Any problems mixing a bass horn with sealed subs? Better or worse than ported ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool Any problems mixing a bass horn with sealed subs? Better or worse than ported ?

I'm designing my theater and playing around with different design ideas and one clever idea I have is to make a couple monster bass horns out of my second row riser.

My theater will be big. 36 feet long by 25 feet wide, it's also going to have a good height ceiling. I'm worried about SPL and output in such a big room. Ideally I'd like SPL and extension but if I have to choose first I'd choose SPL. This has me looking at ported and horns.

The trouble I'm having is understanding how the different types would mix. My original idea was to build 4 ported subs and port them really low (11hz-13hz) and then perhaps a couple bass horns with good output down to 25hz. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than doing a few sealed with a horns.

What do you think would mix better in my big room? Worth chasing this idea or should I abandon it? I like the output and efficiency and low distortion of a horn I think but I also want some extensions low too. I don't need 120db at 10hz but I'd like 100db or at least reference flat to 8hz. But I'd also like more output in the 25hz-90hz regions for parties and music. Can I get both in a huge room on a reasonable budget?

I have no doubt I'll add more subs and chase this hobby for a decade but the project is already growing out of control so I think I need to start with something that has good bang for the buck and then build on that. The horn riser was an idea. I don't mind a hard build or something that's takes up a lot of space or uses lots of wood. Seems like a horn would be ideal but how do I add more extension and keep killer SPL ?

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post #2 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 05:01 PM
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What about an infinite baffle? You can build a wall up front and make one big sealed enclosure sort of like what mktheater has.
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post #3 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 05:07 PM
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Hopefully for you Subguy chimes in.

He has a pair of UXL's for less than 30 Hz frequencies and use JTR Orbital Shifter above 20 Hz. Could be wrong on exactly frequencies on his integration scheme, but I'm close.
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post #4 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 05:12 PM
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I have had a large degree of success with horns and sealed subs. I have mixed a DTS-10 and two sealed subs as well as a LOWARHORN and two sealed subs. Is it optimal, probably not 100%..but it's damn good!
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post #5 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post
What about an infinite baffle? You can build a wall up front and make one big sealed enclosure sort of like what mktheater has.
Not loud enough. Would need 80 drivers and 40 amplifiers.

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post #6 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post
I have had a large degree of success with horns and sealed subs. I have mixed a DTS-10 and two sealed subs as well as a LOWARHORN and two sealed subs. Is it optimal, probably not 100%..but it's damn good!
Thanks for the feedback! This is what I'm looking for.

I'd like to understand the issues from a theoretical perspective and get a solid design plan before I try anything or just wing it.

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post #7 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Hopefully for you Subguy chimes in.

He has a pair of UXL's for less than 30 Hz frequencies and use JTR Orbital Shifter above 20 Hz. Could be wrong on exactly frequencies on his integration scheme, but I'm close.

I know that ported changes phase near port tune so I'm trying to figure out if my crazy idea is feasible or not. Perhaps if the frequencies didn't directly overlap ?

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post #8 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Not loud enough. Would need 80 drivers and 40 amplifiers.
Or just 20 of these and just one clone amp

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...oofer--295-455

Curious if anyone has tried the Dayton IB drivers?
100 bucks each means one could do some serious damage with multiples.
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post #9 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I know that ported changes phase near port tune so I'm trying to figure out if my crazy idea is feasible or not. Perhaps if the frequencies didn't directly overlap ?
I overlap mine from 13-80 Hz, sometimes 13-60...all covering the same range.

If I had the room, I would rather have two LOWARHORNS and no sealed.


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post #10 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'm designing my theater and playing around with different design ideas and one clever idea I have is to make a couple monster bass horns out of my second row riser.

My theater will be big. 36 feet long by 25 feet wide, it's also going to have a good height ceiling. I'm worried about SPL and output in such a big room. Ideally I'd like SPL and extension but if I have to choose first I'd choose SPL. This has me looking at ported and horns.

The trouble I'm having is understanding how the different types would mix. My original idea was to build 4 ported subs and port them really low (11hz-13hz) and then perhaps a couple bass horns with good output down to 25hz. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than doing a few sealed with a horns.

What do you think would mix better in my big room? Worth chasing this idea or should I abandon it? I like the output and efficiency and low distortion of a horn I think but I also want some extensions low too. I don't need 120db at 10hz but I'd like 100db or at least reference flat to 8hz. But I'd also like more output in the 25hz-90hz regions for parties and music. Can I get both in a huge room on a reasonable budget?

