Design Challenge - Ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 260 Old 06-25-2014, 07:10 PM
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I think you can be pretty sure that there won't be a model number you can copy down and just order a few of. Of course, if you're adept at examining drivers (as I know some of you are) you can probably learn a lot even without a retail model number.


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post #62 of 260 Old 06-25-2014, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I think you can be pretty sure that there won't be a model number you can copy down and just order a few of. Of course, if you're adept at examining drivers (as I know some of you are) you can probably learn a lot even without a retail model number.
I bet there is.
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post #63 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 06:41 AM
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Here ya go

http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_8cn552

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post #64 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 07:04 AM
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You're saying JTR's speaker (slant 8?) is completely buildable with off the shelf parts? That's surprising.
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post #65 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 07:14 AM
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I wouldn't be surprised.

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post #66 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
I think we need to take our design clues from quality inwall speakers, How do you get great sound in 3 1/2 inches? Or 6 like the Triads.
Procella has a new in-wall version, the P6iw, which fits in a standard depth stud bay, has a sealed back box, and is specifically designed for this type of application. I'll be using a pair for each row of seating for a total of four. I'll also be making double drywall / Green Glue back boxes for all of the speakers to maintain the soundproof shell, despite the sealed back box this speaker comes with.

Here's a quote from their Press Release:

Quote:
The constant directivity waveguide produces a circular radiation pattern of 80 degrees
above 2KHz, enabling integrators to achieve excellent performance with the speaker
mounted in either a vertical or horizontal orientation. Further, this ensures a high level of
performance when the speaker is ceiling mounted, whether for conventional surround,
main channel applications, or 3D Audio system height channels, where playback level
requirements may exceed the ability of conventional in-wall designs
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post #67 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 07:43 AM
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You're saying JTR's speaker (slant 8?) is completely buildable with off the shelf parts? That's surprising.
Why is it surprising that the drive-units are off-the-peg parts? I doubt he has the quantities required for bespoke drivers.

Now, if the complete crossover were also an off-the-peg part, that would surprise (and disappoint). But since resistors, capacitors, and inductors are generally stored on shelves, yes one could technically call the crossovers "completely buildable with off the shelf parts, too"

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post #68 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
You're saying JTR's speaker (slant 8?) is completely buildable with off the shelf parts? That's surprising.
It's JTR's crossover work that is certainly NOT off the shelf, the driver(s) most certainly are. Just about every speaker you see out there has off the shelf parts, even the Triad platinums use drivers you can source. The midranges are scanspeak revelators. In the seaton catalyst, the coax is the B&C 8cxt, which you can grab right from PartsExpress. The JTR noesis and now 215T uses the BMS 4593 coaxial CD, also widely available.

Some designers get the manu's to change certain aspects of the driver to make it "proprietary" but the change is usually very minimal. It is in the crossover work, the heart of the speaker, where designers set themselves apart from the average joe.

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post #69 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 09:00 AM
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I just suspected that since the black market could easily copy the crossover, the only security comes from a driver that the supplier won't sell to other OEMs or to the public. That leaves JTR only covered by US patent law (where applicable) and the ethics of the general public.
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post #70 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I just suspected that since the black market could easily copy the crossover, the only security comes from a driver that the supplier won't sell to other OEMs or to the public. That leaves JTR only covered by US patent law (where applicable) and the ethics of the general public.
That's interesting point. Makes you wonder why there aren't more White Van versions of high-end loudspeakers.

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post #71 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 09:13 AM
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That's interesting point. Makes you wonder why there aren't more White Van versions of high-end loudspeakers.
Because there's no money in it.
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post #72 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
That's interesting point. Makes you wonder why there aren't more White Van versions of high-end loudspeakers.
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Because there's no money in it.
Correct. They would have to sell the copy for the same price as an original to be profitable and people looking at white van speakers are not going to pay that kind of price.

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post #73 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 09:29 AM
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Because there's no money in it.
Don't know about that. The Chinese knockoff amplifiers seem to sell.

