Preliminary Results are in for the Vancouver GTG - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 07-05-2014, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Preliminary Results are in for the Vancouver GTG

So I went over to Jbrown's and also met Chalu and Warren there.

We listened to the Pioneer VSX-21TXH receiver and a Sherbourn PA 7-350 amp, and then the Sherbourn with my 105 and XSP-1 in analog XLR direct mode.


and of course the quad ported UXL-18's


and also a ported ho-15


We ran out of time before we could achieve all that we wanted to.
We had to transport $9000 worth of equipment from my car into joe's basement, that took about an hour by the time we got everything hooked up and running.
We listened to Rihanna Stay on the JTR's and the Tempest 12's, and then some bass tracks at a low level.
We then opened REW and unleashed the UXL sinewaves on my term-lab:

and then spent some time with the HO-15 and then optimizing the inuke6000DSP settings with a umik.
Then spent some time talking and getting to know each other.

Then we unleashed HTTYD upon the UXL and term-lab.

We stopped here for fear of breaking Joe's house or upsetting the wife or the cops.
The quad ported UXL's had a good 14db of headroom above and beyond this in his room;
the inukes never complained, I don't think we ever got past the second or third LED (it had a lot of horsepower still under the hood).

With my help we were able to extract another 10db out of the UXL's at 13hz for the GTG on the 19th (and as I said, the sub still had 14db of boosting-headroom beyond that if he wants).


I couldn't tell you what the Pioneer sounded like because Joe's screen was in the way masking the details at that exact time; and we ran out of time for any critical listening to be done nor did we get to analyze the PQ of any electronics; nor did we get to testing the 103 or umc-2. But we will if I can land a perm job in Vancouver.

We discovered that Joe has 6%THD on his power line. The highest I've ever seen measured to-date coming out of a wallsocket.

I think that Brown, Chal and Warren have all gained an TRUE understanding of how painfully loud my TL score of 131db@62hz in this vid actually was. (am I right?)
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"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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Last edited by BassThatHz; 07-05-2014 at 11:51 PM.
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post #2 of 47 Old 07-05-2014, 11:17 PM
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Email me that graph if you can before bedtime
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post #3 of 47 Old 07-05-2014, 11:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Email me that graph if you can before bedtime
It's in your inbox now.

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #4 of 47 Old 07-05-2014, 11:33 PM
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I don't have rew on my home computer . Can you take a screenshot and send me the png or jpeg ?
I will send you that invite to your gmail. Invite sent.

I got banned from hts (don't ask me how) so can't load rew.

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post #5 of 47 Old 07-05-2014, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I was able to record a quick vid of the Tempest 12's and UXL-18's with the 105 to XSP-1 to Sherbourn & inuke6kdsp... after juggling 9 zillion XLR/Cat/USB/RCA/Power cables.


note: This was prior to the 10db subwoofer DSP enhancements.


and here is a sweep of the low end of the ported Tempest 12's, that we just happened to capture by accident. (Don't ask)


Overall, my thoughts were that the SEOS-12 has a wider dispersion than the JTR Noesis 228HT tweeter. both were clean sounding.
However... the 228HT had a sweeter mid that had less coloration than the Eminence Delta Pro-12A, which sounded a bit muffled and chesty.
I preferred the sound of my own mains over either of these two by at least 25%, but that's not really a fair comparison given how much more beefy mine are and the fact that I have them EQ'ed to my liking.

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post #6 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
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As for my thoughts on the LMS-18 sealed vs UXL-18 ported.
The LMS seems to have more dynamic expression above 40hz, the ported UXL's seemed to have more movie impact weight to it below 30hz.
It's really hard to say since I'm not used to the bass response characteristics of someone else's room, such as joe's.