I have no doubt I'll add more subs and chase this hobby for a decade but the project is already growing out of control so I think I need to start with something that has good bang for the buck and then build on that. The horn riser was an idea. I don't mind a hard build or something that's takes up a lot of space or uses lots of wood. Seems like a horn would be ideal but how do I add more extension and keep killer SPL ?
just build like 4 ghorns and be done
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post #11 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsnasty View Post
Or just 20 of these and just one clone amp

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...oofer--295-455

Curious if anyone has tried the Dayton IB drivers?
100 bucks each means one could do some serious damage with multiples.
I'm not sure those would get me the SPL I want. In my big room it might not...

Even 20 isn't exactly very loud. It's less than one monster horn. But the extension would be good.

Would 20 of those be louder than 4 uxl18" in ported boxes for same cost? Even if I ported at 13hz I think the output would be more and extension would be good as well. I don't think I have space for IB either. There is no place for them. I don't have an attic and the garage is below.

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post #12 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 06:15 PM
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Ya, I would start with two GHorns and add two more if necessary, or two Othorns and not worry about the < 15Hz.

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post #13 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'm not sure those would get me the SPL I want. In my big room it might not...

Even 20 isn't exactly very loud. It's less than one monster horn. But the extension would be good.

Would 20 of those be louder than 4 uxl18" in ported boxes for same cost? Even if I ported at 13hz I think the output would be more and extension would be good as well. I don't think I have space for IB either. There is no place for them. I don't have an attic and the garage is below.
Without simming I'd say it'd be pretty close.
Echoing what guys are saying about the Ghorns.
4 UXL loaded Ghorns with a few good amps is real good extension and SPL.
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post #14 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Why specifically a ghorn?

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post #15 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 07:38 AM
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There's a dedicated theater build where DE integrated 1or 2 DTS-10s with some sealed subs. I think it was Bonedocs build, but can't remember for sure. I believe Dennis was impressed when it was done, but I don't know if it's a task for the DIY crowd or not. I'm interested in what you find out, though. I've been chewing on the same problem for a while.
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post #16 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd like to read about that. Link ?

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post #17 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 09:01 AM
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Just go with one big front loaded horn in your riser. If you can get it >24 ft long with >12Ft^2 mouth, facing the lower seating area. just a few watts will fill the room and then some, with the cleanest bass and LFE you have ever heard. you will not want any ported or sealed boxes as they sound like mud in comparison.
I think mark recently built a riser that was esentially two of these
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...subwoofer.html
However jeffery jackson recomends a bigger single horn, which is what I did.

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post #18 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 09:01 AM
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I think this is the thread. I didn't have time to read through, but it's fairly short.

The "KC Cinema"

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post #19 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link. Horns definitely intrigue me. I know they are hard to build and design but the bass just seems superior, the output is so awesome and clean and you don't need a ton of wattage either.

The only problem is I might at some point want to add subs down the road for more, and also more extension. I would hate to paint myself into a corner or be limited in future designs so I would like to know what I am getting into up front.

I have been playing around with hornresp and it's a learning curve to say the least.

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post #20 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 12:09 PM
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"horns are hard to build"

you may pardon my noobishistic foolishness wrt to some of the advanced thinking that abounds in this thread but as a simpleton wrt to being able to follow instructions, after viewing many designs and possibilities for sub builds, the structural beauty and integrity/simplicity of the "lowarhorn" and the "submaximus" should make any semi-experienced builder (and a lazy man at that) recognize a good thing when he sees it.
especially when you have the data that shows the possibilities.
if you have the room for placement(options) and the patience and resources for the EQ and if you want to and can go BIG and get one heck of a sub "fix", with no regrets, a feeling of no compromises and "dero zefects" well...
just my .02
If you lived in OC, I'd help build one (MAX) just for the h3ll of it.
now from another thread, what about ? those rotary plans . . .

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post #21 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 12:44 PM
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I'm leaning heavily towards horns as well. I don't think I've got quite the space you do, but I think I've got room for three, and from what I've read that should be more than I'll ever need. I may want more, but I think three will give more output than anyone else in my family will tolerate.

From looking at some of the horn builds like the F20, the lil-wrecker, etc., I didn't come away thinking they would be overly complex to build. Just some time cutting, lots of clamps and glue. This was actually part of the justification for buying the track saw to make sure I could get straight cuts. Of course, if the DTS-10 goes on sale again, and I'm in a position where I can afford it, I'll probably jump on a pair of those.

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post #22 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 12:48 PM
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Bass horns are easy

IMH experience, A big front loaded bass horn in a home theater riser is a much, much easier design/build than multiple sealed/ ported enclosures. With a payoff that is hard to describe.
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post #23 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
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IMH experience, A big front loaded bass horn in a home theater riser is a much, much easier design/build than multiple sealed/ ported enclosures. With a payoff that is hard to describe.
Wat.

no.. just no..

ported enclosures are far simpler builds than horns. Fitting a horn into a riser to meet specs for the riser and for a horn is far more complicated, far more cuts, a much longer build, and limits your placement options and interaction with the room.

