Help with DIY MartySUB (variety undetermined yet) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Lightbulb Help with DIY MartySUB (variety undetermined yet)

Greetings and many, many, many well deserved thanks to the members and sponsors of the AVS forums.

I've been a lurker here for 12 years. I've use the vast knowledge and DIY determination here to guide me through HT purchase, projector purchase (twice) 2 HTPC builds, Windows Home Server build, and even reference on the ELK M1 Gold alarm system. Amazing!

We recently moved into a new house, it's take a few months of various other priorities to get the HT room ready to go. It's actually our living room and not a dedicated home theater, just ask my wife . I setup my deftecs BP2004 mains, 2300 CLR and BPX2's. Connected to my Denon AVR-3806 (this is ready for an upgrade). We had direct tv put a new Genie box in and we swapped the PS3 for a dedicated Sony Blue-ray player. I ran my Audyssey as normal and then watched some HBO, Man of Steel, listened to some music and thought man do these speakers always impress me.

Then we watch Desolation of Smaug .... the dragon's roar/voice in the end made the BP's built in subs feel muddy and unclear (very few times has this happened, I've been very pleased with the setup for years). I knew then I had to do something... this led me on a journey of reading 85 pages of Marty Sub goodness, stone henge, parts express, etc, etc ,etc. Thanks to Donny, Eric and LTDO2, your work in this area is appreciated by this poster and sub crafting noob.

So since I lost a side wall in the new living room I put the BPX2's on the back wall and will be putting some in ceiling surrounds up, to go to 7.1. That is just more background.

I'm committed to a DIY sub. I have the tools (table saw, various routers, biscuit joiner, clamps, etc). I like the idea of making value from my sweat. I'm not an audiophile, I learned some and glossed over some in the last 2 weeks of research. I have tried several box calculators and am left with more questions. I even fell down the small cabinet passive radiator hole for a few days.

I was almost sold on the idea of a Ultimax 18" in a sealed cabinet, but all the talk of music being the the main focus for sealed subs drew me back to ported, well ported with a trip through passive radiator land. The Mary Box is pretty easy to construct if not design, this brought me back. The WAF is going to keep the form factor small (smallish for the normal people, just plain small for the AVS crowd). Along the way I am sold on the idea of the iNuke 3k/6k, the flexibility and quality soar over the plate amps I have seen.

Room is 14'x18'x12' the 18' side is the one missing the wall. listening position is at 15ft center.

So on with the questions.

Can I plan a sub(s) that will pair with the subs in the towers?

With subs in the towers upfront already, were would the new ones make the most impact, still upfront or side and rear?

Downfiring? Originally ruled out due to ridiculously thick carpet and pad, but then saw one with a plate built into the bottom. So if this is good practice, it's back on again.

Would I remove the LFE from the DT's and change the crossover? Or split the signal and put a filter on the DT's to keep them out of the <30hz range?

If tuning with the existing ins't an issue then what drivers in the 15" or 18" range are best suited for the smaller cabinets? (max is 30"x30"x30" - I would like to keep it a little smaller.)

Do I need a Rolls MB15b ProMatch to boost the Denon's signal?

What combination of driver and box design will get me down in the 19hz range?

Is there a drawback to using the light weight MDF?

Is there a sound or performance change to recessing the face so that a grille cover can be applied?

Is there a worry about grille cover resonance ( rattling )?

Does the self leveling 2 part finish have issues on the verticals, could I use it and let it self level on the top and roller the sides at the same time?

I know that's a lot of questions, and I don't expect the oracle to descend and enlighten me in a single post. But I wanted to get it all down.

I will do a build log on the ultimate selection and hopefully someone will benefit from my journey.

Thanks a ton!

