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post #1 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I need help with a design and driver!

Ok guys, I have changed my seating to a 5 in front and two in back and moved the surrounds into a stack horn array in the back corners ala Imax. The speakers sound awesome like that BTW. Anyways my surrounds need stands and I thought either another wedge 10 or a ported sub. Why a ported sub, because I get nothing below 20hz with it being a near field location. I need two, one for each corner surround and a maximum space of 21 inches high and 3-4 feet wide and deep. I would really like a 11-12 hz tune with maximum output. If I can use re xxx if possible and even 15 inch. I modeled the SI 18 which looks pretty good but can I do better?
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post #2 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 05:58 PM
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SI18" would be budget. UXL18 or LMS would be premium.

XXX might be crazy. How about the 24" SI ? Oh wait you only have 21" high..

Plenty of depth and width though. I guess you are stuck with an 18" driver.

Do you have a firm budget ?

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post #3 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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No, the XXX is what I want a BUT I don't think I can get my port short enough to work. The XXX 12 could work but the SI 18 would have just as much output for much cheaper. I will spend if I need to. My speakers will hit the ceiling if I go past 21 inches in height. I don't need more bass but I figured why build stands with nothing in them.
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post #4 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 06:12 PM
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Driver: UXL18
Box: 30" wide. 30" Deep. 21" High.
Volume: ? 7-8 cubes after bracing and port and drivers? I will go with 7.5 for now.

7.5 cubes would get you like 108db at 10hz. That is pretty good IMO for one sub. A sealed UXL would only get you 97db @10hz for comparison. At the 7hz the ported and sealed are equal in output, below 7hz the sealed is up a few db and then ported drops off a cliff after 6hz.

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post #5 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
No, the XXX is what I want a BUT I don't think I can get my port short enough to work. The XXX 12 could work but the SI 18 would have just as much output for much cheaper. I will spend if I need to. My speakers will hit the ceiling if I go past 21 inches in height. I don't need more bass but I figured why build stands with nothing in them.
Yeah we can Side slot port !

You want the XXX 18" from RE AUDIO ? Tell me the driver? You have specs for it or a link ? I have someones personal measurements for WINISD I can use that for now.




The UXL actually is louder at 10hz in the same box and ported at 11hz. But XXX is louder at 25hz and drops off a little less. ^


Side slot port. That is how we can get the port length.

If you do the box 42" by 42" by your 21" high you could get a big box and a room for a long port (essentially 42" +38" =80" port )

I have not crunched it out but I am sure it would work something out.

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post #6 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 06:38 PM
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48" x 48" x 21" is 25 cube before port, driver and bracing. Let's call that an 18 cube box after port/driver/brace for the sake of exploring without doing math

If you slot port you could effectively get 48" wide minus .75 + .75 for the sides and lets do two braces down the center also .75 each (just MDF rips on table saw) so that effectively makes it 3 ports actually, or one port with two braces. If we take off 3" for the braces and side walls that is a 45" port width. That's wide ass port. You can get the port tune that way, especially if you go the side port and have another 44" to work with (48" of box minus sides and enough space to begin the port ) I don't think chuffing would be a problem on a wide ass port like that in an 18 cube box. But I might need to check that. I'm still newbie.

How much power would you dump on it ? I'll check the port velocity and confirm it might work.

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post #7 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 06:45 PM
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2000 watts on XXX in 18 cube box with side slot port of 2" x 45" x 86" long gets you about there. I doubt you will have it rocking that hard at 8hz with 2000 watts, a tad bit of chuffing might be acceptable in model and not present itself IRL.

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post #8 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I modeled long ports and the problem is port resonance is too low. I could get 108 dBs from the SI tuned at 12 hz as well. Before I build or even have someone build I want the best possible option. So far only the SI and Dayton fit in a box this size, tuned this low, and have a resonance above the crossover. I may turn my IB into a giant ported LLT tuned to 10hz which would give me 13 dBs more at 10hz and still extend to my signal chain rolloff. I really don't need to do that as I could add a LT of 10 dBs with similar effects except I run out of breaker amps!
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post #9 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I can get XXX 15's for the same as UXL's and available now so if it can work it might produce more SPL.
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post #10 of 75 Old 07-02-2014, 09:27 PM
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I built a 30cuft box for a 21" ftw tuned at 13hz. With 2200 watts from inuke it has crazy output.
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post #11 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Driver: UXL18
Box: 30" wide. 30" Deep. 21" High.
Volume: ? 7-8 cubes after bracing and port and drivers? I will go with 7.5 for now.