Neither have noticeable distortion at sane levels, however at higher SPL or on ULF sinewaves at healthy output the port noise was noticeable to me, to the point where it was perhaps even masking any driver noise that may have been present.
Personally I think I will be keeping my system as sealed or IB'ed forever, as I am just too anti-portnoise oriented to ever go ported. Never heard horned so I can say about that.
I don't know... I'm just not 100% sold on the idea of going ported.
I would like to compare side by side, sealed vs sealed and ported vs ported for a fair comparison of the driver itself, rather than the box it's in.

I refuse to talk about the ho-15, as they they aren't even in the same class as the UXL or LMS are. I'm sure it's good for it's price range.
I'd like to see a ho-15 vs a um-15 go head to head though, that would be a more fair comparison to speak of...

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #7 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 02:10 AM
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Shawn, did you really hear port noise coming from my subs? I wish you had pointed it out to me because I don't think I've ever experienced it with them. Was is during some of the movie material we watched or while running some test frequencies? I'd like to try to recreate it to hear for myself.


And thanks again for coming over, you were a big help with my setup of the subs and a very knowledgeable guy. It was greatly appreciated.
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post #8 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Shawn, did you really hear port noise coming from my subs? I wish you had pointed it out to me because I don't think I've ever experienced it with them. Was is during some of the movie material we watched or while running some test frequencies? I'd like to try to recreate it to hear for myself.
And thanks again for coming over, you were a big help with my setup of the subs and a very knowledgeable guy. It was greatly appreciated.
It was during the dragon scene when we had it at a gain of 12db and the cones were moving like 1 inch or perhaps a bit more (and the inuke amp was humming for some reason that we still don't understand... my crowns have never done that, that's weird).

Just turn the AVR up from -10db (I think that's what you said it was at).

I use the XLR outputs on my XSP-1 for the subs on movies and cleanboxes to convert the LFE rca to xlr. That could be the difference why I have never heard any hum from gain (or it could be an inuke only thing).
I think you are just using a rca to xlr cable, no? So unless your AVR solves it, your inuke is already at MAX GAIN so there is no other way to get the subs louder without inducing hum.
So there is that problem too.

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #9 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 06:12 AM
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The inukes only need 0.75 V so there shouldn't bee any need for for boosting the signal unless your Pioneer has an exceptionally weak sub output. Normally its better to have the amplification up front and attenuate at the power amp, so instead of having the receiver at -10db and the amp at -0db is usually better to have the receiver a -0db and the power amp at -10db. That way the signal in the cable will be at a higher voltage and any noise pollution will account for a smaller portion of the total signal.
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post #10 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 06:38 AM
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How much stuffing is in the Tempest boxes?


Chalugadp, how did you get banned from HTS? I don't go there very often but know others that do.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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post #11 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 08:10 AM
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How much stuffing is in the Tempest boxes?


Chalugadp, how did you get banned from HTS? I don't go there very often but know others that do.
I don't know how much stuffing but I felt it was a little chesty as well. Does that mean too little or two much ?

I disagreed with one of there rules and went on a rant. No warning, banned. There diy is weak so not too concerned.
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post #12 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 08:15 AM
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Maybe not enough if the box reflections are finding their way out the cone. Depends what chesty means, but bassthathz associated it with the mids, so that would be my guess.
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post #13 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 08:24 AM
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Looks like there was a lot of boost applied below tuning. This could have been responsible for the chuffing. Generally good practice to add a high pass just below tuning.

What changes were made to the iNuke?
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post #14 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Looks like there was a lot of boost applied below tuning. This could have been responsible for the chuffing. Generally good practice to add a high pass just below tuning.

What changes were made to the iNuke?

At the moment there is zero boosting setup in the amp, there's a high pass filter just to protect the drivers from bottoming out.
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post #15 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 09:45 AM
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The red line was the first measurement we took with how I had the sub setup with some of the EQ that I tried applying to the amp's, I guess I got things mixes up with the "LS" and "HS" slopes too ....LOL I guess it's all part of the DIY learning curve right. I think Shawn explained it as I wasn't boosting the frequencies but cutting them off by 7dB I think. Always the blue graph was how it measured after we figured that out but with zero boosting amps to any frequencies. Just simply the amps powering the subs with a high pass in place to protect the drivers.


