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post #1 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Advice ; goal is 8-10hz flat at -15 reference

I see a great deal of emphasis on multisub systems, 18" drivers in attempts at 110db+ into infrasonics...it seems as though all the money spent is merely on the output chase for reference level or pure overkill..

My taste of volume with movie playback is more moderate across the output spectrum as my theatre room is small, with the LP (.55 inside the room) 6 feet from lcr frontstage, yet I do seek the lowest hz i can with the sub solution! I'm after some advice harsh or otherwise about the goal, but no sense in telling me I should need to hit 115 with 2kw amps because ill never utilize that . By all my understanding I only need the sub to be capable of 95db.

Few details.. 1500cuft room, 4.1m long, 3.7 wide, concrete walls in new australian home. Sub can be at any placement (I will purchase meter/mics along way to navigare that) - nearfield capable for sure - Smooth response over *entire* room not needed. Room modes to be wrangled by some corner traps and if needed a hsu MBM to reduce a single being taxed.

Id love some idea of direction. Currently I am leaning to the svs-sb2000 but posting in the DIY because im not ruling out that route and I have a sense folks here could help me out with my goal .

Note; I have combed over the sealed build threads lurking for years but they seem to either aim for massive spl into infra or massive spl disregarding below 20 flatness. I cant seem to find inspiration in copying others efforts. Hence my request for advice

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post #2 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alyssanick View Post
Note; I have combed over the sealed build threads but they seem to either aim for massive spl into infra or massive spl disregarding below 20 flatness. I cant seem to find inspiration in copying others efforts. Hence my request for advice
Well you're not exactly going to be building anything groundbreaking here.

Get a pair of high excursion 15s and put them into a dual opposed sealed enclosure. Power with an NU3000DSP. Jobs done.
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post #3 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 04:57 PM
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Yup. What he just said.

I might suggest 18" woofers, something good. But two 18" sealed off an iNUKE with DPS. Done. Not having a high SPL requirement makes the job so much easier.

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post #4 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 05:03 PM
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"but no sense in telling me I should need to hit 115 with 2kw amps because ill never utilize that"


ok. some things to consider though:


1. you don't want to be running your system to the max, so 3-6db of headroom is good.
2. 95db is really loud for midrange spl
3. our ears are much less sensitive to bass than midrange, so for the same 'loudness' level, much higher spl in the bass is required. this shows up in the spectral content of music, where (even with no bass boosting), the bass tends to run 10db or so higher in level than the midband
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletche...3Munson_curves


4. redirecting the bass from several speakers into the subwoofer increases the output from the subwoofer by that much as well, so add another 3-6db for this.


so, even with your stated max spl of 95db 'listening volume' peak, the bass energy requirement is something closer to 115db total.


an inuke3000dsp amp (~2kw power, $300), 18" si 18ht driver (~$200), and a large ported enclosure ($50DIY) can get you there for about $500, so it doesn't have to break the bank. adding a second driver and cab ($250) smooths room modes and make for a more effortless presentation and will handily outperform even internet direct sub offerings. your challenge is to select a form factor that best blends with your room.


the goal of 10hz at -15db from reference might be worth revisiting, as that might not even be detectable in most rooms.
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post #5 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"but no sense in telling me I should need to hit 115 with 2kw amps because ill never utilize that"


the goal of 10hz at -15db from reference might be worth revisiting, as that might not even be detectable in most rooms.
As far as I'm concerned this is the only thing to consider based on your stated goal and I came into this thread to note this, but Ltd02 already did. You won't be able to detect 10Hz at 90 or 95dB unless you have big flappy ears and a trunk. Don't bother, reset your low frequency goal to audible frequencies if you don't plan to boost them high enough to feel them. Say 15-18Hz as the bottom expectation for the most optimal of human listening ears. You feel the lower frequencies, but have to boost them heavily to do so. Not flat.

