Blending ported and sealed - analog vs. digital HPF... and other ramblings.... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post
Great thread! Hey Carp, just saw this FBQ3102...looks like it would be fun to play with.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/msg/4577223458.html

He lives right by me and I could ship it if you are really interested in one of these...I bet he'd take $50
Nice find! But alas with buying the 215's and now some new HT chairs I REALLY have to stop spending money even on "small" things. I really need to take about a year off of buying anything for the basement. Jonathan, that means you'll be getting your 6000's back. Yes, they crush the 3000's in output - and may beat the CV 5000. However I HAVE to chill for awhile.


Oh wait - just thought of a way to salvage the thread (ha, way too late for that).... I was planning on comparing the CV5000 vs the inuke 6000 to see which clips first on the 215's. Ah, that will be the project for tomorrow.
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post #32 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:12 AM
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You need an AVR with a XLR sub-out, you can keep your current AVR if you want and just pass the HDMI TV out into a UMC-200 and the 200 to your TV.

Think of it as a $600 subwoofer converter box. 30 day money back guarantee; and you can save $70 if you buy it within the next 10 days with the e-club subscription, and with the e-club more in the future.
Plus you'll get +25% off an XMC-1 if you ever want to upgrade to 7.2 XLR
http://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/umc-200

I run an XSP-1 and it has 20dbV on all 4 channels of crazy-overkill output in 2.2 / 2.1 XLR, 2hz to 200khz +-0db with 0.0004% THD
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post #33 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:13 AM
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Since I'll be trying to blend ported and sealed soon enough, I'm subbed


Sent using Tapatalk since the mobile version is still 👎
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post #34 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:16 AM
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How does the 2200 differ from the CX2310 as far as subwoofers go? (Wouldn't it have less hiss being solid-state?)
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX2310.aspx
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post #35 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post




Hey Carp, I love the idea of using the DSP in the iNuke to boost things a bit, in particular some of the frequencies above my 80 hz crossover from my mains to my subs that I can't touch without some form of EQ. Can you store preset curves like this that you can pull up easily depending on source material (movies vs music, jazz vs rock, etc)? I think I remember you saying that was true...

Also, can I use this on top of what Audyssey XT32 is doing already? It is doing a great job of making my THT play nice with my ported 12s. I guess it CAN be done, just wondering if its a good idea to stack this type of EQ on top of Audyssey, or if it's better to start from scratch and manually EQ everything.
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post #36 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:32 AM
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"just thought of a way to salvage the thread (ha, way too late for that)"


most folks don't consider the effect that the "slope/order" of the high pass filter can have on frequency response through phase and this is particularly important for folks who choose to run their mains 'full range'. no need for salvaging anything -- great data and discussion.

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post #37 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post
Hey Carp, I love the idea of using the DSP in the iNuke to boost things a bit, in particular some of the frequencies above my 80 hz crossover from my mains to my subs that I can't touch without some form of EQ. Can you store preset curves like this that you can pull up easily depending on source material (movies vs music, jazz vs rock, etc)? I think I remember you saying that was true...

Also, can I use this on top of what Audyssey XT32 is doing already? It is doing a great job of making my THT play nice with my ported 12s. I guess it CAN be done, just wondering if its a good idea to stack this type of EQ on top of Audyssey, or if it's better to start from scratch and manually EQ everything.

The inuke dsp connects to a computer or lap top with a usb cord. What I do is I have my computer in the next room next to all my pro amps that have loud fans. I connect the inuke to that pc. I then have a cheapie lap top that I use remote desktop to control the pc that the inuke is connected to.

The laptop always sits next to my main seat so when I'm listening to music I can tweak the bass on the fly how I like. The inuke does have 20 presets that you can store as well.

Sometimes (like now) I just use my projector screen to see and tweak the inuke dsp since i have my pc in the other room connected to my avr and projector.

I think it's no problem at all to tweak on top of Audyssey. I don't use Audyssey, but if I did I would have no problem doing this.

It's amazing how different artists and songs need different levels of bass boost - and different amounts of house curve, at least they do to my ears. It would drive me crazy to not be able to easily tweak the bass. Of course, I also have the option to run the subs and turn up/down the sub trim but using the inuke is much more specific with how you can tweak the bass.
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post #38 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"just thought of a way to salvage the thread (ha, way too late for that)"


most folks don't consider the effect that the "slope/order" of the high pass filter can have on frequency response through phase and this is particularly important for folks who choose to run their mains 'full range'. no need for salvaging anything -- great data and discussion.
I think I was so focused on wanting to make the 48 db and 24db slopes work. The minidsp has far more options for slope and that's what I was using when trying to blend the Caps and SI's way back when. Since I must have missed BW 12 db's with the minidsp I may have rushed a bit when trying things again this time around with the inuke.

