Blending ported and sealed - analog vs. digital HPF... and other ramblings.... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Blending ported and sealed - analog vs. digital HPF... and other ramblings....

I have found that blending ported and sealed subs is sooooo much easier using an analog high pass filter compared to using a digital high pass filter.

Now, this could be common knowledge around here I don't know but I haven't seen it before so I figured I'd post something in case someone else finds themselves in the same position I am - trying to blend ported and sealed.




I don't have actual ported subwoofers, but my mains extend easily below 20hz so the task is the same, trying to get the two types of designs to play well together. For music I normally run just the mains without subs and use the inuke dsp to boost the bass, but when doing a crazy demo like I did the other night I run the mains as large + subs at the same time and the results are fantastic!

The first person I heard mention that maybe a HPF was easier to implement to blend ported and sealed was Archaea. A few months back I was at his place and we were comparing 4 of my SI sealed subs to his ported Caps. When the comparison was over we tried blending them together and subjectively we preferred all subs playing at once. They measured well too (surprisingly since I had always heard how hard it is to blend the two together).

So, I started thinking about adding ported subs to my setup. I borrowed Jonathan's Caps to make sure i could blend the 2 types in my room before diving in and having d_c build me some ported monsters.

Well, all was fine blending the SI's and Caps (after doing lots of experimenting with sub distance settings on minidsp) until I put on a high pass filter using my minidsp. All hell broke loose with the frequency response and not just around the HPF frequencies. Frequencies were affected as high as 70 hz!!

I mentioned this on the forum and a few of you mentioned that a HPF can really mess up the response when trying to blend ported and sealed. I called Archaea and he mentioned that it could be the fact that in his room we were using an analog HPF (Behringer mic2200) and in my room I was using a digital HPF (minidsp).

Around this time I saw a picture of the 215's for the first time and all thought of getting ported subs went out the window, my irrational/impulsive brain kicked in and I knew I had to have them just for how they looked, haha, but that's another story.

So, I gave up the ported sub idea. However, once I got the 215's I obviously had the same issue of trying to blend if I wanted to try running the mains as large and the subs at the same time. Once again, I dialed the subs and speakers in so that they played great together.




Here is a shot of just the speakers playing full range and no subs:







Here is a comparison of mains full range (black line) and mains run as SMALL (blue line) crossed over at 80hz:








^ Weird how my sealed setup drops off somewhat similar to ported around 12 hz, I assume I have good room gain down to 12 hz and then the roll off of my avr plus lack of room gain takes over?





Now, here is Mains Large + Subs with NO high pass filter (red line) compared to mains small crossed at 80hz (blue line) and mains only (black line):





So, everything is great right? Well, it is until you use a high pass filter with the inuke dsp which is powering the mains. Here is what happens with a digital high pass (black line). Keep in mind this was the BEST I could do with playing with distance settings. Most of the time I had dips in 2 or 3 areas not just one like you see here. The blue line is an analog high pass filter using Archaea's Behringer mic2200 and what is really nice is that's with NO adjusting to the distance settings of the subs from what they are with the HPF off.




Now, I do lose a lot of output below 20hz using the HPF as compared to mains large + subs with no HPF, so the other night on some music tracks and movies that I knew didn't have a ton of stuff below 17hz (where Jeff told me to set the HPF) I didn't use a HPF and the amount of bass output was subjectively much more impressive than when I had just the 8 SI's. I also had things falling off the wall that have never fallen off the wall and my wife (who is a deep sleeper on the other end of the house) was woken up for the first time.

I had some kids (now in college) I used to coach come over for the first time for a demo that night and a couple of them are into car audio a little bit so I knew I had to push things a bit. I have experienced car audio when I was younger and had a decent little JL Audio setup myself so I'm familiar with how easy it is to pressurize a car compared to a room.

Still, these guys were impressed. Lots of laughing and shaking heads which is a good sign, haha. What I like to do on music demo's is keep creeping up the volume. Here is what happens with guests almost every time. They look at each other and laugh and shake their heads as the volume keeps going up until finally they stop smiling and look at me with a look that says, "I can't believe you are still turning that up you fing psycho!!" I keep turning it up until this happens. Ha, well I didn't think I would get that look with these young kids but I did.

Here is what I did for a music demo. I started just playing the 215's and turn up the volume to a pretty decent level, bass is hitting hard. Next I turn on the Crowson transducers and it's even better, and finally I turn on the subs and it's chaos. Haha, too much fun! Lastly I turned on the mbm behind my main seat - which really only affects the guy in that main seat - but I made sure it was the guy that has subs in his car!