Something like a HSU vtf 3 mk 4 in the ID market would likely be a good match and not too expensive.
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post #6 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 06:02 PM
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Dual UM-15's or HO-18's would make a great starter system.
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post #7 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 06:10 PM
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I'd like to suggest something different. I'm not a reference level listener either. And I do target ULF. I use 3 up down dual opposed 12" cabs (6 drivers total). I do this to:

1. Achieve ULF at about -15db.
2. Smooth response with 3 cabs.
3. Reduce cab vibration with the dual opposed.
4. Get the drivers within 18" of nearby boundaries (floor and walls) with the up down.
5. Keep the cabs small with the relatively small 12" driver size.

Ultimately I've been successful and I do find the feel of the ULF is perceivable and enjoyable.
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post #8 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Appreciate the posts guys. Nice info. Few things. My first post wasnt ultra concise.

1. Room is no more than 1500 cuft (13.5ft x 12ft). Most peoples book this is small then once you add thick treatments and blu-ray storage protruding off back wall..
2. Nearfield placement likely 3-4ft dist. [sub(s) behind couch]
3. 95db @ midrange wouldn't be my aim. Saying "flat" was probly an unintentional attention grab. I would aim roughly smooth reaponse 20hz up, 70+20 (90db) in line with my -15. Boosting below 20 as power allows.
4. Really.. 95db @10hz is useless or is the dissuading more that there will be less impact than an uber system from the elite on here?? Because having never had a system thats played below 20 useable im a case of 'I dont know any better', and coming from perth Australia I dont go to home theatre meets .
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post #9 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
As far as I'm concerned this is the only thing to consider based on your stated goal and I came into this thread to note this, but Ltd02 already did. You won't be able to detect 10Hz at 90 or 95dB unless you have big flappy ears and a trunk. Don't bother, reset your low frequency goal to audible frequencies if you don't plan to boost them high enough to feel them. Say 15-18Hz as the bottom expectation for the most optimal of human listening ears. You feel the lower frequencies, but have to boost them heavily to do so. Not flat.

Something like a HSU vtf 3 mk 4 in the ID market would likely be a good match and not too expensive.

I'm mostly car audio but I know if i want low i have to send out a sub to do it alone and back up the higher bass with another sub...then tune it big time. I'm about to fit out an 18" for narrow bandwidth down low and a 15" for the rest. 18 tuned at 4db gain 20-40 aprox and 15 does the rest and cut off at 80 which is about where I can
tell the stage moves to subwoofers. Even then the 80hz will be rolled off by half and midrange will grab the other half. I have a lot of ideas but only by testing them can I come back here and say the results. 18 will run 6th order and 15 vented for now...imagine the fun I'm having with getting group delay tight in a workvan that still has to function as one! Running 6000rms and planning for 16000. Port Mach and distances are doing my head in but....it is a hobby lol
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post #10 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 07:08 PM
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I've tested frequencies below 15Hz or so at desertdomes, gorilla83, carp, and popalocks. Tests using minidsp, dcx-2496 etc. Removing all frequencies above 14, 15 16Hz, 18hz... in my opinion if you don't boost the low frequencies with a strong house curve it just doesn't matter. And until it's fairly high dB (much higher than -10 or -15dB) you can't notice them anyway -----even in the most potent of movie clips (black hawk down, hulk, etc) all four of the rooms we tested this in are filled with multiple 15s or 18s.

Desertdome - eight 15" AE subwoofers in infinite baffle and J-River as LPF. Removed all frequencies above 14hz. Desertdome will tell you below about 14Hz doesn't matter to him. (Wooden main floor, old 1900's era built house)

Gorilla83 - tested with three submersive hp subs with a 18 hz HPF on and off - IIRC. Removed all frequencies below 18hz, played the same clip again with those frequencies. Two ported captivators in 15Hz tune had quite a bit more tactile feel on the same clips than the three submersives with no hpf. With hpf on or off the difference was like 5% at most with demos of the hulk using the three submersives. I wish we would have retested with a lpf at that meet since there were so many people there. --- or perhaps a 14 or 15hz HPF instead of a 18hz HPF. If I recall correctly - we were using a Behringer DCX-2496. (concrete slab of basement new house)

