Comparison of Different Horn Subs? - AVS Forum
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Old 06-28-2014, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Comparison of Different Horn Subs?

Is there a thread with a comparison of the different DIY horn subs? I'm somewhat familiar with lilMike's subs, but not familiar enough to choose one over the other for a given application. It seems the more I read, the less I understand.

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Old 06-28-2014, 04:38 PM
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some thoughts


what is your budget, room shape/size/volume/sealed/dedicated, listening/viewing preferences, SPL/ULF desires, placement options for multiples? /power availability, family factors/ ATMOS bound?/other speakers, layout/AVR/EQ/ willingness to go the REW route?


your set up is YOUR set-up so spec this out wrt your possibilities


check the "submaximus" thread, post 439 , its my sub and mains after some REW and Inuke back and forth.
I like the green one . . .


there are other sources for nominally comparative insights wrt to differenet types of set ups/applications. to include HTS, Audioholics, Blu Ray.com.,


The resident brain trust on this thread (NOT me) is listening . . .


go on . . .

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Old 06-28-2014, 04:59 PM
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JPA thinking of horns?

Good decision........do you have enough room?

I'm sold on horns after I had a listen to a pair of JTR Orbital Shifters. My only two issues are size, and digging down low. Search for G-Horn.........it's supposedly the best of both world's.......digs deep with huge SPL! Draw back is SIZE........cab is HUGE!!

Load with UXL and you are good to go........Ulta would be the ticket though.
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Old 06-28-2014, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I've been considering horns for a while. My screen wall is about 30" from the front wall, and I have an odd section in the back that will be behind another false wall that is about 30" deep by 11' wide. So I figure I can get a couple horns up front and at least one in the back as well. I've decided to opt out of the single digit FR race, so I'm hoping to find something with respectable output down to 15 Hz, but really pour it on 20 Hz and up.

The G-horn certainly looks interesting, but I'd like to find something with a cheaper driver. Is there UXL driver still available?
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Old 06-28-2014, 05:17 PM
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recent emails from those folks said mid july availability for the uxl-18

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Old 06-28-2014, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
some thoughts


what is your budget, room shape/size/volume/sealed/dedicated, listening/viewing preferences, SPL/ULF desires, placement options for multiples? /power availability, family factors/ ATMOS bound?/other speakers, layout/AVR/EQ/ willingness to go the REW route?


your set up is YOUR set-up so spec this out wrt your possibilities


check the "submaximus" thread, post 439 , its my sub and mains after some REW and Inuke back and forth.
I like the green one . . .


there are other sources for nominally comparative insights wrt to differenet types of set ups/applications. to include HTS, Audioholics, Blu Ray.com.,


The resident brain trust on this thread (NOT me) is listening . . .


go on . . .
I'd missed this horn somehow. This brings up part of my issue, though. So far, I haven't been able to devote the time I'd like to in order to really get a handle on the pros and cons of all the available DIY options. For example, here's what I'm hoping to get out of a horn.
  • Output down to 15 Hz or so. If I can get a huge step up in output and sacrifice a little on the low end, I'd be willing to do that as long as I get good output into high teens.
  • Relatively cheap. I've settled on horns as a cheaper alternative to multiple sealed because there are horn designs with cheaper drivers and the amplification requirements are lower in comparison as well. I'd rather not spend lots of money on a driver AND use up a lot of space with a horn AND need large amps.
  • Something I can fit in less than 30"

A few candidates come to mind, the previously mentioned G-horn (I can't spell the whole name), lilwrecker, microwrecker, and the F20. From what I understand the driver for the G-horn is nearly $1,000. That doesn't really qualify as cheap for me. IIRC, the F20 drops off pretty sharply below 20 Hz, which may be okay, but is there a better alternative that lets me keep the output and the bottom end?

If I understand correctly, the lilwrecker and micro wrecker will dig below 20 Hz, but I can't find much on the microwrecker, so I don't really know how they compare.

Beyond that, I'm not sure just how much output I need for a 4,500 c.f. room?

