Piano Black Fusion 12 Tempests + stands, Sealed UXL-18 and Fusion 8 Alchemy MTM build - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 06:00 AM
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Go to the "Hey Guys" thread page 1 for links to two discussions on toe-in for waveguide speakers.

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post #32 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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All I see is the PDF, and it just shows an equilateral triangle with the speakers directly facing LP. Should I move the speakers wider and toe them in more? Or toe them in more from right where they are? They should "cross" each other's paths right at LP right? If I toe them in more the direct line sound path will "cross" way in front of me, or is that what you're supposed to do with the waveguides?

I've always just made an equilateral triangle and faced the tweeters at my face.


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post #33 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 07:25 AM
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That depends on your goals. If you want just the MLP to be the best aim at that position. If you want a larger sweet spot angle the right speaker at the left seating position and the left speaker at the right seating position.

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post #34 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Initial listening impressions:

Very, very clear. I had to skip A LOT of tracks, anything poorly recorded sounded really bad. I could easily, easily hear the difference between 128 kbit mp3 and 320/cd quality. Like a HUGE noticeable difference. Within literally one second of hitting play I would hit skip. I didn't know which mp3's were which quality so it was basically "blind". One of my favourite albums, U2's The Joshua Tree, I did not enjoy too much, it is not a great recording. It does have quite a bit of lower bass though so it will be better with a sub. Other's I briefly listened to were Rumours, The Stranger, Aja, Dark Side, and Wish you were here.

Soundstage was really good, I could move all around and it still sounded like it was coming from between the speakers. The only time I've ever heard a soundstage like this was when I auditioned B&W 802D2's last summer in a high-end show room. These sounded just as good, definitely could play WAY LOUDER.

The volume is INSANE. It can go so loud and so clear just off this 10 year old denon that's 5 channels and only rated at like 60w a channel. When I did +20 dB on the receiver by accident, it really hurt my ears, but for the second I heard it, it didn't even sound that bad haha. If I did this on my other speakers they would just sound like garbage and the tweeters would probably blow. This happened because I thought it wouldn't go above +3 because another time I was listening on the paradigm's I couldn't turn it up for some reason. So we switched sources and turned it up with the CD on play, but my dad switched to the DVD source by accident instead of CD, which was still playing music. I never got to a volume where the ports moved more than a tiny trickle of air. All my other speakers really blow air at what I would consider a decent listening volume. My other smaller speaker also get a ton of cone movement, these BARELY are vibrating. This is what makes the mid's so awesome, as the smaller speakers distort so badly when they are moving. Sitting on the floor they definitely were putting quite the vibrations all through the cement floor and walls, so they should really improve when I put them on my stands that have spikes.

The finish isn't as good as I hoped it would be, it's not that shiny, and there is still swirl marks when you look closely, as well as a few tiny spots the clear sanded through, and two spots on the back bottom where the basecoat sanded through. Hopefully it gets back to how it was after being sprayed when I wax it in a month. The sub will be really beautiful though, it is PERFECT. I figure in a few years I will just 80 grit sand the tempests and the alchemy mtm and re-do the primer, basecoat, clearcoat. The paint is VERY smooth so it would be very easy to make it perfect with a new coat of paint. I actually like painting too, it's fun. I did not sand these long enough in the bondo stage, and I did not do two separate sessions of primer (I ran out, and the store is 45 min away, and it's 50 bucks for a quart), which would have really helped. I should have spent more time sanding but I was in a rush to hear them :P. The sub had turned out really well so I went a bit quicker on these, thinking the primer was the reason. But really, I just did a really good bondo job on the sub, I think I did like 3 separate coats, it took me like 40 hours to bondo it haha, and it was a flatpack. Oh well, they look amazing from a distance, you can only see the minor flaws up close in good lighting. I'll get some high quality pics when I get them on the stands and after waxing.

I will do better listening impression after I get them on the stands and after they've broken in, as well as a comparison thread later on.

Can anyone recommend some REALLY GOOD quality recorded CD's? Or if there is a list of them somewhere?

For the speaker comparison, can people suggest a couple songs that are PERFECT quality to compare?


