the whole house shaking like crazy @ 10 Hz with 65V applied though. It was even worse at around 15 Hz, the doors were going like mad.

My distortion figures are also off. There must have been something wrong with my setup yesterday, as it seem much more feasible today. Have no idea what the issue was.

Today I've been doing close range measurements of the system and eq'ed the response etc to integrate and optimize the system as a whole, and the payoff was significant. The bass in these boxes is just amazing. I can hardly believe how crazy it is, even at low levels. It goes so deep, it sounds so clean... Wow... When the low notes hit it's like seeing a naked girl for the first time, only better, lol.

I will hold off my purchase for more drivers until I've optimized these further, as there is still work to be done which will yield better sound, but wow guys, these subs are just amazing, amazing, amazing. If anyone wondering about building is reading this wondering if they should pull the trigger, stop wondering, just do it.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #76 of 80 Old 07-29-2014, 10:59 PM
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What SPL meter did you use to calibrate REW with?

Also, keep in mind it will likely be a C-weighted meter so if you are measuring a 20hz sinewave you have to add about 6db to the reading, but if you are measuring 60hz you won't have to add much of anything.


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post #77 of 80 Old 07-29-2014, 11:43 PM
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Here is what Zero to 10 subs sounds like.

0 subs, 0-16 seconds, 4000watts
2 subs, 16-26 seconds, 5600watts
4 subs, 26-41 seconds, 7200watts
6 subs, 41-57 seconds, 11200watts
7 subs, 57-1:02, 15200 watts
8 subs, 1:02-1:07, 19200 watts
9 subs, 1:07-1:10, 21300 watts
10 subs, 1:10-1:19, 23400 watts
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post #78 of 80 Old 07-30-2014, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
What SPL meter did you use to calibrate REW with?

Also, keep in mind it will likely be a C-weighted meter so if you are measuring a 20hz sinewave you have to add about 6db to the reading, but if you are measuring 60hz you won't have to add much of anything.

Thanks again! Got two microphones; firstly, it's the UMIK-1 from MiniDSP. This microphone has a usb iface and comes with a calibration file which is specific for that S/N. When I used the SPL meter in REW I were using Z-weighting. The microphone might not even be good for sub 20 Hz. What you think?

Didn't know the differences between the different weightings until you posted the charts, so read up on it now. Looks like Z weighted might be preferred since it should be linear down to 10 Hz +/- 1.5dB.

Also got a Check Mate CM-140 which there are correction files for out there. It also has line out and is coupled with an external sound card (for the laptop), which is a basic Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD.

I'm using UMIK-1 99 % of the time, because it's so convenient only having to plug it in through USB and REW finds and sets everything up auto. CM-140 is used for quick "portable" tests from seating positions, in corners, ...

I'll post new measurements here very soon, then I'll set both systems up and do C weighted readings. CM-140 doesn't do Z weighted, but UMIK-1 does, because MiniDSP recommend using it.

I'm also going to read up on the CEA2010 standards, bring one of the enclosures out and try to conform as much as practically possible to the standards to see how it really performs with no room gain. Could be fun, but the area is only semi rural and I need power, so it wont be 100 % open field.

The readings I made were probably far off, because in later measurements (not with sine waves) I'm not close. Will do new measurements with both mics and see if there are any differences.

What are you using to do SPL measurements? The software looks nice, and notice you're using the signal generator in REW too.

---------------

That video of the quad LMS @ 10 Hz was insane, and so were the incremental number of subs video, haha. When you hit all ten it was really big sounding, even though the playback was only done through my measly two pair of LMS-U I got the relativity of it, hahaha.

Got to ask, sorry, haha. You could obviously afford four, why not replace the other ones with more LMS-U? If not all at once, in increments, LOL.

That Fluke meter of yours is awesome, wish I could prioritize getting something like that, but would have to be 2nd hand and able to resell again at a minimum loss, because I see those are not cheap. I've actually mounted a webcam pointing at the cheap-o meter and run a live feed from the next room where the amp is at to see wth is going on when I play those sine waves. A fluke meter and one of those high precision laser measurement devices to log excursion would be awesome and make the job of optimizing the subs in any given enclosure for maximum performance a breeze (and probably a ton of fun too!).

Wonderful that you're making these videos and showing what a system like this can do. It really helps when pushing the limits in my own system.

---------------

Had a friend over who I've not seen for a few months. A couple of years ago (before he got a GF [lol]) he used to have Klipsch RF7, McIntosh MA7000 and SVS PB13Ultra. The system played very well, but when he heard this today, he immediately said he had never heard such awesome quality bass his entire life. He spent six-seven hours here, a lot listening, and he thoroughly enjoyed it. Hope to have placed a seed to get him back into it, haha. He surely looked happy, getting goose bumps etc (I did too). Nothing like a couple of guys sitting getting goose bumps together, LOL.

What gets me every time is not just the sheer quantity of bass, but the quality. With this tight grip and excellent quality at loud SPL it is just so perfect it almost sounds unreal to be present in the room. It's impossible to convey it through words, it's much like Anders has told me, you've got to experience it to know what it's about.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #79 of 80 Old 07-31-2014, 04:07 AM
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The umik is -3db @ 9hz, so it should be fine.

The first thing I need is air conditioning.
Adding more subs is fairly low on my priority list. I'm nearly at 20 subs as-is, and going beyond that isn't really practical anymore. (I need a bigger theater in a rural underground bunker setting for that!!! LOL)

Then I need to finish the exterior wall, and then I need to add more watts and power distribution for the subs that I already have (under powered), moving from 35,000watts to 80,000watts here soon-ish.
Then the 20 subs will have the power they need.

and then I need to finish the amp rack room. Then I need seating.
Then it will be near-done.

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BassThatHz is online now  
post #80 of 80 Old 07-31-2014, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The umik is -3db @ 9hz, so it should be fine.

The first thing I need is air conditioning.
Adding more subs is fairly low on my priority list. I'm nearly at 20 subs as-is, and going beyond that isn't really practical anymore. (I need a bigger theater in a rural underground bunker setting for that!!! LOL)

Then I need to finish the exterior wall, and then I need to add more watts and power distribution for the subs that I already have (under powered), moving from 35,000watts to 80,000watts here soon-ish.
Then the 20 subs will have the power they need.

and then I need to finish the amp rack room. Then I need seating.
Then it will be near-done.
Sounds like you have a good plan, but was not thinking about adding more, but rather replace some of them with more LMS-U, hehe.

Air conditioning, won't that increase the noise floor? Want aircon myself, but due to the increased noisefloor, I'm not so sure.

Going to get a server rack for the amps myself. Would be nice to keep most electronics out of the room and way, that will make the temperature lower in and of itself. I'm sure the subs are raising the temp too, but got to keep those in the room, haha.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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