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post #16 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 09:47 AM
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Cool! I bet the SEOS what have done even better with the delta lite or kappa lite woofers! Kudos to the SEOS guys! I liked my SEOS fusion 10 better than my 888lp's. Anyways, I might port my IB so I don't lose 5hz output but gain above. A giant LLT. Of course it is not needed but I could always just seal it up again.
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post #17 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 09:53 AM
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I used the Tempest last night to watch a few movies and listen to music after Donny and Shawn left. I really like the way they sound, they have great mid bass definitely better then the 228HT's but what do you expect from a 12" driver verse two 8" drivers. But I still prefer the highs of the 228HT's, for music and voices I still say its more detailed.
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post #18 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I used the Tempest last night to watch a few movies and listen to music after Donny and Shawn left. I really like the way they sound, they have great mid bass definitely better then the 228HT's but what do you expect from a 12" driver verse two 8" drivers. But I still prefer the highs of the 228HT's, for music and voices I still say its more detailed.
It would be interesting if you can eq the tempest to be more like the 228 for voices. I agree that the jtrs were more natural sounding for voices.

Can you run a sweep of the tempest in your room , one for left and one for right. Would be interesting to see if you have some peaks and nulls effecting the sound. Maybe post the graph here.

I know the jtrs would have the same room effects since neither were eqd. Just curious.
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post #19 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post
The inukes only need 0.75 V so there shouldn't bee any need for for boosting the signal unless your Pioneer has an exceptionally weak sub output. Normally its better to have the amplification up front and attenuate at the power amp, so instead of having the receiver at -10db and the amp at -0db is usually better to have the receiver a -0db and the power amp at -10db. That way the signal in the cable will be at a higher voltage and any noise pollution will account for a smaller portion of the total signal.
I thinks it's more of a convenience thing for joe, he can't remote control the inuke easily, but his AVR he can.
At the SPL joe listens to it shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm just pointing it out.

When we calibrated his inukes we were using my 105 and XSP-1 in direct mode, which bypasses everything and doesn't have a level adjustment for treble vs bass (both are kept equal).
We had the inuke dsp at +2db, and it's knob all the way UP.
We were running my XSP-1 at 22db below clipping (it outputs 16vRMS so voltage was not a problem), it's just that the treble-SPL was unreasonably loud so we didn't push it higher.
Joe's wiring is in-wall so we couldn't easily run XLR from the XSP-1 to the inuke (that would have been more optimal from a signal power perspective and that's how I run my stuff at home); joe uses RCA for the subs from his Pioneer (consumer vs pro gear) so it's totally different and I was attempting to adapt my stuff to how he runs it.


But regardless of all that now that I think about it, that's weird that he would have his bass at -10db, if our listening was done at 0db flat-bass but yet still had too much treble in.
Are you sure you don't run your AVR LFE at +10db joe or 0db with the treble at -10db? (Something doesn't add up here.)
Perhaps his wife gives him trouble for too much bass and he just doesn't want to admit it? Sounds logical to me, occam's razor, so that would be my guess! HAHA

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post #20 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 12:30 PM
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Neither have noticeable distortion at sane levels, however at higher SPL or on ULF sinewaves at healthy output the port noise was noticeable to me, to the point where it was perhaps even masking any driver noise that may have been present.
Personally I think I will be keeping my system as sealed or IB'ed forever, as I am just too anti-portnoise oriented to ever go ported.
PR's would take care of that, as well as greatly reducing the box volume lost to the big ports needed for low tuning..

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post #21 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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What changes were made to the iNuke?


The first thing we did was measure how joe had it configured and eq'ed (red),
I then disabled ALL inuke settings to get a native response (purple),
I then re-enabled the 20hz/18oct filter (blue)

Joe still needs to apply some NEW eq settings based on the graph he is now getting.