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post #35 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 04:44 PM
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For what it's worth I find Nickel Creek's self titled album from 2000 a great reference when reviewing speakers. It's an analog recording by Gary Paczosa


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post #36 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 04:45 PM
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Really nice to hear you like these speakers. I have had them on my list to build to replace some Klipsch Reference series. I am just finishing up a huge backyard redo adding a 700 sq. ft. Covered patio with an outdoor kitchen, bar and firepit. Also redid the landscaping. I am tired of working in the AZ heat and probably won't get to the Tempests until fall. I am jealous.

How far have you toed them in? Did you try different amounts of toe in?

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post #37 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Other's I briefly listened to were Rumours, The Stranger, Aja, Dark Side, and Wish you were here.

- snip! -

Can anyone recommend some REALLY GOOD quality recorded CD's? Or if there is a list of them somewhere?

For the speaker comparison, can people suggest a couple songs that are PERFECT quality to compare?
Your tastes seem to line up with mine to some extent, so let me list a few faves, along with a few ringers:

Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms is kind of a speaker roundup benchmark you'll find all over
Donald Fagan - The Nightfly
Eagles - Hell Freezes Over (available in stereo and 5.1)
Norah Jones - Come Away With Me (light female vocals, very good quality though)
Two Against Nature is another good Steely Dan album, more recent and very well recorded
Tears For Fears - The Seeds Of Love

If you have any interest in modern studio jazz (big band variety), check out anything by Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band. XXL is a good one.
In a similar vein, Brian Culbertson - Bringing Back The Funk. More smooth jazz oriented (sorry) but heavily leaning toward high-energy funk with great dynamics.

My favorite female vocalist lately is probably Holly Cole, if you like such stuff (smoky jazz covers). The songs "Alley Cat Song" and "Waters Of March" from her self-titled album are great benchmarks for vocals with acoustic jazz backing IMHO.
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post #38 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool, thanks for the suggestions. Yeah, I have seen Brothers in Arms recommended pretty much everywhere, but I don't think I've ever even heard that album before. I found a re-mastered The Joshua Tree I'm buying, I have the original recording, apparently the remastered one is way better.

I haven't tried too much toe-in, just two positions, the above picture, and the new position on their stands, both tweeters pointing just in front of my face in the LP. I don't think I notice a big difference, the main difference I notice is between different CD's soundstages, like Wish you were here has a really nice soundstage and the voice is right from the center of the speakers, but Dark Side of the Moon is like random stuff out of L/R speakers so you can really tell which is coming from what speaker.

I look forward to hooking up my sub, probably on Saturday, as I can really tell there is limited bass out of these. I don't really get how it's a 37 hz tuning frequency but there is like no output down there, and the frequency response shows flat to 40 hz? Maybe because I only have a few hours of break-in on the woofers so far?

Also there is no EQ or anything on these speakers right now, no room treatments, and it's an L shaped room which is horrible.


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post #39 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 07:46 PM
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Just finished one of my speakers, here's some piano black for ya



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post #40 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
I will do better listening impression after I get them on the stands and after they've broken in, as well as a comparison thread later on.

Can anyone recommend some REALLY GOOD quality recorded CD's? Or if there is a list of them somewhere?

For the speaker comparison, can people suggest a couple songs that are PERFECT quality to compare?
For a really good sample of 1 song, there's a free download from an AVS forum thread dealing with tests of 24/96 vs. Redbook. Go to this post, scroll down near the bottom of the post and download the "Just My Imagination A" track. Unzip it to a WAV file. It's from AIX Records, digital recording at 24/96, no compression. The artist is jazz trumpeter Wallace Roney. Most of the AIX artists are in my view mediocre, but Wallace Roney is top notch and so is this recording. You'll need to turn it way up to get the equivalent loudness of more compressed material.
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post #41 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 07:55 PM
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Pendulum has their last album lossless if you're into electronic type stuff.. immersion I think it was called. I was impressed. Lots of bass, very deep.


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post #42 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Pendulum has their last album lossless if you're into electronic type stuff.. immersion I think it was called. I was impressed. Lots of bass, very deep.
yeaaa, got that, very good quality. What black paint did you use for your speaker?

I can still see scratches/swirls in mine, from the rubbing compound... I'm wondering my pads are bad or maybe I'm pushing too hard on the speaker?


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post #43 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 08:09 PM
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yeaaa, got that, very good quality. What black paint did you use for your speaker?