Thanks man, both for figuring out what the solution was for my user error and for the kind words.
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post #39 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I just looked at the minidsp HPF options, wow. For example BW has 48, 42, 36, 30, 24, 18, 12, and 6.
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post #40 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 01:01 AM
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So I've got a huge drop at around 100 Hz on my left 212HT-LP. Coach had a huge drop around 125 Hz on his left 215RT. I think we were running the RTs full range without a crossover but I'm not positive. Is it possible a crossover phase is causing both of those or is it just a corner suck on the frequency? I'm not at home right now or I'd test my system but figured we could keep the conversation going in a good direction.
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post #41 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 01:06 AM
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dgage, that sounds like 1/4 wave reflection cancellation. at 100hz, 2.83 feet or so. 1130 (ft/s) / 100 (1/s) / 4.

peavey has a good article on how this works.

http://peavey.com/support/technotes/...ncellation.cfm


could be other things, but that's one worth taking a look at.

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post #42 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

A DEQ with no threshold is pointless; a threshold is what makes it dynamic, otherwise it is just PEQ. Just thought I'd mention it!!!
A ratio of 3.5 works pretty good for a subwoofer, less than that will probably be too weak, and more than that might be aggressive at low SPL's.
You want the Attack and Release to be as short as you can make it without causing audible noise, 120ms and 500ms is a good starting value.
Also, if you want it to extend all the way down to 1hz you want to use a Shelf, not a BP filter.

A threshold value above -10db is dangerous. Its value should not exceed the gain, otherwise you could clip the DSP.
Avoiding clipping is the whole point of using DEQ vs PEQ.
PEQ is dumb and will keep boosting even when the DSP is already clipping. A properly set up DEQ will deactivate itself and allow the system to resume it's native response just a few db's before clipping or over excursion occurs.

If your DSP has the horsepower and your gain structure is optimized, there is no reason to ever use PEQ. I'd replace them all with DEQ's (starting with the deepest frequencies.)

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post #43 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 06:53 AM
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Ltd02, thanks for the info on the phase shifts of the HPFs. I didn't know that, so this is cool to understand! You always seem to have the answers! You are like the DIY subwoofer Sensei!

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post #44 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
You are using a high pass filter on the sms1? Interesting. I used to have one but sold it. What did you set the HPF at? Everything measures well in your seating areas? Very cool.
Yes, my ported subs hpf is set to 8hz and the sealed is set at 2hz... Everything looks great. At first my sealed subs were in each corner in the front and there was a null at 20hz, I moved in them in one quarter of the way in and put my speakers in each corner - no more null. My ported subs are in an old bomb shelter closet halfway/in the middle of my right wall. Needless to say people that sit on the right side get a bit more shake
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post #45 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Also, if you want it to extend all the way down to 1hz you want to use a Shelf, not a BP filter.
There is no shelf filter in the DEQ on the iNuke - only LP, HP, and BP.

Quote:
A threshold value above -10db is dangerous. Its value should not exceed the gain, otherwise you could clip the DSP.
+1
Whether one uses the DCX2496, iNukeDSP, miniDSP, etc. they need to make sure there is never a net gain in the DSP. On the iNukeDSP, the Filter/Crossover tab has a gain knob that can be lowered to compensate for gain increases in the DSP through PEQ or DEQ.
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post #46 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
A DEQ with no threshold is pointless; a threshold is what makes it dynamic, otherwise it is just PEQ. Just thought I'd mention it!!!

Yeah I know, I'm not using it to so the bass will be lower in relation to the rest of the frequencies as the volume gets louder. In fact, I find that as the volume gets louder sometimes I want more bass. I like using it because I can quickly change the house curve on the fly. Anything from .1 to .5 on the quality and anywhere from 3.0 to 15 on the gain and I can change on the fly depending on the song that's playing or my mood.

A ratio of 3.5 ratio of what? not sure what you mean here works pretty good for a subwoofer, less than that will probably be too weak, and more than that might be aggressive at low SPL's.
You want the Attack and Release to be as short as you can make it without causing audible noise, 120ms and 500ms is a good starting value.


Woah, cool. This is the first I've seen someone talk about the attack and release. Archaea and I have wondered what the heck those are in the first place. I just left them where they were but I'll try 120ms and 500ms.


Also, if you want it to extend all the way down to 1hz you want to use a Shelf, not a BP filter.


This is for my mains which are tuned to 18 hz so not worried about going low. I do use another inuke to control my Crowson so good to know.