All measurements were taken at the golden seat, middle front row.
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post #22 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:01 PM
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I thinks it's more of a convenience thing for joe, he can't remote control the inuke easily, but his AVR he can.
At the SPL joe listens to it shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm just pointing it out.

When we calibrated his inukes we were using my 105 and XSP-1 in direct mode, which bypasses everything and doesn't have a level adjustment for treble vs bass (both are kept equal).
We had the inuke dsp at +2db, and it's knob all the way UP.
We were running my XSP-1 at 22db below clipping (it outputs 16vRMS so voltage was not a problem), it's just that the treble-SPL was unreasonably loud so we didn't push it higher.
Joe's wiring is in-wall so we couldn't easily run XLR from the XSP-1 to the inuke (that would have been more optimal from a signal power perspective and that's how I run my stuff at home); joe uses RCA for the subs from his Pioneer (consumer vs pro gear) so it's totally different and I was attempting to adapt my stuff to how he runs it.


But regardless of all that now that I think about it, that's weird that he would have his bass at -10db, if our listening was done at 0db flat-bass but yet still had too much treble in.
Are you sure you don't run your AVR LFE at +10db joe or 0db with the treble at -10db? (Something doesn't add up here.)
Perhaps his wife gives him trouble for too much bass and he just doesn't want to admit it? Sounds logical to me, occam's razor, so that would be my guess! HAHA
Yes, I can confirm that the AVR sub level is set at -10. Bumping it up to 0 is just way too loud, just using the white noise that my AVR puts out to level match the channels including the subs is just way too loud with them run at zero.
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post #23 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Looks like there was a lot of boost applied below tuning. This could have been responsible for the chuffing. Generally good practice to add a high pass just below tuning.

What changes were made to the iNuke?
Maybe you could help me EQ them a little better when you come out for the GTG Ryan?
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post #24 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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For comparison, this is what I get with my 4 sealed LMS's and 4 sealed UM's.

I don't have a cross-spectrum umik like joe does to bypass my soundcard issues etc etc, so I make no claim to the TRUE accuracy of this graph.

It's a ECM-8000 with generic compensation file, and loopback compensation file.
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post #25 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:11 PM
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Jbrown

Yes. Thats what I was trying to get at. Turn down the power amp 10db and turn up your receiver 10db to 0db. That way you will have a stronger signal and possibly less problems with noise and hum. Overall level from the sub will be the same.
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post #26 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Yes, I can confirm that the AVR sub level is set at -10. Bumping it up to 0 is just way too loud, just using the white noise that my AVR puts out to level match the channels including the subs is just way too loud with them run at zero.
Maybe the AVR applies a 10db LFE boost internally that is non-defeatable, that would make up the difference.

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post #27 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:14 PM
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When I had my two minimartys with my emotiva umc200 I had to have the bass at -6 dB's to get level with rest of my speakers. I can see why his need -10.
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post #28 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by splotten View Post
Jbrown

Yes. Thats what I was trying to get at. Turn down the power amp 10db and turn up your receiver 10db to 0db. That way you will have a stronger signal and possibly less problems with noise and hum. Overall level from the sub will be the same.
Definitely do that.

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post #29 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:21 PM
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Jbrown

Yes. Thats what I was trying to get at. Turn down the power amp 10db and turn up your receiver 10db to 0db. That way you will have a stronger signal and possibly less problems with noise and hum. Overall level from the sub will be the same.
Is there anyway you could maybe take a screen snapshot of the Behringer software up showing me how to do that?
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post #30 of 47 Old 07-06-2014, 01:29 PM
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Is there anyway you could maybe take a screen snapshot of the Behringer software up showing me how to do that?
I dont have an inuke. It has attenuators (volume knob) right at the face plate like any other pro amp. Just turn those down and the receiver up. Maybe the gain can be lowered internally in the DSP, I dont know, but look in the manual.
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