I can still see scratches/swirls in mine, from the rubbing compound... I'm wondering my pads are bad or maybe I'm pushing too hard on the speaker?

Did you have or just get now?

Rubbing compound - light to medium pressure. It will leave swirl marks. Hit it with glaze after. Again, light to medium pressure. Make sure to use different pads and clean up in between. When the it starts drying up, lighten up on the pressure.

I just used some random black enamel rustoleum rattle can for the black. The clear is what's important.



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post #44 of 84 Old 07-10-2014, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Pad was from last summer, I probably should have washed it before I used it, I haven't washed it since after polishing my center last August. I also think I just pushed too hard, I can see certain areas where I remember pushing it hard across. I will re-do it softer. The shine is quite nice, and it is very smooth, I just noticed some scratches.


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post #45 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 04:59 AM
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Did you have or just get now?

Rubbing compound - light to medium pressure. It will leave swirl marks. Hit it with glaze after. Again, light to medium pressure. Make sure to use different pads and clean up in between. When the it starts drying up, lighten up on the pressure.

I just used some random black enamel rustoleum rattle can for the black. The clear is what's important.


So you can do for a nice, shiny, piano gloss black paint job with standard Rustoleum black enamel in a rattle can? Would the rattle can primer be ok to use as well? If so, any particular primer brands you would recommend, and should the primer and/or base coats be sanded in between coats?
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post #46 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 05:01 AM
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So you can do for a nice, shiny, piano gloss black paint job with standard Rustoleum black enamel in a rattle can? Would the rattle can primer be ok to use as well? If so, any particular primer brands you would recommend, and should the primer and/or base coats be sanded in between coats?

I used rattle can primer under the black, worked good. The key is the clear coat.


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post #47 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 05:40 AM
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I used rattle can primer under the black, worked good. The key is the clear coat.
Did you sand in between coats of the rattle can primer and rattle can black enamel? How many coats of both primer and base coats did you do, and what grit sand paper did you use for in between coats of primer and base?

What did you use for the clear coats? Did you shoot them with a spray gun? Any advise for a novice with regards to the clear coats and getting the best finish?
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post #48 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
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I look forward to hooking up my sub, probably on Saturday, as I can really tell there is limited bass out of these. I don't really get how it's a 37 hz tuning frequency but there is like no output down there, and the frequency response shows flat to 40 hz?
They aren't tuned to 37hz, they can play to 37hz. Bass down that low will depend on where they are put in the room.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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post #49 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure what Not did, but you have to sand the primer before the base coat for sure, usually between 220 and 400 grit. Sand base coats between 400 and 600 grit, don't sand the final base coat before clear. Then on clear you can do like 800, 1500, 2000, compound, polish or 1000, 2000, compound polish. Like Not said, all that matters is the clear coat, as long as your prime/base isn't awful. The flatter your box, the better the mirror look will be. The way Not did it, I think he has no seams on that front piece, which is the best way to do it. It is stupid hard to do a mirror finish when there are seams. There are a million different ways to do piano black, but in the end it all comes down to wetsand and polish.


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post #50 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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They aren't tuned to 37hz, they can play to 37hz. Bass down that low will depend on where they are put in the room.
That makes sense, I definitely read that they were tuned at 37 hz somewhere, probably someones review and they mixed up extension with tune. I was really confused why they would be tuned at 37 hz, but it makes sense that is wrong.


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post #51 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 08:21 AM
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I'm not sure what Not did, but you have to sand the primer before the base coat for sure, usually between 220 and 400 grit. Sand base coats between 400 and 600 grit, don't sand the final base coat before clear. Then on clear you can do like 800, 1500, 2000, compound, polish or 1000, 2000, compound polish. Like Not said, all that matters is the clear coat, as long as your prime/base isn't awful. The flatter your box, the better the mirror look will be. The way Not did it, I think he has no seams on that front piece, which is the best way to do it. It is stupid hard to do a mirror finish when there are seams. There are a million different ways to do piano black, but in the end it all comes down to wetsand and polish.
This, except I skip 2000. I have air tools so can cut faster with compound. Just gotta make sure the peel is gone and the scratches from the previous grit. good light is key here.


