Dual Octal 18's Kick-Bin Build Thread - AVS Forum
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Old 07-06-2014, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Dual Octal 18's Kick-Bin Build Thread

For $600 I could be at the pink line vs where I am now (yellow).

Should I go for it?
Of course I should... I'm glad you agree with me!

11db louder... ~29cuft, two towers just over 6ft tall, corner loaded to gain even more SPL, high passed at ~30hz.
Only requires 2300watts but I will have 4200watts for them.

I've been planning it for sometime now, it will be a while before I can build these still, hopefully not "too" much longer...
Probably take me a solid two weeks to build it, start to finish.
Just thought I'd share the chart and create a thread ahead of schedule. (You know me, I always have that cart ahead of the horse; that's how I roll!!! )
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:03 PM
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Shawn, you should have Donny help you build these.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I probably should, cause I'm overwhelmed just thinking about routing out 16 18inch holes...
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:44 PM
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Post a drawing and pm me if you want info. With the drawing posted I can give you some building tips that will speed it up if you really want to build it.[emoji2]
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Basically this, but with 3 horizontal braces between the woofer sections.



It should thump good!
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:19 AM
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So basically the same thing that popalock built with his sixteen 18's?
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:21 AM
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Is this sealed ?
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Is this sealed ?

You've never seen the legendary popalock sixteen 18's setup?


16 x 18's in a 1500ft^3 Space - Popalock's Sub Build


Yes its sealed, hard to believe that crazy guy was going to add another sixteen 18's for a total of 32!
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:40 AM
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I'd probably double all four walls with pressure inside there. Easy build, just large,heavy, and about 4 sheets of MDF per tower.
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Old 07-07-2014, 07:41 AM
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Good luck bracing that .... Lol

Invest in some PL premium. It works better than Tightbond for sealing or filling gaps, and the bond strength is enough for lots of braces inside without needing to shoot brads.

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Old 07-07-2014, 07:42 AM
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Sealed subs are for cowards , you know you want to port at 13hz. Do it!

Or build 8 ghorns. If you like SPL that should do it. Way louder. Way cleaner. Plus you'll have about half you watts back to build more cabinets with

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Old 07-07-2014, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I probably should, cause I'm overwhelmed just thinking about routing out 16 18inch holes...
Get a router jig. Set the size on some cardboard or buy a $8 sheet of Masonite. Once you get it perfect and test move over to the real baffle. Should be easy. Might want a new router bit though, (8) 18" holes in 3/4" MDF is tough on cheap bits. If you go double baffle sheeting then this project would probably wear out a cheap router bit. The pro grade bits last longer but for the money I just consider them disposable. Buy a nice new one for this project. And an easy to use accurate circle jig. And some coffee.

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Old 07-07-2014, 08:20 AM
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These are sealed? How is this different than your current sealed boxes? Just more volume, so you need to high pass to limit excursion down low?
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Old 07-07-2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I'd probably double all four walls with pressure inside there. Easy build, just large,heavy, and about 4 sheets of MDF per tower.
Would you even need to brace the inside if you made all four wall double thick 3/4"? There's no way I could see those drivers flexing 1.5" thick of MDF. They would be crazy heavy though.
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Would you even need to brace the inside if you made all four wall double thick 3/4"? There's no way I could see those drivers flexing 1.5" thick of MDF. They would be crazy heavy though.
Using ultralight MDF the box with double walls would be 250 lbs. You would have to have front and back double so might as well do sides. Then just three braces and done. Need wheels on this baby for sure.
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:52 AM
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I can not ever find ultra light MDF. And the heavier stuff is still a little better I think anyways... I think ultralight is something you northwesterners have. We don't have it in New England. I can't find it anyways. I tried my local lumber yard, Home Depot, Lowes, 84, Grossmans etc... Nothing has it.

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Old 07-07-2014, 10:54 AM
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Yeah, where are you getting this gain from if you're just moving stuff to a different box?
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:35 AM
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Yeah, where are you getting this gain from if you're just moving stuff to a different box?
That is what I thought. Sealed staying sealed even if he doubled his drivers and wattage is only going to get a minuscule amount louder. Porting and picking up 12db at tune would be a much bigger difference. Chasing SPL with sealed subs is like a cat chasing it's own tail.

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Old 07-07-2014, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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It will be plywood, just like all my stuff. The front and back will be 1.5inches, the sides will be 3/4" with 3 large braces. I use this much bracing with all my projects with no problems.
It shouldn't weigh much more than my mains, maybe another 35lbs.
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I might convert two of my LMS's to ghorns in the future, which would make my ULF score go from this:

(note: I already have more output than 16 SI-18's.)

to this:

-0.7db @ 10hz, +1.8db @ 12.5hz, +5.1db @ 16hz, +4.5db @ 20hz

A lot of work for ~5db, and a massive reduction of single digit output.
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Old 07-07-2014, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I might convert two of my LMS's to ghorns in the future, which would make my ULF score go from this:

(note: I already have more output than 16 SI-18's.)

to this:

-0.7db @ 10hz, +1.8db @ 12.5hz, +5.1db @ 16hz, +4.5db @ 20hz

A lot of work for ~5db, and a massive reduction of single digit output.
Shawn, honestly I can't see it being worth the insane amount of extra work it would take to build two massive horns to gain 5dB.
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Old 07-07-2014, 09:22 PM
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I think he'd gain more than 5db. Ghorn is certainly louder than a sealed with same driver, and way beyond 5db. It's more like 14-16db from 16hz-28hz.