Carp - 8 SI sealed, played with a lot of LPF settings using minidsp. carp thinks nothing below about 14Hz matters even with 8 SI. (concrete slab of basement, modern house)

Popalock - played with a 14hz LPF with a minidsp and 16, 18" sealed SI subwoofers. The room shakes and certain precise spots do crazy things, but I wasn't even impressed with subsonic ULF even there. Apparently popalock wants more...he bought 16 more for a total of 32 eighteens. (concrete slab of basement, modern house)

For me ULF to 10 Hz or below is a forum novelty, nothing more. I feel a bit like the child in the emporers clothes story when people talk about chasing the super low ULF. If 16, 18" subwoofers in a 1500 cubic foot space at popalocks couldn't convince me if the merits of ULF, when testing with a LPF, I personally don't think it's worth pursuit.

Just my observations.

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Last edited by Archaea; 07-21-2014 at 08:27 PM.
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post #11 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys loving your input. Specially archaea. Thats some comprehensive testimony

For sure I am torn. For this build ill never be able to replicate any of the basshead setups we see in order to discover wether I agree or disagree. The dual opposed ideas are tempting. I could do a dual opposed 15s and buy an hsu MBM and let the 15s handle 50hz down to whatever.

Can someone (or notnyt himself) confirm what exactly the consensus is for 'high' excursion?

25mm xmax? Higher?
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post #12 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I've tested frequencies below 15Hz or so at desertdomes, gorilla83, carp, and popalocks. Tests using minidsp, dcx-2496 etc. Removing all frequencies above 14, 15 16Hz, 18hz... in my opinion if you don't boost the low frequencies with a strong house curve it just doesn't matter. And until it's fairly high dB (much higher than -10 or -15dB) you can't notice them anyway -----even in the most potent of movie clips (black hawk down, hulk, etc) all four of the rooms we tested this in are filled with multiple 15s or 18s.

Desertdome - eight 15" ae subwoofers and j-river as lpf. Removed all frequencies above 14hz. Desertdome will tell you below about 14Hz doesn't matter to him.

Gorilla83 - tested with three submersive hp subs with a 18 hz hpf or not IIRC. Two ported captivators in 15Hz tune had quite a bit more tactile feel on the same clips than the three submersives with no hpf. With hpf on or off the difference was like 5% at most with demos of the hulk. I wish we would have retested with a lpf at that meet since there were so many people there.

Carp - 8 si sealed, played with a lot of lpf settings. carp thinks nothing below about 14Hz matters even with 8 Si.

Popalock - played with a 14hz lpf with a mini dsp and 16, 18" sealed SI subwoofers. The room shakes and certain precise spots do crazy things, but I wasn't even impressed with Ulf there. Apparently popalock wants more...he bought 16 more for a total of 32 eighteens.

For me ULF to 10 Hz or below is a forum novelty, nothing more. I feel a bit like the child in the emporers clothes story when people talk about chasing the super low ulf. If 16, 18" subwoofers in a 1500 cubic foot space at popalocks couldn't convince me if the merits of ULF, when testing with a lot, I personally don't think it's worth pursuit.

Just my observations.
You have the best posts. I heard the funk 18.2 yesterday and finally felt the 10-15 hz output that everyone talks about. It was cool but honestly I am fine with being good down to 18 hz. My smaller ported sub's have usuable bass down to there. Would rather go on a nice vacation then chase ulf.
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post #13 of 61 Old 07-20-2014, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I've tested frequencies below 15Hz or so at desertdomes, gorilla83, carp, and popalocks. Tests using minidsp, dcx-2496 etc. Removing all frequencies above 14, 15 16Hz, 18hz... in my opinion if you don't boost the low frequencies with a strong house curve it just doesn't matter. And until it's fairly high dB (much higher than -10 or -15dB) you can't notice them anyway -----even in the most potent of movie clips (black hawk down, hulk, etc) all four of the rooms we tested this in are filled with multiple 15s or 18s.

