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post #1 of 24 Old 07-09-2014, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Seos 12 MINIMUS

Hi guys,

I'm currently running SEOS 12 with 12" woofer crossed at lowish 1khz. At first it was Faital 12PR300 and now Beyma 12MI100, wich is a tad faster around 500-1000-khz. I'm crossing very low. The lower I cross and with shalower slopes the better sound I get. But I'm still feeling that in this region (500-1000hz) it could be even cleaner and faster.

Now I'm thinking about going even further and try to cross a smaller and lighter 8" woofer, such as Eminence Beta 8a, and try to cross it as low as possible. I know that 1khz is to low for 8" woofer and something like 1800hz is porobably perfect for ideal off axis response. But I'm not getting all so crazy about constant directivity. It doesn't have to be PERFECT. Good enough is enough.

So what do you guys think? How low can I cross an 8" woofer and SEOS 12 with DE250 in it? I'm thinking 1200hz. I've seen such a crossover point in top of the range Zingali loudspeakers but their waveguide is a little different. They claim that it's more like 120 degree waveguide intead of ours 90x40 degrees.
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post #2 of 24 Old 07-09-2014, 06:16 AM
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900hz. Directivity won't be perfect. But it won't be bad.

I too have found crossing my 12" woofer low is the best sound.
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post #3 of 24 Old 07-09-2014, 06:26 AM
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So what exactly do you hope to achieve by going from those nice 12" Beyma's and Faital's to the significantly cheaper 8" Eminence drivers?
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post #4 of 24 Old 07-09-2014, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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THX tux
So what I'm reading beetween the lines is that, you propose to use woofer below the point when it becomes directional nad just cross SEOS as low as possible?
Transition in directivity beetween "omni" and SEOS'es 90degrees would still be there but a lot steeper because it would be determined only by shallow crossover and not by matching directivities?
Or there is something more to it ?

>Martycool007

Two goals actually.
1.Better midrange clarity
2.More pinpoint imaging

As for 2nd point. In my experience the smaller the driver, the smaller soudsources on soundstage -> more air beetween them.
The same for acoustic center of the drivers. The closer they they are the better and more pinpoint imaging is.

I'm sitting about 10 feet from speakers and I'm using them mostly for music so it maters to me.
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post #5 of 24 Old 07-09-2014, 07:33 AM
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That's what I'm saying, but I'm not saying you must cross at 900hz, just that's the lowest I'd go. I've used it at 900hx and it was fine. 1200 hz would be fine also.
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post #6 of 24 Old 07-09-2014, 10:37 AM
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great thread title : )


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post #7 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 03:53 AM
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So why not go with an AE TD12 or something similar from AE? Wouldn't that be a significant step up from the Beyma and Faital Pro? I am not sure if AE offers a 10" in the TD series. I would bet that an AE TD10 would give you better mid-range quality, although I am not sure about the pinpoint imagining.

I have never heard that having a smaller driver for the mid's in a 2-way would produce a better SQ in that region, care to explain the theory behind that comment?

I do think that you are correct with regards to having closer spacing of the acoustic center of the drivers as that would be of a decent benefit, just not sure about the other stuff. I am not saying that you are wrong as you are obviously more experienced than myself, I am mostly just curious about your statements that you made in post number 4.
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post #8 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think it would be a major step up. Build quality? Yes. Lower distortion? Yes. Better bass. Definitly. But still it is a very large paper crossed very high. At some point every membrane starts to break up. I case of both my 12" and AE TD12 break up is very mild and spread (damped) over wide spectrum od frequencies. The bigger the membrane the lower break up begins. There's some loss in clarity due to break up.
Coclusion from experiments that I executed (so as Tux'es) are that the lower you cut the more clarity you get (now it's 1khz with shallow slope). And that's for a reason.

Sometimes it is also said that lighter membrane is easier to move (start/stop) for amplifier but I'm not sure it is true. Magnet and amp also play a role here.