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Old 06-28-2014, 06:21 PM
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An 8 x 11 x 2.5 foot volume could make a nice horn ~30 foot long with an f3 ~12 Hz at >110db/watt
A quick sketch is attached.
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Old 06-28-2014, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I'd missed this horn somehow. This brings up part of my issue, though. So far, I haven't been able to devote the time I'd like to in order to really get a handle on the pros and cons of all the available DIY options. For example, here's what I'm hoping to get out of a horn.
  • Output down to 15 Hz or so. If I can get a huge step up in output and sacrifice a little on the low end, I'd be willing to do that as long as I get good output into high teens.
  • Relatively cheap. I've settled on horns as a cheaper alternative to multiple sealed because there are horn designs with cheaper drivers and the amplification requirements are lower in comparison as well. I'd rather not spend lots of money on a driver AND use up a lot of space with a horn AND need large amps.
  • Something I can fit in less than 30"

A few candidates come to mind, the previously mentioned G-horn (I can't spell the whole name), lilwrecker, microwrecker, and the F20. From what I understand the driver for the G-horn is nearly $1,000. That doesn't really qualify as cheap for me. IIRC, the F20 drops off pretty sharply below 20 Hz, which may be okay, but is there a better alternative that lets me keep the output and the bottom end?

If I understand correctly, the lilwrecker and micro wrecker will dig below 20 Hz, but I can't find much on the microwrecker, so I don't really know how they compare.

Beyond that, I'm not sure just how much output I need for a 4,500 c.f. room?

uxl-18 is drop in for ghorn
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Old 06-28-2014, 06:25 PM
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post
uxl-18 is drop in for ghorn
I thought the G-horn gave up a few dB when using the UXL? I can't find the plots I remember now, though. If that is the case, then how does the lilwrecker compare? There's a decent price difference between the UXL and lilwrecker driver from what I remember.

I honestly don't know much about what this, but that's why I was hoping there was a comparison of these horns somewhere.

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Old 06-28-2014, 07:24 PM
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Are you talking the Anarchy driver for the Lil'wrecker? $60/driver is really cheap. UXL's are about $480 USD.......istonline is priced in Canadian. I can vouch for driver......a real steal.
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I thought the G-horn gave up a few dB when using the UXL? I can't find the plots I remember now, though. If that is the case, then how does the lilwrecker compare? There's a decent price difference between the UXL and lilwrecker driver from what I remember.

I honestly don't know much about what this, but that's why I was hoping there was a comparison of these horns somewhere.
how big of a space do u have ? unless u have a amp that can output 8k watts there wont be any difference between the two @ 2k watts which is about 125db @ 1m . lil mikes stuff is childs play compared to ghorn lowther and submaximus which all three of these have about the same output. also there is othorn which is a 30-100horn
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:48 PM
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Oh I like this thread...

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Old 06-28-2014, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post
how big of a space do u have ? unless u have a amp that can output 8k watts there wont be any difference between the two @ 2k watts which is about 125db @ 1m . lil mikes stuff is childs play compared to ghorn lowther and submaximus which all three of these have about the same output. also there is othorn which is a 30-100horn
I have about 4,500 c.f. (18 x 28 x 9 plus some space at the back minus a 15" riser that covers the back half of the room), and I believe I have space for three large horns. Two up front and one in the back if needed for either output or smoothing. I'm open to suggestions for the number of horns that would be necessary for a room like this. I suspect the biggest issue will be seat-to-seat variation, though.

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Old 06-28-2014, 08:07 PM
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Here is hornresp for your HT using the uxl18, at 28 feet long your room gain should smooth out the dips at ~18 and 36 Hz
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:08 PM
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Here is hornresp for your HT using the uxl18, at 28 feet long your room gain should smooth out the dips at ~18 and 36 Hz
That doesn't look very good
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:29 PM
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an alternative to a horn is an array of lesser drivers. that provides monster top end sensitivity, but since they can be port tuned to around 16hz or so, that give you the extended bottom end. tradeoff is size.


http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d192.html

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Old 06-28-2014, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post
Here is hornresp for your HT using the uxl18, at 28 feet long your room gain should smooth out the dips at ~18 and 36 Hz
Thanks for modeling that!