Desertdome - eight 15" ae subwoofers and j-river as lpf. Removed all frequencies above 14hz. Desertdome will tell you below about 14Hz doesn't matter to him.

Gorilla83 - tested with three submersive hp subs with a 18 hz hpf or not IIRC. Two ported captivators in 15Hz tune had quite a bit more tactile feel on the same clips than the three submersives with no hpf. With hpf on or off the difference was like 5% at most with demos of the hulk. I wish we would have retested with a lpf at that meet since there were so many people there.

Carp - 8 si sealed, played with a lot of lpf settings. carp thinks nothing below about 14Hz matters even with 8 Si.

Popalock - played with a 14hz lpf with a mini dsp and 16, 18" sealed SI subwoofers. The room shakes and certain precise spots do crazy things, but I wasn't even impressed with Ulf there. Apparently popalock wants more...he bought 16 more for a total of 32 eighteens.

For me ULF to 10 Hz or below is a forum novelty, nothing more. I feel a bit like the child in the emporers clothes story when people talk about chasing the super low ulf. If 16, 18" subwoofers in a 1500 cubic foot space at popalocks couldn't convince me if the merits of ULF, when testing with a lptf, I personally don't think it's worth pursuit.

Just my observations.
And this is pretty much exactly why I decided on a 14-15hz port tune on my monster ported cabinets. Don't get me wrong, they still have crazy output down to 10hz, but I was aiming for massive output at 15hz and higher.
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post #14 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:20 AM
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I can get some feel down to 10hz on my second row riser but it's subtle. I think people would be so much better off getting a Crowson transducer to feel the ULF stuff. It's the exact same feeling (well, at least to me it is) just stronger.

Shoot, even "all the way" up to 17hz it's the same. That long drawn out 17hz centered note on Bass I Love you feels identical with my subs and Crowson. I don't hear hardly anything but the couch shakes like crazy.

Now, get much above that and it's a different experience. The feel/slam of the subs is something that can't be re-created by a transducer at those frequencies - BUT - the Crowson still realistically adds to the experience. I even like to have it on up to 80hz for music (I cross at 40hz for movies). If it's not turned up very loud no one would guess I have it on, it's similar to being on a suspended floor IMO.

At some point this post turned into a Crowson commercial.
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post #15 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
And this is pretty much exactly why I decided on a 14-15hz port tune on my monster ported cabinets. Don't get me wrong, they still have crazy output down to 10hz, but I was aiming for massive output at 15hz and higher.
Makes perfect sense. It worked out about the same for me as far as ported vs. sealed, because I don't want to take up any more space in my room with subs and if I had ported subs where my sealed subs are I would have cabinets twice as big and half the drivers so I believe my output would be about the same I think.
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post #16 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 03:00 AM
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Going below 15hz is kind of a waste of time and money.
and going below 10hz is near-impossible, especially for cheap.
15hz is plenty low.
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post #17 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I'd like to suggest something different. I'm not a reference level listener either. And I do target ULF. I use 3 up down dual opposed 12" cabs (6 drivers total). I do this to:

1. Achieve ULF at about -15db.
2. Smooth response with 3 cabs.
3. Reduce cab vibration with the dual opposed.
4. Get the drivers within 18" of nearby boundaries (floor and walls) with the up down.
5. Keep the cabs small with the relatively small 12" driver size.

Ultimately I've been successful and I do find the feel of the ULF is perceivable and enjoyable.

How would this set compare to a Marty?