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post #52 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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This, except I skip 2000. I have air tools so can cut faster with compound. Just gotta make sure the peel is gone and the scratches from the previous grit. good light is key here.
Yeah, professional rubbing compound is good to remove like down to 1200-1500, I just have the over the shelf meguiar's ultimate compound, which I read can't really do much less than 2000 grit.

What air polisher do you have?


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post #53 of 84 Old 07-11-2014, 08:49 AM
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Yeah, professional rubbing compound is good to remove like down to 1200-1500, I just have the over the shelf meguiar's ultimate compound, which I read can't really do much less than 2000 grit.

What air polisher do you have?
Chicago Pneumatic. Posted above


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post #54 of 84 Old 07-13-2014, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's some finished pictures:

Tempests:





Sub:









They sound way better with a sub for sure. After Eq'ing a bit and balancing the sub, I don't think I've ever heard speakers that sound this good. Well maybe at lower volume levels I've heard speakers just as good, but once you turn it up nothing I've ever heard even compares except for 802D2's, but they're $15,000.00 haha.
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post #55 of 84 Old 07-13-2014, 06:28 PM
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that's some really nice work there too!

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #56 of 84 Old 07-13-2014, 09:07 PM
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They look as good as I'm sure they sound. Great job.

.
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post #57 of 84 Old 07-14-2014, 05:41 AM
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Well done!
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post #58 of 84 Old 07-14-2014, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the comments guys.

I was going to make another thread to compare them to some commercial speakers, but I think it's pretty pointless now. It wouldn't be fair, it's like comparing the performance of a corvette z06 to a cruze. At low volumes, sure, there's not a big difference, just like a cruze vs corvette driving at 60 mph down the highway with cruise control. Anything that you hear that is noticeable would just be hearing the speakers react with the room. Any $1000 pair of speakers I've ever heard sounds just as good at low volumes, in the main listening position. If comparing low volumes (70 dB average) in positions not ideal, the Tempests are a lot better, especially for movies. Their sound stage is really wide thanks to the wave-guides. At medium volumes (80 dB average), it starts to outperform smaller bookshelves. Decently priced and designed full range towers can still compete at medium volumes (80 dB average), especially if running both speakers full range. But of course, the Tempests aren't designed for full range, you need a subwoofer.

Once you take them to 85 or 90 dB average volume, they start to shine. The Tempests get clearer better sounding, better soundstage. Crazy mid bass with a subwoofer, can feel every note. Can get them to sound like a live show easily. At this volume, most consumer speakers start to struggle. You can start hearing harshness in the tweeters and a bit of muddiness in the bass. Take it to 100 dB, Tempests still sound great, and your ears will start to complain(from SPL, not distortion). Move 20 feet back, they still sound amazing. Every consumer speaker I've ever heard just sounds like garbage at 100 dB except for some crazy high end ones with a ton of power.

Another thing to note is I really dislike the typical "horn" sound of klipsch speakers. These speakers sound NOTHING like klipsch, if I couldn't see the wave guide I would swear they were dome tweeters, until I heard them cranked up of course .

I really like how the Tempests sound when playing guitars and pianos. They sound so real.

These speakers have actually really improved the surround experience for movies. A lot of strain is removed from the receiver as these are 8 dB louder than most consumer L/R's, which is about 6-7x the power. So these speakers can play the same volume at 10 watts, as other speakers at 60 watts. In most receivers, this is a HUGE distortion % difference. The extra power that is available for the center and surrounds, really makes you feel immersed, and you can tell there's less distortion. When I hook these up to my good receiver, surrounds, and center, in my room with treatments, I expect it to easily surpass IMAX audio quality (my system before this basically did any ways). The large sound stage lets you hear things coming from the front corners of the room.

Only negative is bad recordings sound bad. Studio re-mastered CD's and MFSL re-mastered CD's are a huge improvement on these speakers over original mixes (of "oldish" music). Most modern recordings are great. They are also larger than most speakers, but not that much larger than a typical tower. Maybe a couple inches wider and deeper. I wanted to make a magnetic grill for them, but there was no room for the edges of a grill on the baffle. I would have to have gotten the non-roundovered baffle, but I would rather have round-over and no grill than square edges and a grill.


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post #59 of 84 Old 07-14-2014, 11:33 AM
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post #60 of 84 Old 07-14-2014, 12:09 PM
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I found with my b & w and tekton speakers they were fine up to 95 dB's. Anything after that and they were struggling.
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