Here are a couple of videos, this first one is 215's only:


That was using the inuke 3000 dsp.


Today I tried it with the 6000 and no mic2200 on the Bassotronics song. I made it to 8 over reference before seeing any clip lights at all, 215's large no subs. Also, that is with boosting the bass on the 215's by 7 db's using the inuke dsp like this:



Also, I think I could push it a little harder sine the output lights on the inuke 6000 were clipping before the input lights. If I adjust the trims on everything and get the input and output to clip at the same time I bet I'd get a few more db's.



Here is a video that shows the 215's playing large and then keeping them large and adding subs, all at 6 over reference. The 215's are again 7 db's hot, the subs are god knows how hot, I turned them up as loud as I could before just seeing clip lights on the CV5000 amp.

I turn on the subs right at the 26 second mark in the video.




Sorry about the horrible quality of the video, having the screen on makes the quality so much worse I guess.



The first video the audio doesn't distort much, but that's with lower volume levels than the second ^ video. There is absolutely none of that in the room, it sounds completely clean so I guess I'm over the limit of the iphone mic.





So, all should be well and good but it is not. The signal from my avr sub out and speaker outs is very weak (I have to have my CV 5000 amp cranked up almost all the way for example). So, when I put the mic2200 in the chain I have to crank up the gains on it or on the avr and the end result is a lot of distortion sound when I crank up the volume. When I take the mic2200 out of the chain there is no more distortion and everything sound great.

So, I need a new avr eventually that has a higher voltage on it's outputs or xlr outputs or something

OR - I just found out through DD that Jriver has HPF that can function as analog so I'll have to check that out too when I get a chance. I use Jriver as my music player (other than Spotify to find new music) but not for movies.

Oh, I forgot to mention, not only do the ported speakers and sealed subs blend perfectly at the main LP, but they do the same in the second row and the bar table area.


Ok, good lord that was a long post.

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post #2 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 02:53 PM
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Have you tried what LTD suggested in another post - an all pass filter with the right numbers, on a sealed subwoofer, can shift the phase to be identical to a ported sub's

Also, can you write a simple TL;DR of your post and what to do?
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post #3 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Have you tried what LTD suggested in another post - an all pass filter with the right numbers, on a sealed subwoofer, can shift the phase to be identical to a ported sub's

Also, can you write a simple TL;DR of your post and what to do?

I tried LTD's HPF on an inuke which allows you to set a HPF lower than 20hz, but no, I'm not familiar with his all pass filter/right numbers/phase thing. Sounds interesting.

Haha, what is TL and DR?
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post #4 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Ahhh too long didn't read. Got it.

Ok short version.

If you want to blend ported and sealed it's not that hard if you don't use a HPF and have a minidsp, inuke dsp, or something else to tweak the distance and or phase.

However, if you want to have a HPF - which you will - it is MUCH harder to blend the 2 types. In fact in my case it was impossible.

Archaea had a theory that an analog HPF like the one in the Behringer mic2200 could be used but not a digital HPF like in the inuke dsp or minidsp.

In my room (and his) he is right.
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post #5 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, running ported and sealed together does subjectively give you more output and the measurements back that up since I got 3 -5 db's more bass across the board when I ran speakers large + subs as opposed to running just one or the other. That's (3 to 5 db boost) in the graphs above if you want to look at it.
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post #6 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 05:22 PM
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So the analog HPF in the final graph was at 20hz? Or back at 80?

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post #7 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Brandon,

It was at 20hz on the digital HPF (black line) and around 17or 18 (hard to say exactly since it's analog) on the mic 2200 (blue line)






Here is crossing at 80hz running the 215's small (blue line):





Now, I'm not sure what type and what slope of crossover is on the mic2200.

I tried ALL of the HPF options on the inuke dsp (BW, LR, B) and all of the different slopes and all of them screwed up the freq response all over the place.
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post #8 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 05:46 PM
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Thanks for having an interesting conversations about blending, as I am trying to figure out a bass solution and wondering if I should avoid blending or not.
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post #9 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Can you do 3 more?
1) just the subs
2) just the mains 80hz
3) together 80hz
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post #10 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Now, I'm not sure what type and what slope of crossover is on the mic2200.

I tried ALL of the HPF options on the inuke dsp (BW, LR, B) and all of the different slopes and all of them screwed up the freq response all over the place.
That's odd, because the IIR style of filters in the iNuke and other similar DSPs are designed to emulate the corresponding analog filters. They should do so quite accurately when the cutoff frequency is much less than the sampling frequency of the A/D converter. The only exception I've seen was a problem in the miniDSP at very low cutoff frequencies due to finite word length in the filter coefficients in the DSP hardware. I think it was notnyt that found it.