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post #18 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I've tested frequencies below 15Hz or so at desertdomes, gorilla83, carp, and popalocks. Tests using minidsp, dcx-2496 etc. Removing all frequencies above 14, 15 16Hz, 18hz... in my opinion if you don't boost the low frequencies with a strong house curve it just doesn't matter. And until it's fairly high dB (much higher than -10 or -15dB) you can't notice them anyway -----even in the most potent of movie clips (black hawk down, hulk, etc) all four of the rooms we tested this in are filled with multiple 15s or 18s.

Desertdome - eight 15" ae subwoofers and j-river as lpf. Removed all frequencies above 14hz. Desertdome will tell you below about 14Hz doesn't matter to him.

Gorilla83 - tested with three submersive hp subs with a 18 hz hpf or not IIRC. Two ported captivators in 15Hz tune had quite a bit more tactile feel on the same clips than the three submersives with no hpf. With hpf on or off the difference was like 5% at most with demos of the hulk. I wish we would have retested with a lpf at that meet since there were so many people there.

Carp - 8 si sealed, played with a lot of lpf settings. carp thinks nothing below about 14Hz matters even with 8 Si.

Popalock - played with a 14hz lpf with a mini dsp and 16, 18" sealed SI subwoofers. The room shakes and certain precise spots do crazy things, but I wasn't even impressed with Ulf there. Apparently popalock wants more...he bought 16 more for a total of 32 eighteens.

For me ULF to 10 Hz or below is a forum novelty, nothing more. I feel a bit like the child in the emporers clothes story when people talk about chasing the super low ulf. If 16, 18" subwoofers in a 1500 cubic foot space at popalocks couldn't convince me if the merits of ULF, when testing with a lpf, I personally don't think it's worth pursuit.

Just my observations.

Dude I love your posts... Thumbs up.

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post #19 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 08:08 AM
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I have a single SubMersive HP in a room that is 1000cf. I am flat down to at least 15hz. My room is also pretty well treated. I also added a Crowson transducer to my system that goes down to 5Hz. I am not going to lie. Having that extra tactile feel is really neat. What the Crowson allowed me to do was to watch movies at a lower overall level and still feel the bass. Did I need it. Not really. A single SubMersive HP in my room is very impressive on it's own. But when I actually felt the shake from the Crowson, it just made my smile a little bit bigger. I should also note that my peaks in movies are probably not that extreme. So I like having that extra tactile feel. Did I have to get it? No. Am I glad I bought the Crowson to augment my SubMersive? Yes.
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post #20 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
How would this set compare to a Marty?
I've only heard Joe's Marty somethings. Not sure which. But they're the big ones with the UXL18.

My way of doing it compared to a single? ported....

Ported is probably going to be cheaper since only one driver, only one box to build and place, and higher output from tuning up to usually around 30 or 40hz. My way gets you smoother in room response, the benefits of dual opposed, single digit frequencies (which I feel adds to the experience), smaller cabs, easier to build (which isn't a good reason).

When I built my subs I basically could stick them anywhere along a wall in my room and I had good response. I have one room mode at 50hz that I have to eq, but even if I didn't it's pretty smooth and flat. This is an important feature to me for several reasons. I personally enjoy smooth flat response bass, no lumps please. Less eq is always better to conserve amp power. And seat to seat variance is very low.
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post #21 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 09:37 AM
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My issue is that like others explained, in order to appreciate bass under 18hz you need it to be loud SPL. Low SPL won't work that well. I can't perceive it. I've tried. A transducer seems to make more sense. Low SPL and subsonic don't work well, it needs to be loud enough to appreciate.

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post #22 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 09:51 AM
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I just don't agree. Which is fine. If I could only have one spot in the room, I'd go ported too. Probably dual opposed ported though.
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post #23 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 10:47 AM
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Funny, I think all bass needs to be at a certain level. You guys are expecting dramatic wind effects and such and because the low stuff does not do that you dismiss it. Your preference but not natural at all to cut out the low frequencies. JMHO.
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post #24 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:17 PM
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Tux, I'd like to hear a little more about your positive experiences with subsonic ULF.