That's for the g-horn, correct? That looks like it's going to need some EQ Are the dips the result of the room dimensions or the horn/driver design?

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Old 06-28-2014, 08:35 PM
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I can't give you much about the comparison between different horns because I'm currently on the same knowledge journey as you are. (Which you know)

But I can give you a real world example of horn vs sealed vs ported

I recently built a few subs (5 of them actually) for a few different purposes. One of the builds I used the same cheap driver (infinity 1260 12" for $59) in sealed and ported. In the garage (30x22) the ported absolutely slayed the sealed. No contest. The port tune was 20hz, and the ported had plenty of extension and just a ton more balls. Both ran off the same simple bash 300watt plate amp I got from Erich on close out from the DIY group buyout section. It was a lot better. I moved them into corners and even moved both into the tool shed and even the outdoor bathroom (8 feet by 6 feet) and same results.

The big garage was the least bass of the three locations but in all locations the ported sub was just crapping right in the sealed subs mouth and the sealed sub couldn't do anything about it.

I also built a bigger ported sub (ported at 20hz) that used two sheets of MDF. It was 4 feet tall and 2 feet wide and deep. After a huge port it was about 10cubes volume and housed two old school but high quality 15" car subs. Port length was like 55" or something if I can remember. I built the crap out of it with braces, used pl premium all over. I even used quarter round trim wood and PL premium adhesive into all the corners after I built it for a little extra. It pounded. Or so I thought compared to the single 12" sealed.

My buddy stopped by with an 18" horn pro audio subwoofer. We hooked it up and it blew me away. The bass was way better. Way more. And it didn't even need a ton of wattage. I'm not sure the tune but typically pro audio stuff is tuned like 35hz. They don't chase that real low stuff, they chase kick drums and low bass notes (30hz+) with authority and SPL output. It showed. On music it was awesome in the big garage space while the lower tuned ported and sealed subs lacked sufficient punch IMO. It was really clean bass too. Just something about it I liked a lot.

I kind of wished I ported the big double 15" box at 25hz instead of 20. Possibly even 28hz. Because with the type of subs I was using it would have hit a lot harder. I use it for the garage and for outdoor patio parties and stuff like the 4th July weekend party. It's tough to make bass in huge rooms and it's even harder to make it outside. But I made the mistake of chasing low end extension and I have less bass for it. After hearing a solution that was different (and better) I learned my lesson.

Ideally I want both extension and output. But if I had to choose give me that effortless crazy distortion free output of a horn. I've heard a lot of sealed systems, and some crazy car audio set ups too. Sealed can be great but I don't think it works as well in big spaces like you and I are working with in our theaters. The bigger the room the lower the frequency before you see significant cabin gain. These awesome sealed set ups in these little basement theaters confined inside concrete walls won't translate with the same results to a big space lacking room gain. Sure you can EQ to bring up the bottom on sealed to make it "flat" but no solution I've seen can do that without stressing the driver more(distortion) and needing a ton more watts, and even then the "flat" SPL in the charts is always 90 or 100db. I think I want like 130db @ 20hz. Sealed is a no go for that. I'd be happy with 110 db at 10hz or "flat" at that volume or under since I won't watch a movie louder than that 95% of the time anyways. But a system that only does 110db doesn't seem loud enough to me to show off your system and crank some music. A 120db or 130db system at 20hz is quite impressive in contrast even if it's lacking the "flat" to 8hz nonsense of graphs and charts posted in threads. Put any person in the two systems and they will like the one that's only flat to 20hz but kicks you in the nuts with steel toed boots over the "flat to 8hz" sealed system that's 20db down in output. Ideally I want both - but if I had to choose a horn is a lot more impressive than a sealed sub. There's just something magical about it.