I looked in the mic2200 manual, and it did not have any detailed info about the filters at all, except to say that they have a "very high slope". I am skeptical of this, as getting a tunable high-slope analog filter is not simple or cheap.

Could it be that the mic2200 is inverting?
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post #11 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 08:25 PM
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For what its worth I have two sealed subs along with two ported subs tuned to 12hz. Zero issues integrating them...

Each has its own velodyne sms1 and have separate distances set in my receiver.
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post #12 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 08:38 PM
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"I have found that blending ported and sealed subs is sooooo much easier using an analog high pass filter compared to using a digital high pass filter."


as andy mentioned, you might be comparing different filter slopes and as a result different phase shifts.


4th order filter rotates phase 360 degrees.


2nd order filter rotates phase 180 degrees. i think mic2200 filters are second order. it is variously described as 12db/oct which is second order.


also, with the electronic filter, are you also putting an additional 'low pass' in the mix? if so that could throw phase off even further.


more detail about what you are doing would be required to identify what happened.

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post #13 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 08:59 PM
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Carp, I'm glad you posted this thread and spoke up on the topic! I think it's a very interesting similar observation with the Caps and the SI integration in both my room and your room with the mic2200's analog HPF. It'll be fun to see if further tests from other enthusiasts line up with this theory. Using the Mic2200 HPF in our systems there is simply no wackiness happening to the rest of the higher frequency response - it just starts trailing off at the deep end according to the HPF dial setting. Thus - no difficulty in getting sealed and ported to play nicely together.


Andyc, I agree - I don't think the MIC2200 HPF is a very steep slope. Carp could probably get an idea of just how steep it is by setting it to something high like say 40hz and comparing before and after shots. In my toying with the unit carp is borrowing I didn't ever think it was anything nearly as steep as the iNuke's capability for 48dB per octave - probably half that at most.

Carp, I'm surprised to hear you say you hearing distortion in your line from the Mic2200. That's not something I noticed using it for subs - but I never ran it for mains as you are doing - so I can't really tell you much. Can you confirm you are leaving your L and R speaker trims negative on your Pioneer AVR, and boosting the signal level L/R output to the iNuke amp using the dial on the far right of each Mic2200 channel? I've indicated which dial to boost with a red arrow in the attached picture. Is it distortion in one channel or both? What lights are on? What are the dials set at? Can you take a picture of the Mic2200 front panel as it currently is being used (powered on so I can see the light indicators?)
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post #14 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 09:04 PM
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Carp is one heck of an audio tinkerer. I can't think of anyone better to be tasked with ferreting this out based on recommendations and measurements. He has the patience to spend hour upon hour, even day upon day to get everything figured out and optimized! Definitely subscribed!
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post #15 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Can you do 3 more?
1) just the subs
2) just the mains 80hz
3) together 80hz

Sure, but I'm not sure what you are asking for on #2 and #3 . Do you mean crossing over with the avr or the inuke HPF or mic2200 HPF?
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post #16 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
That's odd, because the IIR style of filters in the iNuke and other similar DSPs are designed to emulate the corresponding analog filters. They should do so quite accurately when the cutoff frequency is much less than the sampling frequency of the A/D converter. The only exception I've seen was a problem in the miniDSP at very low cutoff frequencies due to finite word length in the filter coefficients in the DSP hardware. I think it was notnyt that found it.

I looked in the mic2200 manual, and it did not have any detailed info about the filters at all, except to say that they have a "very high slope". I am skeptical of this, as getting a tunable high-slope analog filter is not simple or cheap.

Could it be that the mic2200 is inverting?

Yeah, Desertdome told me the same thing, that the filters on the minidsp and inuke should be just like analog filters. I tried them all, but I'll do it again to be sure.

Yeah, from the looks of the frequency drop off there is no way that the mic2200 has a 48 db slope, not close.

Inverting? What does that mean?
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post #17 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtight View Post
For what its worth I have two sealed subs along with two ported subs tuned to 12hz. Zero issues integrating them...

Each has its own velodyne sms1 and have separate distances set in my receiver.

You are using a high pass filter on the sms1? Interesting. I used to have one but sold it. What did you set the HPF at? Everything measures well in your seating areas? Very cool.
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post #18 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 09:51 PM
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Careful you are gonna break your projector if you keep that up!
Is that your projector or screen, or both?
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post #19 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Sure, but I'm not sure what you are asking for on #2 and #3 . Do you mean crossing over with the avr or the inuke HPF or mic2200 HPF?
The one that was giving you the problem.
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post #20 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"I have found that blending ported and sealed subs is sooooo much easier using an analog high pass filter compared to using a digital high pass filter."


as andy mentioned, you might be comparing different filter slopes and as a result different phase shifts.