MKtheater -



I know your a long time advocate of subsonic frequencies - but let me break it down from my perspective.
  • You can't hear the low frequencies below 15hz --- I think you'd agree
  • The 15hz and below frequencies are masked by the 15hz and up frequencies that are recorded at a louder volume (often double or more the volume) in >= 99.99999999% of the content out there if you don't boost the daylights out of the low stuff with a house curve of some ridiculous room gain ---- I think you'd agree
  • Content below 15hz in real world material is nearly impercievable unless on a wooden floor, small room/nearfield, or boosted heavily with a house curve, -- outside of test tones.
tuxedocivic and MKtheater, a direct question - have you tried implementing a low pass filter at 14hz with a steep rolloff (48db /octave if you have the ability) so you can get an idea of what your bass sounds like only playing frequencies below say 15hz? No typical subwoofer bass -- only frequencies below say 15hz. Watch your well known demo material at normal bass levels (don't boost your bass) and see what you think. You DO get the sense of air movement - a small sense of it, at popalocks playing some of the fabeled subsonic clips with the lowest hz content of anything out there you'd get 'puffs of air' but no audible content. In certain areas of the room where those long bass waves happened to interesect it was quite intense! Stand in one place your pant legs visibly flapped or a plastic bag moved like it was possessed by a demon. Move one foot over and the effect was completely gone. Strange! There were about 3 places in Popalock's basement that were insane -- the rest was underwhelming when playing the Black Hawk Down clip on repeat at the subs limit and walking around the room. We had a blast in those hot spots!!! Unfortunately none of the insane fun spots were even in the same room as the seating area (nearby bathroom doorway, the connecting hallway, and a set of French doors down the hallway). In the listening area it was underwhelming compared to what I expected based on all the feedback I've read here over the years. That's with sixteen budget 18"s run to their very max off a clone amp - drivers pumping for all they were worth at 7hz! Looked like the cones wanted to come out of the boxes! Now turn off the LPF and let full frequency bass play and the experience was INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!! with sixteen 18's! Actually VIOLENT, HOLY CRAP! I remember one of the guests exclaiming explectivitives out of breath in excitement and saying he got an immediate headache from how loud it was when the subwoofers were returned to full range playback at the same volume. During the same 14hz LPF experiment - he turned ot me and looked bored - said all he was feeling was little puffs of air. You could watch the drivers working HARD, but not much happening in the human sensory function.

so the demo with the LPF at 14hz when from underwhelming to #)@!#$*()!)(!$@#!!!!!!!!!!! when the full range bass was engaged ---- with no change in volume levels - just toggling the LPF on and off.....

Regardless MKtheater - I still plan to make it out to your place sometime and see if your room changes my mine about the value of subsonic frequencies! I'm coming up that way next mid next month - not sure If I can make it to NY - but I'll be in NJ. I'll see if it works out. Maybe Gorilla83 and I can make a roadtrip up to your place.
-----------------
It is possible different people sense things differently and perhaps I am not effected by the subsonic stuff like some of the others who say they really enjoy the sensation - but the only time I've got the sense of underwater pressure that people (typically) talk about associated with subsonic frequencies has been twice in all the demos I've experienced. One was when I put my head in the mouth of a gjallarhorn at d_c's house while he played the pulse server room scene and maxed out his clone amp to clipping on his pair of LMS-5400 based horns, (that made my eyes feel like they were liquid and going to dissolve at any moment!) and the other time was with dual JTR Orbit Shifters in my basement during the 2012 subwoofer meet -- and that particular OS experience had nothing to do with low subsonic playback and everything to do with 140dB + volume subwoofer volumes in the main listening position on the Pearl Harbor bombing scene!
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post #25 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:27 PM
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It's too bad - these types of discussions deserve their own titled threads and not to be burried in random threads like they are. But --- the long timers all kind of know where each of us stand --- it'd just be nice to consolidate all the pertinant discussion and observations over the years into one place.
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post #26 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:35 PM
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you can hear below 15 hz. It is well documented. It's not equal-loudness. Also there is a large amount of ULF content in many movies.
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post #27 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
you can hear below 15 hz. It is well documented. It's not equal-loudness. Also there is a large amount of ULF content in many movies.
You can hear the effects of 15hz, I don't think you can actually "hear" 15hz as it's too low for our ears. And where is it well documented as you've mentioned?
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post #28 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:51 PM
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Hi Archaea,