A threshold value above -10db is dangerous. Its value should not exceed the gain, otherwise you could clip the DSP.
Avoiding clipping is the whole point of using DEQ vs PEQ.

Makes sense. I rarely crank loud enough for this to matter - although with testing to see what it would take to clip the inuke on the 215's I did crank it up with the DEQ Threshold at 0.

PEQ is dumb and will keep boosting even when the DSP is already clipping. A properly set up DEQ will deactivate itself and allow the system to resume it's native response just a few db's before clipping or over excursion occurs.

If your DSP has the horsepower and your gain structure is optimized, there is no reason to ever use PEQ. I'd replace them all with DEQ's (starting with the deepest frequencies.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
There is no shelf filter in the DEQ on the iNuke - only LP, HP, and BP.


+1
Whether one uses the DCX2496, iNukeDSP, miniDSP, etc. they need to make sure there is never a net gain in the DSP. On the iNukeDSP, the Filter/Crossover tab has a gain knob that can be lowered to compensate for gain increases in the DSP through PEQ or DEQ.
Here is where I have my gain knob set at, so can I set my threshold at -1.5 and be ok or do I need to keep it at -10?




thanks guys!!
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post #47 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Never mind, I see the ratio. I'll set it to 3.5.
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post #48 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 10:43 AM
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what's the 'ratio' do in post 42?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #49 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 11:40 AM
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Nice find! But alas with buying the 215's and now some new HT chairs I REALLY have to stop spending money even on "small" things. I really need to take about a year off of buying anything for the basement. Jonathan, that means you'll be getting your 6000's back. Yes, they crush the 3000's in output - and may beat the CV 5000. However I HAVE to chill for awhile.


Oh wait - just thought of a way to salvage the thread (ha, way too late for that).... I was planning on comparing the CV5000 vs the inuke 6000 to see which clips first on the 215's. Ah, that will be the project for tomorrow.
Wed. I could come over and bring my Peavey IPR2 7500 dsp to add in the mix as well. I would like to also compare the amps on your subs and also our omnimics to try and figure out what is causing my cliff at 10hz.

Let me know.
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post #50 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 11:43 AM
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The inuke dsp connects to a computer or lap top with a usb cord. What I do is I have my computer in the next room next to all my pro amps that have loud fans. I connect the inuke to that pc. I then have a cheapie lap top that I use remote desktop to control the pc that the inuke is connected to.

The laptop always sits next to my main seat so when I'm listening to music I can tweak the bass on the fly how I like. The inuke does have 20 presets that you can store as well.

Sometimes (like now) I just use my projector screen to see and tweak the inuke dsp since i have my pc in the other room connected to my avr and projector.

I think it's no problem at all to tweak on top of Audyssey. I don't use Audyssey, but if I did I would have no problem doing this.

It's amazing how different artists and songs need different levels of bass boost - and different amounts of house curve, at least they do to my ears. It would drive me crazy to not be able to easily tweak the bass. Of course, I also have the option to run the subs and turn up/down the sub trim but using the inuke is much more specific with how you can tweak the bass.
Thanks Carp, this is perfect. I suppose a lot of this could be accomplished with j river using my HTPC. I have heard that desertdome is a samurai warrior when it comes to dsp with j river. Is there a getting started guide or anything that someone can point me to? If I use the dsp in j river, is the signal then sent via pcm to my receiver and it will show "Multi In" in the display?
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post #51 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 11:43 AM
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ported rolloff at 3rd order below their low corner
Don't you mean 4th?

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post #52 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
what's the 'ratio' do in post 42?
The ratio is the amount of output that will be generated for an input step up of 1 (in whatever unit they measure internally for that, probably millivolts).
For a negative gain, it would be the amount of compression, instead of expansion.

Attack and Release is: how quickly the filter will be applied, and how slowly it will deactivated.

If you are trying to avoid clipping or want brief periods of quite to be louder, you obviously want a fast Attack;
the release is less important and I just use it for smoothing out the gap between states of the filter & its ratio.
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post #53 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 12:42 PM
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If you are applying lots of PEQ boost then you might want to lower the filter gain, otherwise I'd just leave it at somewhere between -3db and 0db.
It looks like -8.5db is a bit too low.
The only other reason you'd lower it is if your mains are too loud relative to the bass; or vice versa with the subwoofer amp.
and the only reason you'd increase it beyond 0db is if your input source is just really weak-sauce.