Respectfully;

General Mayhem (rt)
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post #2 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 03:33 PM
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Two Marty 24 by 24 by 30 for 18hz tuning. Two si18d4 with inuke3000dsp. That will rock that room. Ultralight MDF is fine, I've built 20 sub's with it. Forget bass out if your mains. Once you get the new sub's you will know why.
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post #3 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 03:34 PM
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You can do downfiring just have to add 4 to 5 inches of height. Have to use driver that can handle down position.
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post #4 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Who has those in stock? Can you toss a couple of alternatives for smaller boxes, the 24x24x30 is the largest box I can go, I would prefer a 24x24x24 cube ... but I am willing to be talked into a night or two on the sofa with my woofers
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post #5 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem_702 View Post
Who has those in stock? Can you toss a couple of alternatives for smaller boxes, the 24x24x30 is the largest box I can go, I would prefer a 24x24x24 cube ... but I am willing to be talked into a night or two on the sofa with my woofers
Oh and thanks a ton for the reply!
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post #6 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 05:09 PM
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Any reason not to just do two Stonehendge RTA subs? Seems like a lot less work.
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post #7 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 05:37 PM
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Any reason not to just do two Stonehendge RTA subs? Seems like a lot less work.
if he's building himself the Stonehenge is more work with the bracing. yes you can do a cube, only difference is higher tune 20hz and 1-2 dB's less output from 20-30hz.

Not a huge difference.
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post #8 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 06:30 PM
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post #9 of 30 Old 07-22-2014, 06:56 PM
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Whats a marty sub?
Someone who goes overkill with bass to the point of melting their face off
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post #10 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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The stonehenge isn't a perfect fit, not off the table completely. I wanted to go with front ports and more stable base. I have little ones and they will climb on anything. Also with two of them, should the ports be on the same side or swapped? With a self cut and flat port along the top or bottom I could fiddle a little with tuning. Any difference in top or bottom porting other than looks?

Where else can I look for drivers? PE only has the Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" in stock for the 18's in the price range. The micro project has the 15" that are in stock at PE, that is looking better. I'm headed into back surgery at the end of September and I wanted to get these done before that.

What are you guys using to sketch up the boxes?

Thanks
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post #11 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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So I found the boxnotes application, can I use this with a flat channel port design (I made up flat channel port, becasue I'm not sure what to call the Marty style port). I would need to know the conversion of a rectangular port size to the port diameter that the software is looking at. Cool app by the way!
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post #12 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 11:54 AM
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Here is micro-cube

I think it would be good for you.
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post #13 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 12:07 PM
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Can I plan a sub(s) that will pair with the subs in the towers?


that's something that you will have to experiment with to know for sure, but it doesn't impact the type of sub that you build.

With subs in the towers upfront already, were would the new ones make the most impact, still upfront or side and rear?


that's also something worth experimenting with, but generally best to have them up front.

Downfiring? Originally ruled out due to ridiculously thick carpet and pad, but then saw one with a plate built into the bottom. So if this is good practice, it's back on again.


that's ok. only if you get a heavy driver with a soft suspension can it create some 'sag'.

Would I remove the LFE from the DT's and change the crossover? Or split the signal and put a filter on the DT's to keep them out of the <30hz range?


keep the LFE out of your mains and send it to the subs only even if running your mains 'full range'.

If tuning with the existing ins't an issue then what drivers in the 15" or 18" range are best suited for the smaller cabinets? (max is 30"x30"x30" - I would like to keep it a little smaller.)


try to make it as big as possible and just find a form factor that works. bigger cabs are more efficient with the bass, which makes them easier on the amp.

Do I need a Rolls MB15b ProMatch to boost the Denon's signal?


probably not.

What combination of driver and box design will get me down in the 19hz range?



lot's of combinations. the stereo integrity ht 18 may be the best value.

Is there a drawback to using the light weight MDF?


not if your cab is heavy and well braced.

Is there a sound or performance change to recessing the face so that a grille cover can be applied?


no difference for a sub.

Is there a worry about grille cover resonance ( rattling )?


mostly not. strong magnets can be put in the wood that make a tight fit.

Does the self leveling 2 part finish have issues on the verticals, could I use it and let it self level on the top and roller the sides at the same time?


not sure about that one.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #14 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I think I'm sold on the micro. I'll adjust the cuts to recess the driver a little.