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post #74 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 09:45 AM
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@BIGmouthinDC - here's a professional speaker from Digital Media Solutions (parent company of Storm Audio) that is surface-mounted. Unfortunately since it is a commercial unit, it's also 14" tall: http://www.dms-cinema.com/en/product...-overhead.html

Legacy Audio makes a similar scaled-down version of the overhead array speaker that looks interesting, but still tops out at 8.86" in height: http://www.legacyaudio.com/products/...verhead-array/

I'm not so sure that for a single overhead / VOG speaker solution you could get much lower profile than the Legacy's 9" while still having a speaker that can dig low enough for effective crossover.

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post #75 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 09:50 AM
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Don't know about that. The Chinese knockoff amplifiers seem to sell.

The JTR speakers do not have the mark up of the amps that you are talking about. People already know the drivers used in the JTR speakers and have researched this. Not a huge savings, DIY of these speakers.
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post #76 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 10:08 AM
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The other trouble is for folks willing to DIY there might even be better options or easier options too. Once you go DIY you open up possibilities. Most people that buy mfg just don't want to DIY. Different people.

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post #77 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 10:18 AM
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Don't know about that. The Chinese knockoff amplifiers seem to sell.
Look at the BOM for one of the counterfeit amplifiers* and then compare the price of good drive-units and crossover parts to the price of finished speakers.

*speaking of which, I'm really surprised AVS hasn't deleted threads about counterfeit parts.

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post #78 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 10:35 AM
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Look at the BOM for one of the counterfeit amplifiers (speaking of which, I'm really surprised AVS hasn't deleted threads about counterfeit parts) and then compare the price of good drive-units and crossover parts to the price of finished speakers.
Yeah I know.
Spoiler!


Maybe I should duck?
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post #79 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 11:21 AM
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Bye Scott!
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post #80 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 12:20 PM
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point source!


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post #81 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post
Don't know about that. The Chinese knockoff amplifiers seem to sell.
Chinese "clone" amplifiers are only clones in looks and general circuit design. The difference, and the reason they sell, is that the components themselves in the amps are cheaper quality (and cost) from lesser manufacturers compared to the components in a genuine LG unit and therefore can still be sold at a profit.
With the speaker comparison, as others have said, the JTR uses a BMS driver that is expensive and is not available in a cheap knock-off version. Making a "white van" version would still require the expensive BMS driver which would nullify any street corner profits.

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Look at the BOM for one of the counterfeit amplifiers* and then compare the price of good drive-units and crossover parts to the price of finished speakers.
Exactly!
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post #82 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 01:24 PM
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Actually, you want a cheaper alternative, look to the zu audio cube. About half the price, but doesn't use the BMS at all, looks more like the EMmy, with a shiny mounting ring attached to it.

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post #83 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 01:39 PM
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Well the bms is expensive that's for sure. After looking up the price I'm impressed with the price we are able to get completed speakers from Jeff at.
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post #84 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 01:41 PM
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point source!
So this wouldn't be a good option for tops? What would be the proper type of speaker?

These will not be far off angle in the top alignment is why I am curious.
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post #85 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 01:50 PM
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No, they would be great! 90 degree dispersion pattern which will toss a nice sound field to multiple seating, in all directions...
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post #86 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 02:04 PM
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So this wouldn't be a good option for tops? What would be the proper type of speaker?

These will not be far off angle in the top alignment is why I am curious.
Coax all around would be perfect.


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post #87 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 02:25 PM
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You're saying JTR's speaker (slant 8?) is completely buildable with off the shelf parts? That's surprising.
From Jeff a few years ago:

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I'm using BMS compression drivers and the Single 8HT/Slanted 8HT is using a custom variation of the BMS 8CN552. All other drivers are fully custom built to JTR's specs.
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post #88 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 02:32 PM
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No, they would be great! 90 degree dispersion pattern which will toss a nice sound field to multiple seating, in all directions...
Ok. That's what I thought but misunderstood your post.
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post #89 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 03:57 PM
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If you had the height; would it sound reasonably close (since we're already getting atmos light in the home) if you did something like the volt10's angled steeply and mounted at the wall/ceiling intersection. Don't want to mess up the star ceiling.
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post #90 of 260 Old 06-26-2014, 04:32 PM
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From Jeff a few years ago: Posted by Jeff Permanian
"I'm using BMS compression drivers and the Single 8HT/Slanted 8HT is using a custom variation of the BMS 8CN552. All other drivers are fully custom built to JTR's specs."
That's more like it. Thanks.


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