The difference is the thorn would actually sound good that loud. Pumping eq on a sealed sub to try to make it "flat" or louder lower only results in a lack of sound quality. It sounds worse. Driver works harder, distorts more, and more likely to hit excursion limits easier and at lower volumes. Amps also work harder, get hotter, and have increased distortion.

There is basically nothing you could do to make your sealed subs as clean at the ghorn would be within it's designed range. Horns are just cleaner and therefore sound better. They are also more violent which surprises me you don't have them; seems like your style. 8 thorns and I'm pretty sure you could claim loudest system on AVS easily. If you stack them and locate them right you'd have the same output at 10hz too. Anything under that is spinning your wheels anyways.

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Old 07-07-2014, 10:50 PM
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I love this place.

War Eagle!
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Old 07-08-2014, 11:20 AM
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Me too

BassthatHz is one of my favorite posters because:

-He is excessive. Excess always wins!
-He is interesting, and never boring.
-He is passionate about his audio

Even if I question some of the crazy stuff he does I like following it

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Old 07-08-2014, 11:36 AM
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Mfusik, you're keeping the number of drivers out of the equation. I don't have to eq at all to get to 10hz with my sealed 12" subs, so I'm not sure what you're basing your post on. The ghorn is a great device, but it has different goals than a sealed system.
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Old 07-08-2014, 11:36 AM
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I'm still not sure, like notnyt, what this build is?
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Mfusik, you're keeping the number of drivers out of the equation. I don't have to eq at all to get to 10hz with my sealed 12" subs, so I'm not sure what you're basing your post on. The ghorn is a great device, but it has different goals than a sealed system.
Hey you are right! I wasn't factoring in multiple drivers (which obviously help things).

I am basing it on the general assumption everyone seems to go "flat" where they want the 10hz response equal to 20hz, 30hz, 40hz etc... Gotta get that chart and post your lie on the internet right ? Bragging rights! Make sure it's at a reduced volume though so the distortion doesn't show!

To do this you need to boost the lower frequencies. Otherwise 10hz is lower in SPL than say 40hz (this is natural with most drivers in sealed set ups).

So the problem isn't so much a problem for the moderate folks that listen at lower levels and volumes; you can do this reasonably and as long as you don't go too loud the drive and system should handle it. But for a bass head like BassthatHz if you want to go loud applying EQ down low really isn't ideal for output, distortion, sound quality... you name it. You are far more likely to push the driver or hit limits or increase distortion sooner or at lower volumes.

Chasing flat single digit bass often means capping the volume of your system before damage or it sounds bad. I know a lot of folks like BassthatHz use really nice stuff (expensive drivers, powerful amps etc) so you can do this to some degree but realistically it's an expensive proposition chasing single digit bass above reference volumes; it's not for most people.

If you want volume or SPL then ported or horns are better. Below 10hz doesn't really provide any benefit anyways. Just buy some transducers and move on.

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Old 07-08-2014, 12:42 PM
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You mean flat to 10hz anechoic? Cause I'm flat to 10hz in room without eq. You're right, single digits is expensive. But certainly attainable. You're wrong that they provide no benefit. So really it's your opinion that the ghorn is a better setup for bassthathz. He himself stated the output would come at the expense of single digits.

Edit - I do use eq, just not LF boosts like an LT or anything. Just room corrections above 40hz. Some people do need some though.

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Old 07-08-2014, 01:04 PM
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Room gain generally offsets the roll-off on sealed so they're flat pretty low, unless your room is really big / open.
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Old 07-08-2014, 01:05 PM
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You mean flat to 10hz anechoic? Cause I'm flat to 10hz in room without eq. You're right, single digits is expensive. But certainly attainable. You're wrong that they provide no benefit. So really it's your opinion that the ghorn is a better setup for bassthathz. He himself stated the output would come at the expense of single digits.

Edit - I do use eq, just not LF boosts like an LT or anything. Just room corrections above 40hz. Some people do need some though.
Don't get me wrong I am not criticizing you or anyone else or what they do. Sorry if I came across like that.

My idea was more that BassthatHz is looking to build new cabinets and he likes excessive bass so he might like something a bit more extreme. Secretly I think I want to see him do it too. I guess I can be honest and admit that

I think he he had both side by side he would find he liked the horn better because of the increased output, lower distortion, and violent yet effortlessness of it all. I know he might lose some response from 6hz-10hz but I think he would not miss that.

The research I did in finding out if you feel lower bass and ULF suggested that it's actually 10hz-20hz that you feel most, and below 10hz you really don't get much feeling from that. The horns output at 10hz would be on par with his current output at 10hz now anyways, he would not be missing much. As a transducer that does 1hz-9hz and live happy with excessive bass. That seems his style.

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