4th order filter rotates phase 360 degrees.


2nd order filter rotates phase 180 degrees. i think mic2200 filters are second order. it is variously described as 12db/oct which is second order.


also, with the electronic filter, are you also putting an additional 'low pass' in the mix? if so that could throw phase off even further.


more detail about what you are doing would be required to identify what happened.


Does a 4th order mean a 48 or 24 db slope?

I'm not using a low pass for anything. I did try all the slopes and types of filters but I do plan on trying again.


Here is what I have done. I used MCACC for the distance settings only (because I think the eq sounds like poo and I like to do the channel volume levels myself). This seemed to get the subs integrated well with my old 212's, they measured well and sounded good. MCACC set my speakers at 10' 2.5" and my subs at 13' 7". My subs are equidistant from my main LP, they are all stacked in the front corners.

Well, when I bought the 215's and tried to run them as large + subs the frequency response was not good. So, I messed with the distance settings in the minidsp to try to fix that. I tried all kinds of distances and it ended up that adding 5 feet to the distance setting of the subs gave the best response.

This distance measures well for running the mains small and crossing over to the subs as well as running mains as large + subs with no crossover.

So all is well. Unless I want a HPF and then it's all screwed up, but not with the mic2200. No problems with the HPF on it. However, I'm not out of the woods because i'm getting distortion when using the 2200 at high volumes but that's another issue.
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post #21 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Carp, I'm glad you posted this thread and spoke up on the topic! I think it's a very interesting similar observation with the Caps and the SI integration in both my room and your room with the mic2200's analog HPF. It'll be fun to see if further tests from other enthusiasts line up with this theory. Using the Mic2200 HPF in our systems there is simply no wackiness happening to the rest of the higher frequency response - it just starts trailing off at the deep end according to the HPF dial setting. Thus - no difficulty in getting sealed and ported to play nicely together.


Andyc, I agree - I don't think the MIC2200 HPF is a very steep slope. Carp could probably get an idea of just how steep it is by setting it to something high like say 40hz and comparing before and after shots. In my toying with the unit carp is borrowing I didn't ever think it was anything nearly as steep as the iNuke's capability for 48dB per octave - probably half that at most.

Carp, I'm surprised to hear you say you hearing distortion in your line from the Mic2200. That's not something I noticed using it for subs - but I never ran it for mains as you are doing - so I can't really tell you much. Can you confirm you are leaving your L and R speaker trims negative on your Pioneer AVR, and boosting the signal level L/R output to the iNuke amp using the dial on the far right of each Mic2200 channel? I've indicated which dial to boost with a red arrow in the attached picture. Is it distortion in one channel or both? What lights are on? What are the dials set at? Can you take a picture of the Mic2200 front panel as it currently is being used (powered on so I can see the light indicators?)
I'm not sure what's going on with the distortion. In the 2nd video I was using the inuke 6000 and not using the mic2200 so no high pass filter. I just figured there was not much below 17hz on that Bassotronics song and I must be right because there were no bad sounds or any audible distortion (to my ears anyway) all the way up to clipping.

However, if I put the mic2200 in the chain suddenly I have to either crank up the gains in the mic2200, the sub out on the avr, or a combination of both. If I don't the amount of hiss and hum is VERY loud when I turn up the gain on the 6000. For some reason when I take the mic2200 out of the chain and turn up the gain on the 6000 the hiss is FAR lower. Not sure what is going on here...

Actually I get a lot of hiss when cranking up the gain on the 2200 as well. The only real way to not get his with the 2200 in the chain is to crank up the sub out on my avr way above 0 and I know that's a no no.

I also tried the 2200 with the 3000, and same kind of thing. I really have to crank the volume but it does start to distort. It's weird hearing a JTR speaker distort, I've never experienced that before.

Currently I'm not using it, but I'll take a pic of how I had it last.





The other channel looks identical.
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post #22 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:17 PM
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^nothing looks wrong there. Only thing on is the low cut at about 18hz from the pic.


Time for balanced XLR out, and time to sell off the Pioneer AVR.
Balanced XLR out from preamp to balanced XLR in on something like the Mic2200, to balanced XLR in on the iNuke. Signal cable stays balanced the entire time - noise floor problem solved.