"I'm not using it to so the bass will be lower in relation to the rest of the frequencies as the volume gets louder. I like using it because I can quickly change the house curve on the fly. "
DEQ would be great for applying dynamic house curves like that, but I still wouldn't advise setting it higher than -10db.
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post #54 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Wed. I could come over and bring my Peavey IPR2 7500 dsp to add in the mix as well. I would like to also compare the amps on your subs and also our omnimics to try and figure out what is causing my cliff at 10hz.

Let me know.
Cool! I can do anytime during the day until 5:00 and then again after 10:00 pm, let me if any of that works for you.
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post #55 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
If you are applying lots of PEQ boost then you might want to lower the filter gain, otherwise I'd just leave it at somewhere between -3db and 0db.
It looks like -8.5db is a bit too low.
The only other reason you'd lower it is if your mains are too loud relative to the bass; or vice versa with the subwoofer amp.
and the only reason you'd increase it beyond 0db is if your input source is just really weak-sauce.


"I'm not using it to so the bass will be lower in relation to the rest of the frequencies as the volume gets louder. I like using it because I can quickly change the house curve on the fly. "
DEQ would be great for applying dynamic house curves like that, but I still wouldn't advise setting it higher than -10db.
I set it at -8.5 because the input and output clip lights would start to light up at the exact same time which I assumes means I'm getting the most output possible from the inuke?

I'm sure there is another combination of speaker trim volume on the avr, gain knobs on the front of the inuke, and the gain on the software above that will give me the same result, but this current combination was the only way when I was experimenting with it.
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post #56 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 03:50 PM
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"Don't you mean 4th?"


for the first octave below the f3, it is roughly 3rd depending on design and 4th below that, but even less than 3rd across the pass band (which is why I put all the hedge clauses in that post). so ultimately, yes, you are right.

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post #57 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 04:13 PM
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"A DEQ with no threshold is pointless; a threshold is what makes it dynamic, otherwise it is just PEQ. Just thought I'd mention it!!! "


i'm not sure if that is completely accurate because the way the inuke places a 'window' around the threshold.


this is from the dcx2496 manual which is a ***tiny fraction*** clearer on how these things work.


in this case if the -40db threshold were moved up to -0db, there would still be some dynamic aspect left below the -0db point. granted, it wouldn't be the full 15db that is expected, but there would be something.


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post #58 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 06:06 PM
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"what's the 'ratio' do in post 42?"


depends on if limiting or expanding.
for a limiter, the RATIO looks at by how much the original signal exceeds your THRESHOLD, it then cuts it back by some percentage. the percentage of reduction and by relatively low, such as 2:1 or 50% cutback or it can be massive such as 10:1 or 90% cutback.


however, in no case will it cut the signal back by more than your negative gain (in the case of a limiter).
now, it doesn't work exactly like that because there is a 'window' around the THRESHOLD. it isn't a specific value.


example: let's say that you have RATIO set for 2:1 and THRESHOLD set to -20db and GAIN set to -6db.


if a hi power signal comes through at -5db, that is 15db of excess over your THRESHOLD, so the limiter will first attempt to reduce it by 2:1 or -7.5db reduction, but it will also see that you set the GAIN to -6db, so it will only reduce the signal by -6db. as a result the signal that is allowed to pass is -11db (original signal at -5db minus the compression of -6db).


in the case of expansion, the RATIO looks to see how much your signal falls below the THRESHOLD. it then applies some boost based on the RATIO. but again, it will not apply more boost than you have set in your GAIN.


example: let's say that you have RATIO set for 10:1 and THRESHOLD set to -30db and GAIN set to +10db.


if a low power signal comes through at -50db, which is 20db under your THRESHOLD, it will attempt to boost the signal by 200db. of course, it won't do that because you have set the maximum gain to by +10db. so no matter how low your signal goes, it will only get up to a maximum boost of +10db.


and yes...it is as confusing as snot!

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post #59 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 06:12 PM
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"You want the Attack and Release to be as short as you can make it without causing audible noise, 120ms and 500ms is a good starting value."


this is good advice for a compressor, but for an expander, it is almost the opposite.


a "zero attack" is fine. there is no sense in letting some signal pass through momentarily with no boost before the boost kicks in. for compressors, allowing the first few cycles through at full spl makes sense to preserve transients, but with expanders, you probably want them kicking in with no delay.


also, there is not really any reason to have them end either unless for some reason you want the boost to "stop" and the signal to drop after half a second or so. again, that makes sense to reset the filter and allow for a new attack for compressors, but for expanders, just max it out at 4000ms.

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post #60 of 101 Old 07-22-2014, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I set it at -8.5 because the input and output clip lights would start to light up at the exact same time which I assumes means I'm getting the most output possible from the inuke?
Correct, Yep I guess that would work too.
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