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Old 06-28-2014, 08:41 PM
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It's just a quick model I did, certainly could use a little refinement. the dips are intentional to match your room gain. in your room it would measure pretty flat out to about 80Hz when a mode from the room width will appear.
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
an alternative to a horn is an array of lesser drivers. that provides monster top end sensitivity, but since they can be port tuned to around 16hz or so, that give you the extended bottom end. tradeoff is size.


http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d192.html
I'd be really interested in doing something like this. Would this be a cool project for a cheap but good value driver like the infinity 1260?

Got any clever ideas ?

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Old 06-28-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I have about 4,500 c.f. (18 x 28 x 9 plus some space at the back minus a 15" riser that covers the back half of the room), and I believe I have space for three large horns. Two up front and one in the back if needed for either output or smoothing. I'm open to suggestions for the number of horns that would be necessary for a room like this. I suspect the biggest issue will be seat-to-seat variation, though.

that's slightly smaller then my bedroom which i have 1 ghorn in currently which plays reference levels without any problem so go with 2 !
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Old 06-28-2014, 10:55 PM
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links for info on ghorns ?

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Old 06-29-2014, 04:24 AM
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If I had it to do over again, I would have built my cabinets at a slightly higher tune, in order to get some additional output over the 30hz to 80hz range, instead of chasing that 15hz dragon. Well, I am not actually 100% positive that going with a higher tune on my four full sized MartySubs would give me more output in that range, but, I can honestly say that having a sub that can dig down that low, is not going to ever be a high priority like it was previously.


It took me years to see the light and realize that the real magic is in the output, not the extension!
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Old 06-29-2014, 07:41 AM
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If I had it to do over again, I would have built my cabinets at a slightly higher tune, in order to get some additional output over the 30hz to 80hz range, instead of chasing that 15hz dragon. Well, I am not actually 100% positive that going with a higher tune on my four full sized MartySubs would give me more output in that range, but, I can honestly say that having a sub that can dig down that low, is not going to ever be a high priority like it was previously.


It took me years to see the light and realize that the real magic is in the output, not the extension!
I'm 100% in agreement. But you need to catch the dragon before you learn.

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Old 06-29-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I'm hoping to find something with respectable output down to 15 Hz, but really pour it on 20 Hz and up.
Ahem!

/points to sig

There's a reason I haven't had a build thread here in a long time. I have all the output down to 15Hz I could ever need
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
If I had it to do over again, I would have built my cabinets at a slightly higher tune, in order to get some additional output over the 30hz to 80hz range, instead of chasing that 15hz dragon. Well, I am not actually 100% positive that going with a higher tune on my four full sized MartySubs would give me more output in that range, but, I can honestly say that having a sub that can dig down that low, is not going to ever be a high priority like it was previously.


It took me years to see the light and realize that the real magic is in the output, not the extension!
Everyone has different tastes but I think for some its a badge of honor to say there flat to 10hz. My car only has 160hp. Good though for 98% of my driving.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:58 AM
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I thinks it's mental though. There really isn't anything impressive about a sealed system that's "flat" to 8hz when you listen to it. Unless charts and graphs are your thing I'd rather have something that's actually exciting when you listen to it.

Ever compared a sealed sub to a martycube with the same driver ? Or just sealed vs ported in general ? A horn is he most exciting to listen to IMO

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Old 06-29-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I thinks it's mental though. There really isn't anything impressive about a sealed system that's "flat" to 8hz when you listen to it. Unless charts and graphs are your thing I'd rather have something that's actually exciting when you listen to it.

Ever compared a sealed sub to a martycube with the same driver ? Or just sealed vs ported in general ?
Only sealed I listened too was my hsuvtf15. Never had sealed diy hooked up. But what about these 8hz scenes people keep talking about ?
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:13 AM
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8hz at 90db is a lot less exciting than 17hz at 120db. If I had to choose only one then I'd rather have the output. Ideally you want both but most sealed set ups fall flat on their face in big rooms. You need to throw money at the problem to minimize but it still never goes away.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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