How about the "Do I need a Rolls MB15b ProMatch to boost the Denon's signal?" question?
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post #15 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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LTDO2, I responded to Chalugadp before I saw yours. Thanks for the responses.
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post #16 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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If the SI 18 HT D4's were in stock I might be tempted to go with a MiniMarty, but I think that the in stock Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm will be a deciding factor in the micro-Marty.

Is the iNuke 3000 over kill for 2 micros with the 15" drivers? Or just right?
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post #17 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Opps, I just saw the the Micro's used the HO .... no problem those are in stock as well.
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post #18 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem_702 View Post
If the SI 18 HT D4's were in stock I might be tempted to go with a MiniMarty, but I think that the in stock Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm will be a deciding factor in the micro-Marty.

Is the iNuke 3000 over kill for 2 micros with the 15" drivers? Or just right?
Actually I'd get the inuke6000dsp. The 3000 can only put out 650 watts a side in 4ohms. The Dayton driver doesn't come in dual voice coil. Run the 6000 and put limiter to 1100 watts. You get almost 3 more dB's a side that way.
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post #19 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm an ok driver? Seems to me that the 18" over the 15" for just a little more space in the living room ... the 18" and a regular Marty Cube seems a no brainer. I have a call into SI to see when their 18" will be shipping again. Is that Dayton 18" ok with the tuning of the Marty Cube?
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post #20 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Chalugadp, where's the video I see mentioned a few times that you made?
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post #21 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 04:01 PM
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Chalugadp, where's the video I see mentioned a few times that you made?
This one

On my channel I have it broken down to 15 parts
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post #22 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mayhem_702 View Post
Is the Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm an ok driver? Seems to me that the 18" over the 15" for just a little more space in the living room ... the 18" and a regular Marty Cube seems a no brainer. I have a call into SI to see when their 18" will be shipping again. Is that Dayton 18" ok with the tuning of the Marty Cube?
I'm sure you won't get a response. I called numerous times and emailed with nothing.
I just ordered on faith in hopes they come around when the site says.
One of the phones and the ordering system even goes to sundown audio and not directly to stereo integrity.

I guess we shall see......
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post #23 of 30 Old 07-23-2014, 09:57 PM
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I'm sure you won't get a response. I called numerous times and emailed with nothing.
I just ordered on faith in hopes they come around when the site says.
One of the phones and the ordering system even goes to sundown audio and not directly to stereo integrity.

I guess we shall see......
I believe Stereo Integrity and Sundown are both owned by the same people. I went through the same experience... no responses to phone calls or emails. I eventually did get a partial response via email, but it was a week or two later. So, my choice at that point was to ask a follow up question via email lottery, and hope to get a response, or to just order the product. I chose the latter.

So many people have extolled the value proposition that SI's HT series represents. I do not have any doubts about the value or quality of the product. It's just too bad (i.e. frustrating) that their customer service is not up to the same standards as the product they produce.

For what it's worth, I believe that the same person that answered my original email is also one of the owners. If I am not mistaken, he personally tests every single SI sub driver before it is sent out. He is obviously proud of his product, which is awesome because as current or future DIY enthusiasts we all benefit. Being a smaller company, it may just be the case that he is so hyper focused on producing a quality product that he does not leave himself enough time for responding to customer inquiries. Again, that's too bad, because it's really in everyone's best interest to excel at both.
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post #24 of 30 Old 07-24-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Jones II View Post
I believe Stereo Integrity and Sundown are both owned by the same people. I went through the same experience... no responses to phone calls or emails. I eventually did get a partial response via email, but it was a week or two later. So, my choice at that point was to ask a follow up question via email lottery, and hope to get a response, or to just order the product. I chose the latter.

So many people have extolled the value proposition that SI's HT series represents. I do not have any doubts about the value or quality of the product. It's just too bad (i.e. frustrating) that their customer service is not up to the same standards as the product they produce.