7.5 cubes would get you like 108db at 10hz. That is pretty good IMO for one sub. A sealed UXL would only get you 97db @10hz for comparison. At the 7hz the ported and sealed are equal in output, below 7hz the sealed is up a few db and then ported drops off a cliff after 6hz.
That doesn't seem right to me, what power are you giving each, and are they under xmax?

edit: modeled it, your numbers are without a high pass filter and the driver needs to double it's xmax, with a first order high pass at 13 hz, the sealed and ported tuned at 14 both get 100 dB at 10 hz. The sealed is up 23 dB at 5 hz, 12 dB at 7. Ported has advantage from 10 to 50 hz. 8 dB up at 14 hz.

Last edited by Bassment; 07-03-2014 at 07:32 AM.
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post #12 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I built a 30cuft box for a 21" ftw tuned at 13hz. With 2200 watts from inuke it has crazy output.

You don't know it yet but you probably are building these for me. Can the marty be transformed into a mini XXX ported? When I model the XXX ported on DB it shows the port velocity to be real high so I am thinking I can match it and be safe.
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post #13 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
You don't know it yet but you probably are building these for me. Can the marty be transformed into a mini XXX ported? When I model the XXX ported on DB it shows the port velocity to be real high so I am thinking I can match it and be safe.
I don't think the Marty would work because of port length. You'll need to design a box that can use use your maximum dimensions possible in all directions (4feet) to get the port length you'll need for a tune that low. A normal sized square box won't have enough length for a tune that low.

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post #14 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I can get XXX 15's for the same as UXL's and available now so if it can work it might produce more SPL.
15" and not 18". ?

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post #15 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Whatever works in my situation. Here are 3 sims, one with the 18, 15, and the SI 18.


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post #16 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 10:10 AM
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You could always go sealed , but I know you want those extra 12 db at 12hz
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post #17 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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These will be nearfield so I would need lots of boost and displacement to get to 10hz back there and the 24 seems like the only driver to do it and it won't fit.
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post #18 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 10:50 AM
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If you did a downfiring or up-firing box you could fit a SI-24 ?
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post #19 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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These will be stands so speakers are sitting on them. Maybe downfiring with feet would work.
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post #20 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 11:25 AM
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For upfiring I was thinking something like putting say 5 inch long pieces of wood on the 4 corners and putting a flat piece of wood on top as the "shelf".
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post #21 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I don't think the Marty would work because of port length. You'll need to design a box that can use use your maximum dimensions possible in all directions (4feet) to get the port length you'll need for a tune that low. A normal sized square box won't have enough length for a tune that low.
The port was 6" high for the 30 cuft box . flat to 13 hz. Ltd02 designed it of course.
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post #22 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
These will be stands so speakers are sitting on them. Maybe downfiring with feet would work.
21" high by 36" x 36" ? Or whatever big it needed to be in the other dimensions to reach optimal volume. It's a solid idea.

Or you could try for a triple or quad 12" box with drivers on three sides or possibly the bottom too ?

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post #23 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 12:50 PM
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How about a cheap triple 12" Infinity box for near field low frequency brutality ?

4 feet wide.
4 feet deep.
21" tall.

About 18 cubes total. Driver on each side. port 45" wide (48" minus sides and brace) and about 66" long (this is about the max) gets you about 12hz tune with 1.75" height. This is doable. The chuffing will be minimal will all but max output at very low frequency. A 8hz sine wave at drivers max wattage would get you 23.5 m/s air velocity - lower wattage or higher frequency you are safe. Just put an 8hz subsonic on it. You can pound these things in that case without worries.

Drivers cost only $185 too. Good for 110db @10hz from only 1000 watts. This is just one box. Two would be formidable. That is 6 drivers, basically a proper bass solution for most sane people in and unto itself.

120db+ higher up in frequency too if you wanted it.

actually it makes sense to do 4 of them... two each 48" side, so you can run 2ohm loads easy of an amp - and run 4 of them off a single cheap amp like a small inuke or something at 2ohm channel.

Put the port facing you, or turn it. I guess it does't really matter. (4) 12" ported at 12hz near field will be felt if that is the effect you are looking for. You are not up to $250 per box in drivers cost. Doubt you can beat the result with a single SI18" - or make the tune work.