I disagree that low passing a sub at 14hz and listening tells you much about the experience. Alternatively, you could high pass the playback at 14hz and see. Regardless, I've done similar things you have. I'll describe more below.

You're absolutely right, it's not an audible thing. It's a sensory thing. From about 12 to 16hz I feel it right on my upper back. It makes me feel fat because it literally shakes my flesh on my back. Kind of weird. Not scary cause I listen quite low. But a weird sensation. Going below 12hz it becomes a shaking in my butt. yes, like the brown note. Again kinda weird. Also a lot of frequencies will just shake my guts up. Not violently, I don't listen that loud. Just a tickle. On top of all that, when the walls flex, you feel immersed in the experience. I've never used these shakers everyone talks about, but I'm unsure they could do the same thing. Maybe, I'm not sure.

Harder to explain is that when I get the ULF, the whole thing just sounds more complete. My brain realizes a particular sound is associated with ULF and then it feels it or senses it. This is why your low pass doesn't work. The brain doesn't know what you're doing. If you high pass the sound, your brain hears all these LFs but misses the ULF that maybe should be there. You can easily trick your brain and it'll be fine, it's not like your cutting out midrange or something critical. But if you include it, it sounds more natural. Of course a few puffs of ULF with nothing else playing sounds like nothing, because it is nothing. This is a total auditory brain experience. That's like saying, if I high pass my system at 8khz all I get is some weird ssss and screech sounds, so it doesn't matter. No it does. Because when you hear a violin, although the majority of its sound is below 8khz, it still has some sound above 8khz that your brain latches onto to tell you the sound of that violin. So unfortunately I feel your test is invalid.

One last thing about my experiences. I really started to believe in what I was hearing when data-bass started to acrue a real collection of measurements. I'd watch a movie like Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol and think, wow that had a lot of great bass with rich ULF. Then a year later they measured it and sure enough I was right. Then I'd watch something like 2 guns and think, geez this thing is filtered or something, despite having huge dynamics. Sure enough, the measurements would confirm exactly my feelings. I could almost tell your the frequency of the high pass on the disc. I use those two as examples because they're not known for bass or talked about much. It goes to show that my impressions weren't coloured by forum discussions. In fact, I'm on record on data-bass asking about Ghost Protocol months before Nube measured it because I knew it was good. Then sure enough...

Perhaps you're right. Maybe we all experience things differently. People are midbass crazy around here and I don't get it. At all.
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post #29 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
you can hear below 15 hz. It is well documented. It's not equal-loudness. Also there is a large amount of ULF content in many movies.
This is kind of what I was saying. In order to appreciate it then it will need to be loud enough, and trying for a system that's 15db under reference doesn't seem like it would make a big deal one way or another.

Weather or not you can feel it at 100db+ is debatable. But if you can hear it at 80db or less I don't think as much, it's pretty much fact you can't appreciate much if anything at that volume under 15hz. Porting a sub at 17hz or 16hz or going sealed it would't really matter what sub you used at that volume level, you'd need to crank on it some more to get the effect.

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post #30 of 61 Old 07-21-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
You can hear the effects of 15hz, I don't think you can actually "hear" 15hz as it's too low for our ears. And where is it well documented as you've mentioned?
No it's an old wives tale / myth that humans can't hear below 20 hz. The threshold of hearing is just higher as you go lower frequency, it's the same in the opposite direction, above about 2500 hz the threshold of hearing is higher as you go higher frequency.

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