For what it's worth, I believe that the same person that answered my original email is also one of the owners. If I am not mistaken, he personally tests every single SI sub driver before it is sent out. He is obviously proud of his product, which is awesome because as current or future DIY enthusiasts we all benefit. Being a smaller company, it may just be the case that he is so hyper focused on producing a quality product that he does not leave himself enough time for responding to customer inquiries. Again, that's too bad, because it's really in everyone's best interest to excel at both.
My experience was the same as Robert's back before the SI HT line was discontinued (and then undiscontinued .)

I had some questions and called but never reached anyone but I ordered anyway. They sent an email with a tracking number and now they're in my mud room and still waiting for some love.

Stereo Integrity is another company by the same people from Sundown and Obsidian. Nick says he tests every sub before shipping. Apparently he used to test only one voice coil but now tests both. Like all things in business: Price, Quality, or Service. Pick two. I prefer Price and Quality myself so I'm happy with my SI purchase.

By the way, it's probably easier to get a hold of Nick through the forums. Here or at home theater shack.
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post #25 of 30 Old 08-15-2014, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Update & Question:

I have received all my parts, 2 SI 18"s, iNuke6000dsp and various parts and pieces! One cabinet is ready for foam. I'm getting pretty excited.

I didn't think about wire / connector placement until now. I'd like my connector in the back of the box, but the port runs down the whole back. Is it unwise to run the wire up the port and over the back baffle? I could go on the top of the back I guess, that would save me from a loose wire hanging in the port.

Is this a real concern I have?

How concerned should I be with securing the wire inside the box? Hot glue? Actual tie downs?

Any concern over the spring loaded connectors on the SI's?

I'm holding off on the build post with pictures. Once I get it all wrapped up I'll get them posted.

I built a marty cube, and its' bigger than you realize. The SI 18's are massive from this noob's perspective.

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post #26 of 30 Old 08-15-2014, 07:41 PM
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Speakon thru back port is fine. Don't go over. Wire inside box needs nothing. Spring loaded work fine. Your getting close
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post #27 of 30 Old 08-20-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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On to wiring the subs/amps

OK, Now I two D4. DVC, 40ohms each.

With the NU6000DSP, there are two outputs on the back. The diagram also seems to show that the single connector marked "Channel A" can have both A & B on its 2 pair of connectors. This is a little confusing.

I also read somewhere that the NU600dsp was 2 NU3000dsp's in bridged mode. I'm looking for 7.2 so I will want two independent channels.

So let me take a shot at how this is going to work.


SUB-ID AMP-CH Speakon~1+ Speakon~1- Ohms
1 A VC1+ (jumper VC1- to VC2+) VC2- 8Ohms
2 B VC1+ (jumper VC1- to VC2+) VC2- 8Ohms

Is this correct?

Run the NU600DSP in Stereo correct? @ 8ohms it says 1600watts but from all I read that is an unrealistic number.

With the 8ohm load on NU6000DSP do I even need to limit the amp in high peak? I'm assuming high peak limiting is where I protect my 1100w driver from the 1600w amp? Correct high peak filter?

I think I've read the high pass filter / high shelf filter (negative to get below 20hz) although with the cube I shouldn't actually need anything below 20hz.

Thanks
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post #28 of 30 Old 08-21-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Speakon thru back port is fine. Don't go over. Wire inside box needs nothing. Spring loaded work fine. Your getting close
This worked perfectly! Thanks a ton.

What's the general thought on the gasket that comes with the 18 SI, use it or put gasket material down and don't use it ... OR gasket material AND the SI gasket??

Peace
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post #29 of 30 Old 08-22-2014, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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This worked perfectly! Thanks a ton.

What's the general thought on the gasket that comes with the 18 SI, use it or put gasket material down and don't use it ... OR gasket material AND the SI gasket??

Peace
Anyone? It doesn't look like much of a gasket, but it's the only gasket I've ever seen for a driver so I have no frame of reference.
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post #30 of 30 Old 08-25-2014, 10:05 AM
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putting some gasket tape down can't hurt. It's super cheap so do it just to be safe. Keep the SI gasket on too.
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