What you would want to do with a set up like this is boost the port tune for that low frequency brutality - but also do a hard cut (or multiple) just below port tune to keep excursion in check. You would also want to cut a little above port tune where the drive would be hitting xmax to keep that in check, something like 20hz or 30hz probably. This will make the response very heavy at 12hz (probably 105db-110db) but it will drop off a bit higher (where your other subs do the work anyways)

It could work with the right EQ touch. Keep excursion in check with a high pass subsonic filter below tune, and cut above port tune where the driver excursion might be problematic at maximum power. This would allow you dump full power on them and get significant 12hz output. If you could make the box a bit taller you could get a lower tune and extend the port to get that. But 12hz is pretty decent. The first port resonance would be above 100hz too.

I am just confused- so you want only 10-20hz output for bottom fill and feeling or will you run these full range with your current set up for extra bump in SPL ?

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post #24 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 01:14 PM
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Man u know your stuff
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post #25 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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These will be run from 6-80hz on the LFE channel splitting with the IB. Don't worry what it will do at the limits because I won't reach them, these are literally going to be 1 foot away from my seats due to depth. The speakers will rest on the back side of them, basically think of a big stand for a 20 inch cube speaker, well, 40 inches tall but 20 inches wide and deep.
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post #26 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
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Man u know your stuff
Not really.. lol. I just like to tinker. I forget small but important things in WinISD when I go fast like that. I go back and check it and scratch my head sometimes. There is a lot to balance. I always forget something. Either everything looks good but I forgot to check excursion and I find the driver is way past it's real limit, or I forget to check for chuffing and air velocity is way out of whack, or the first port resonance is too low, or the port is just too long for the box... etc.. etc..

To get a super low tune like he wants is very difficult. You need a big box which is possible since he has a lot of room in width and depth- but he is limited to 21" high which messes everything up because to get the 12hz or 10hz port tune you need a port that's about 5 miles long It's doable though. If he uses the full 48" he said is available and then designed the box around using those dimensions and sides for the port then you actually can get a really wide and long port if you design the box right. 8 foot long port is lulz. Just lol. But it's possible. That's a pretty big odd looking box which is probably why you don't see folks doing this sort of thing. But he has a proper bass solution already and is just looking for that near field brutality.

I think sealed is the easy way to do it. It should match up better with your current set up, the box can be easier to build at the size that might work good for you. Sure you give up 12db+ at port tune but if you already have a proper bass solution this is just gravy right ? Being close will get you that effect you want even if it's 12db down.

I saw PainInfliction do the same thing in his theater build. Check this out: The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #27 of 75 Old 07-03-2014, 02:36 PM
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Or we could take a trip to the crazy farm and try to fold a horn in the space

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post #28 of 75 Old 07-04-2014, 06:02 AM
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I agree with Mfusick with the sealed solution. MK, you said that you don't need a lot of output because it is near field so sealed should be perfect. 21" high would be easy with sealed as you know already and you could probably go dual opposed with the dimensions that you listed. You said that you would have to boost the low end a lot with a sealed sub in your room. Would that be a problem if you were not using the sub at full potential? Going dual opposed with 18's in each corner or behind the seats would be a lot of displacement and you may not have to boost that much. Just a thought. I will be tuning in to see what you decide to go with. Can you post some pictures of the space you want to put the subs? I have my subs behind my seats and love the tactical feeling I get from them! You can't beat near field placement for tactical feeling IMO. My theater is also on the second floor so that might help as well.

I watched Lone Survivor last night and those chopper scenes felt like an earthquake! Those were the 6hz scenes that lasted about a minute. It was shaking the crap out of my floor and I told my wife "this is what we have been missing out of movies before we got sealed subs." That movie was a fantastic movie! Best that I have seen lately and was kind of sad at points.

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post #29 of 75 Old 07-04-2014, 06:09 AM
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It would actually be really easy to make the port 8 feet long (or close to) if the box is 4'x4'x21", around two sides like you said, and side ported. It's probably the easiest port you can build other than dropping in PVC pipes.
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post #30 of 75 Old 07-04-2014, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
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It would actually be really easy to make the port 8 feet long (or close to) if the box is 4'x4'x21", around two sides like you said, and side ported. It's probably the easiest port you can build other than dropping in PVC pipes.
Yeah it's doable for sure, just tricky. He also wants the port resonance to be above the crossover point. The port also needs to minimize chuffing. If you play with EQ you should be able to dump stupid power at the port tune, it wouldn't be flat but it would make itself known.

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