Otherwise the only thing I got is that Mic2200 is really old - how long do they last? New ones from Amazon are a Benjamin and if it has the same problem returns are free.
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-MIC2...ywords=mic2200

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post #23 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Careful you are gonna break your projector if you keep that up!
Is that your projector or screen, or both?
It's both. I use a painted wall for my screen and it's a very solid wall because when we moved in the basement was covered in wood panelling, really thick stuff. The kind of stuff that I never would have to find a stud to hang anything, even a heavy speaker when my room was turned 90 degrees to what it is now. I covered the wood paneling in drywall and that's what my screen is on now but it still rattles pretty bad when the subs are going all out and it's significantly worse with adding the bass from the 215's into the mix. I am so freakin' done adding any more bass to the room. Not one more db. Seriously, I will almost NEVER use all this headroom.

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The one that was giving you the problem.
Ok, gotcha. I'll try HPF on the inuke dsp at other frequencies and see what happens including 80hz.
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post #24 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Carp is one heck of an audio tinkerer. I can't think of anyone better to be tasked with ferreting this out based on recommendations and measurements. He has the patience to spend hour upon hour, even day upon day to get everything figured out and optimized! Definitely subscribed!

Haha, you mean I have a lot of free time in the summer!! I only wished I possessed some kind of intelligence to go along with my love of messing with this stuff.
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post #25 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:27 PM
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carp you know you need something like this to fiddle with on your new 215HT mains It even has a low cut filter.
$150

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-FBQ3...phic+equalizer

digital dsp? pshhhhh.... lol





other graphic eq options from Behringer
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Category...rs.aspx?s=H300

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #26 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:29 PM
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slopes are 6db/octave per 'order'
so 4th order is 24db/oct
8th order is 48db/oct

the mic2200 is probably 2nd order 12db/oct
try butterworth 12db/oct on the inuke and see if that works ok.

each 'order' of filter also rotates the phase 90 degrees
sealed tend to naturally rolloff at 12db oct roughly below their low corner.
so the very bottom end of the bass is roughly 180 degrees out of phase with the upper end.
ported rolloff at 3rd order below their low corner
so their very bottom end of the bass is roughly 270 degrees out of phase with the upper end, again roughly.
that's not really right, but just to introduce the concepts...
adding the high pass and low pass filter add to these numbers.

try a 12db/oct butterworth high pass in the inuke against the mic2200 and see if that works ok for you.
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post #27 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
carp you know you need something like this to fiddle with on your new 215HT mains It even has a low cut filter.
$150

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-FBQ3...phic+equalizer

digital dsp? pshhhhh.... lol





other graphic eq options from Behringer
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Category...rs.aspx?s=H300


Oooohh nice. Is the Q adjustable on all 31 bands? Haha, if I had that thing in college on my Cerwin Vega's I would have just set the biggest da*n smiley face configuration on it and called it a day!!
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post #28 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
slopes are 6db/octave per 'order'
so 4th order is 24db/oct
8th order is 48db/oct

the mic2200 is probably 2nd order 12db/oct
try butterworth 12db/oct on the inuke and see if that works ok.

each 'order' of filter also rotates the phase 90 degrees
sealed tend to naturally rolloff at 12db oct roughly below their low corner.
so the very bottom end of the bass is roughly 180 degrees out of phase with the upper end.
ported rolloff at 3rd order below their low corner
so their very bottom end of the bass is roughly 270 degrees out of phase with the upper end, again roughly.
that's not really right, but just to introduce the concepts...
adding the high pass and low pass filter add to these numbers.

try a 12db/oct butterworth high pass in the inuke against the mic2200 and see if that works ok for you.


Seriously John. Start teaching a summer audio course. I would sign up in a heart beat.

Haha, I would also fail. But I would enjoy every second of it.

I am now going to read this ^ post as many times as it takes to remember how this works... thanks man. I'll give it a shot tonight and post what happens.
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post #29 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 11:42 PM
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Great thread! Hey Carp, just saw this FBQ3102...looks like it would be fun to play with.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/msg/4577223458.html

He lives right by me and I could ship it if you are really interested in one of these...I bet he'd take $50
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post #30 of 101 Old 07-21-2014, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh good lord. I SWEAR I tried all the different HPF settings in the inuke. I must have missed BW 12 db slope.

So, per John's instructions I just tried it on the inuke and compared with the mic2200 HPF.





*Sigh*

Well, it's good news for me, no need to worry about integrating the mic2200 which would mean a different avr either with xlr outputs or just a higher output from the pre-outs to avoid all the hum/hiss the 2200 is giving me.

Haha, good thing I don't mind laughing at myself. No one really reads these threads anyway right? Maybe it was worthwhile, I have had some PM's asking about the bass and output capabilities of the 215's so I just directed them all to this thread since I included info about that.

Ok, that is all.

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