Horns are cool if you're on a budget. Otherwise, cubic foot to cubic foot, you can stuff more drivers into a ported enclosure and match a horn without any of the drawbacks and have more extension.

I've built plenty of enclosures.. sealed, ported, horns... horns are much more of a pain. And as for personal taste, I think ported sounds the best.

This forum goes through trends based on what they see other people doing, or if a cheap build option becomes available its suddenly the greatest thing.
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post #24 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
you may pardon my noobishistic foolishness wrt to some of the advanced thinking that abounds in this thread but as a simpleton wrt to being able to follow instructions, after viewing many designs and possibilities for sub builds, the structural beauty and integrity/simplicity of the "lowarhorn" and the "submaximus" should make any semi-experienced builder (and a lazy man at that) recognize a good thing when he sees it.
especially when you have the data that shows the possibilities.
if you have the room for placement(options) and the patience and resources for the EQ and if you want to and can go BIG and get one heck of a sub "fix", with no regrets, a feeling of no compromises and "dero zefects" well...
just my .02
If you lived in OC, I'd help build one (MAX) just for the h3ll of it.
now from another thread, what about ? those rotary plans . . .
Really? If it was a simple build why did it take an entire month? It also seems like it didn't measure as well as it modeled. I see some huge dropouts when doing reference sweeps too. It's a great build, but I think you're sipping the koolaid a little hard there. A ported enclosure of that size would get more output down low. It would cost more, but you'd have a smoother response and more output on the bottom.
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post #25 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
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Wat.

no.. just no..

ported enclosures are far simpler builds than horns. Fitting a horn into a riser to meet specs for the riser and for a horn is far more complicated, far more cuts, a much longer build, and limits your placement options and interaction with the room.

Horns are cool if you're on a budget. Otherwise, cubic foot to cubic foot, you can stuff more drivers into a ported enclosure and match a horn without any of the drawbacks and have more extension.

I've built plenty of enclosures.. sealed, ported, horns... horns are much more of a pain. And as for personal taste, I think ported sounds the best.

This forum goes through trends based on what they see other people doing, or if a cheap build option becomes available its suddenly the greatest thing.
Horns are hard to design, but not that hard to build.

Front loaded horns have lower distortion and higher sensitivity than sealed or ported.

You can wall load or corner load a horn for extra gain.
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post #26 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 05:09 PM
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Horns are hard to design, but not that hard to build.

Front loaded horns have lower distortion and higher sensitivity than sealed or ported.

You can wall load or corner load a horn for extra gain.
You can corner load any speaker for extra gain.

It's hoffmans iron law. You're sacrificing space for output. If extension is important to you, you'll get more output and more extension down low with a ported enclosure with more drivers in the same space as a horn. Horns are good if you want to save money, or don't have the power available for other types of setups. Build time for a horn is 2-4x longer than a ported or sealed box from my experience.
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post #27 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Does a horn blend better with ported or sealed ? Is there phase issues ? Or time correction needed ?

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post #28 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
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Does a horn blend better with ported or sealed ? Is there phase issues ? Or time correction needed ?
Uhm, it depends on the ported or sealed enclosure and where you're crossing it.

Trying to mix with a horn is going to give you more issues than phase. Horns will give you plenty of output higher up, but you won't be able to match that output on the low end. I don't see the purpose to mixing really. Just my $0.02. A front loaded horn's rising response is generally wasted if you want even response down low. A tapped horn would be better in this case, but then you end up losing some bandwidth up top. This is why I just went with large ported enclosures with more drivers. Nice even and smooth response across the frequency range. It was basically flat in room, barely any eq needed. It cost a few bucks more since more drivers are needed, but smooth response and simple build. I obviously don't have budget or space limitations here, it just made the most logical sense after reviewing all the options.
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post #29 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
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Does a horn blend better with ported or sealed ? Is there phase issues ? Or time correction needed ?
when I had two horns I was blending them with two different sealed subs using a minidsp 2x4 setup. It wasn't perfect but by playing with the XO types I was able to minimize negative effects on the FR caused by phase differences. In the end though I decided to add a third horn to replace the sealed subs and I do like it better. My horns need about 14ft of distance added to their physical location to dial them in. Different horns have different path lengths, best to use measurements to determine amount of distance needed.
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post #30 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 05:34 PM
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Mike - I'm not an expert here by any means (total noob to horns), but I did some googling.

It looks like within the passband, horns are generally phase linear-ish, at least as much as ported subs are. The horn will have a different overall group delay compared to a ported box, but that doesn't really matter. Every sub, no matter the alignment, will need a delay setting.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...aded-horn.html It looks like both ported and horn alignments result in a significant phase shift at or near the tuning frequency. So, IMO, any problem you would have integrating a ported sub with sealed would be duplicated with a horn and sealed.

Edit: more reading for details - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...ented-box.html

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