Most clear vocal range for example comes from small midranges like 4". It also lacks mass and body, but it shows the relationship. For many reviewers and designers (for example Troels Gravesen or Srajan Ebean) an 8" midrange is the best compromise beetween tone and clarity. Same goes for imaging and size of soundsources om soundstage. Try to listen to very small bookshelves. Tiny sources and LOTS of air beetween them. Very impressive but also not natural.

On the other side of spectrum try to audition BIG horn speakers like Avantgarde Acoustics or JBL EVEREST or SEOS24 in small room. Thats how it is done in Japan. Sources are far to big. Female singers lips having a size of a piano? Gargantuan musicians squeesed on small space? Well if someone likes it - be my guest. There is the same relationship when it comes to baffles. The wider it gets - image becomes less pinpoint.

Of course EVERYTHING depends on how big is your room. How wide are your speakers spread and how close you sit!!!!

What I'm talking here is pure audiophile view. I'm running my speakers with 4watt tube amp (>100hz. Bass is active)
Home cinema is a different beast with it's requirments. You need very high SPL and very wide sweet spot.

Last edited by fakamada; 07-10-2014 at 07:31 AM.
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post #9 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 06:52 AM
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Why not do a 3-way then?
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post #10 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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3 way it is. Crossover points 100hz, 1000hz. Bas is active DSP-driven.
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post #11 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 08:04 AM
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I use the TD10M and a 3 way makes no sense to me with the midrange that the TD drivers have.

I run subs under 70hz
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post #12 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
I use the TD10M and a 3 way makes no sense to me with the midrange that the TD drivers have.

I run subs under 70hz
So we both go the same way. Your using subs so in my mind your setup is what I'd call "semi active 3way"
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post #13 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 10:12 AM
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A sub system gets placed where bass is optimized unlike a 3 way system where the woofers are placed where the mains are. This puts the bass away from optimum boundary reinforcement locations in non-optimum locations.

Regardless, the TD6M and TD8M may be suitable mid-ranges for your design but I doubt there are many mid-ranges that will beat a TD10M or TD12M coupled to the Seos 12. You are losing efficiency for no reason.
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post #14 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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As much as I admire build quality, motor technology and looks (oh the looks) of AE drivers I don't see any reason why they'd have better midrange when listening at normal listening levels. In my situation with active subs below 100hz and no baffle step compensation, in practice 12" midwoofers almost do not move. So even I'm not getting even close to xmax, where better motor would be useful.

Having said that, I'd LOVE to use TD10M or TD8M in my project but they are very expensive and unobtainable in Europe.
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post #15 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 12:56 PM
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I wasn't overly impressed with the Eminence 12 I heard at jbrown's compared to his JTR mids.

I use a Celestion 15 with a high overlap ~950hz & ~2000hz between the SEOS12 and Cel 15.
Mine are a 3-way speaker, bass overlap is ~120hz & ~200hz betwen Cel 15 and UM-15; which seems to increase clarity of vocals not having to drive the mid to 40hz or lower.

I think my B&W FST mids are 1-5% more resolving and transparent at mids than the Cel 15 is, but the B&W is like 9db or so less efficient (as I understand), so I'm not sure if it would mesh well in a 4-way design.

A lot of work just to gain 1-5% clarity, one that might not actually work very well in the end...
The pursuit of perfection is a tough long road.

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post #16 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fakamada View Post
As much as I admire build quality, motor technology and looks (oh the looks) of AE drivers I don't see any reason why they'd have better midrange when listening at normal listening levels.
How loud a driver plays is also an indication of head room available at lower levels.

If cost is an issue, a cheap woofer + a cheap midrange and the associated 4 channels of active amps are more expensive than 2 TD drivers and 2 amp channels. Shipping could be expensive. I chose the TD drivers once I found that looking for 2 8's was more expensive. Headroom and efficiency were the deciding factors for me.

In this build, the TD12M measures lower distortion than the compression drivers they were paired with.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...hp?topic=257.0
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post #17 of 24 Old 07-20-2014, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fakamada View Post
I don't think it would be a major step up. Build quality? Yes. Lower distortion? Yes. Better bass. Definitly. But still it is a very large paper crossed very high.
Dunno what XO you're referring to, but Bill Waslo's XO for the TD12M/DNA360 is 1200 Hz IIRC.

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post #18 of 24 Old 07-21-2014, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm referring to 1khz-1.5khz range.

Last edited by fakamada; 07-21-2014 at 02:58 AM.
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post #19 of 24 Old 07-21-2014, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fakamada View Post
I don't think it would be a major step up. Build quality? Yes. Lower distortion? Yes. Better bass. Definitly. But still it is a very large paper crossed very high. At some point every membrane starts to break up. I case of both my 12" and AE TD12 break up is very mild and spread (damped) over wide spectrum od frequencies. The bigger the membrane the lower break up begins. There's some loss in clarity due to break up.
Coclusion from experiments that I executed (so as Tux'es) are that the lower you cut the more clarity you get (now it's 1khz with shallow slope). And that's for a reason.

Sometimes it is also said that lighter membrane is easier to move (start/stop) for amplifier but I'm not sure it is true. Magnet and amp also play a role here.

Most clear vocal range for example comes from small midranges like 4". It also lacks mass and body, but it shows the relationship. For many reviewers and designers (for example Troels Gravesen or Srajan Ebean) an 8" midrange is the best compromise beetween tone and clarity. Same goes for imaging and size of soundsources om soundstage. Try to listen to very small bookshelves. Tiny sources and LOTS of air beetween them. Very impressive but also not natural.

On the other side of spectrum try to audition BIG horn speakers like Avantgarde Acoustics or JBL EVEREST or SEOS24 in small room. Thats how it is done in Japan. Sources are far to big. Female singers lips having a size of a piano? Gargantuan musicians squeesed on small space? Well if someone likes it - be my guest. There is the same relationship when it comes to baffles. The wider it gets - image becomes less pinpoint.

Of course EVERYTHING depends on how big is your room. How wide are your speakers spread and how close you sit!!!!

What I'm talking here is pure audiophile view. I'm running my speakers with 4watt tube amp (>100hz. Bass is active)
Home cinema is a different beast with it's requirments. You need very high SPL and very wide sweet spot.
You state that the wider the baffle in turn the less pinpoint the image turns out to be. Can you elaborate a little on why this is? Are you speaking strictly for music usage? If that is the case, then why do so many people have baffle walls with flush mounted LCR's? In a baffle wall the width of the baffle is huge compared to not having a baffle wall!
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post #20 of 24 Old 07-21-2014, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm speaking purely about music usage. All of this soundstage/dimensional stuff is much, much more important here because you don't have video. If you're watching and listenig at the same time, it's THE sense of sight that always dominates and sets the proportions and soundstage for your brain.


Quote:
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You state that the wider the baffle in turn the less pinpoint the image turns out to be. Can you elaborate a little on why this is?
Probably because wavefront has different shape. You can read more here:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Acapella_WB.htm



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If that is the case, then why do so many people have baffle walls with flush mounted LCR's? In a baffle wall the width of the baffle is huge compared to not having a baffle wall!
As stated above. For cinema purpuses - it's ok. For music it's unaccaptable in terms of soundstaging depth.
And I don't think many audiophiles are using this kind of setup.
Regular speakers - even waveguide/horn speaker always sounstage better if they're at least 1 meter away from front wall.
I've read many times that they play well even touching the front wall but that is NOT TRUE. Just try it. Pull your speakers 1.5m into the room and compare soundstage/imaging. You'll see the major imrovement.

Last edited by fakamada; 07-21-2014 at 06:21 AM.
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post #21 of 24 Old 08-12-2014, 08:51 PM
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Have you considered something like the elusive 1099? http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...sive-1099.html

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post #22 of 24 Old 08-13-2014, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fakamada View Post
I'm speaking purely about music usage. All of this soundstage/dimensional stuff is much, much more important here because you don't have video. If you're watching and listenig at the same time, it's THE sense of sight that always dominates and sets the proportions and soundstage for your brain.




Probably because wavefront has different shape. You can read more here:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Acapella_WB.htm





As stated above. For cinema purpuses - it's ok. For music it's unaccaptable in terms of soundstaging depth.
And I don't think many audiophiles are using this kind of setup.
Regular speakers - even waveguide/horn speaker always sounstage better if they're at least 1 meter away from front wall.
I've read many times that they play well even touching the front wall but that is NOT TRUE. Just try it. Pull your speakers 1.5m into the room and compare soundstage/imaging. You'll see the major imrovement.
So basically what are you saying is that if is not optimal to have your mains (LCR's) in a baffle wall, unless you only watch movies? I have always been in the camp that what sounds good for music also sounds good for theater useafe, but, not vice versa, that is, assuming that both speakers are capable of decent SPL in a medium sized room.

With that being said, for me, if having the LCR speakers outside if the baffle wall and this caused better, more pin-point imaging, then if would be my choice because I love to hear movies on speakers that throw a beautifull, enveloping sound stage, with excellent imaging, and come to think of it. I have never liked inwall purpose designed speakers, such as the Klipsch 7800 THX speaker. It just sounded like it had no soundstage, nor any decent envelopment into the scene !

Would building say. the Tempest into a baffle wall give a similar result AAS above? What about the benefits of flush mounting your LCR into a baffle wall? ie: no baffle step required, better low end, and no edge diffraction.

The reason that I ask is because I was or am planning to building my Seos-15's into a baffle walll, but screw that if it will mess with the soundstage and imagining!
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post #23 of 24 Old 08-13-2014, 05:19 AM
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Have you considered a 3-way with a mid-horn? Wayne Parham has published a design. This is the best way to maintain controlled directivity, efficiency, and encompass the majority of the vocal range with a point source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fakamada View Post
As stated above. For cinema purpuses - it's ok. For music it's unaccaptable in terms of soundstaging depth.
And I don't think many audiophiles are using this kind of setup.
Regular speakers - even waveguide/horn speaker always sounstage better if they're at least 1 meter away from front wall.
I've read many times that they play well even touching the front wall but that is NOT TRUE. Just try it. Pull your speakers 1.5m into the room and compare soundstage/imaging. You'll see the major imrovement.
Some of your assumptions here are based on good theory but draw the wrong conclusions from common practices in the home environment.

Most Professional Studios worth their salt has baffle mounted high level critical listening monitors. Baffle mounting does nothing to diminish pinpoint imaging.

Just google music studio and see the images. They always have small nearfields commonly in varying positions for bass balance in mixing though.



The reason you move the speakers away from the wall is a band-aid to fix the actual problem produced by the speakers not being mounted in a baffle wall to begin with(Allison Effect, SBIR, etc.), or to reduce a midbass bump induced by the boundary reinforcement coupled with BS compensation in the crossover. Either way its a band-aid.

However, late arrival reflections can be beneficial(>20ms), especially in music listening to produce envelopment. This is especially true with two channel setups due to the lower number of sources and subsequent reflections.
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post #24 of 24 Old 08-13-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post
Have you considered a 3-way with a mid-horn? Wayne Parham has published a design. This is the best way to maintain controlled directivity, efficiency, and encompass the majority of the vocal range with a point source.



Some of your assumptions here are based on good theory but draw the wrong conclusions from common practices in the home environment.

Most Professional Studios worth their salt has baffle mounted high level critical listening monitors. Baffle mounting does nothing to diminish pinpoint imaging.

Just google music studio and see the images. They always have small nearfields commonly in varying positions for bass balance in mixing though.



The reason you move the speakers away from the wall is a band-aid to fix the actual problem produced by the speakers not being mounted in a baffle wall to begin with(Allison Effect, SBIR, etc.), or to reduce a midbass bump induced by the boundary reinforcement coupled with BS compensation in the crossover. Either way its a band-aid.

However, late arrival reflections can be beneficial(>20ms), especially in music listening to produce envelopment. This is especially true with two channel setups due to the lower number of sources and subsequent reflections.

+1

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