Horn vs. Ported - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I've since started thinking I am better off with some ported cabs, which my comfort and skill level can pull off designing and building easier, or perhaps building horns with a pre-existing and winning design like Ghorn.

But I was thinking that making something huge and monstrous and too much might be cool. I think I just have more space to work with, and less WAF restrictions than most so I am sailing in uncharted waters here.
Personally, with that much space, I'd start with large-baffle (IB) sealed subs. It's simple and quick to put together. All you need is the appropriate qty of drivers and amps and some rough calculations.

After you've got it running you'll have a much better idea about how the sound works in the space. Then, if you want more (deeper, louder, dynamics) you have options in:
- converting to ported
- adding more drivers
- adding more watts
- reallocating the drivers
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post #32 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 11:19 AM
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No. Not really place for IB and I want more output. I can't afford enough subs to get the output I want. I want more than average output. IB is great but one you go past 8 drivers you end up needing 64 or more to get that extra output; its a dead end.

I don't need single digits. But I'd like 10db over reference where it matters (15hz+)

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post #33 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 11:25 AM
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I can't afford enough subs to get the output I want.
...
I don't need single digits. But I'd like 10db over reference where it matters (15hz+)
Then ported is the obvious choice unless you think you have enough resources to go horn.
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post #34 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 11:45 AM
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Then ported is the obvious choice unless you think you have enough resources to go horn.
This! ^

The million dollar question, and hence why I was so interested in this awesome thread. My other option was go horns for volume, but not port low (think 25hz+) and then add in some ultra low ported subs with tune of 12hz or something like that. But I was worried the phase issues might make integrating them difficult.

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post #35 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 12:31 PM
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I think you need to set a budget and then see what you can put together that works within that. Horns have significant benefits for non-boundry (outside) venues but the extra cost of construction (design, labour, precision, materials) seems to wash-out when used for indoor applications.

You say, "I can't afford enough subs to get the output I want", but do you have enough to pay for the amps? Tools? Plywood? Time? Space does not seem to be your limiting constraint (18'x25'x?' riser, rear corners, front wall) but money does. What are your big limiting factors here? Money, time, power? I really think this discussion should be going into your design & build thread.
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post #36 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 12:35 PM
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Post a link to your project thread and maybe we can pick this up over there.
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post #37 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 01:04 PM
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Horns have significant benefits for non-boundry (outside) venues but the extra cost of construction (design, labour, precision, materials) seems to wash-out when used for indoor applications.
Horns get the same benefits indoors as direct radiators. Sound waves don't know if they're coming from horns, VBs or IBs, so they react the same way no matter what the source.
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post #38 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 01:06 PM
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Sound waves don't know if they're coming from horns, VBs or IBs, so they react the same way no matter what the source.
Absolutely.
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post #39 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'm planning a 36 foot long theater (25' wide) above a new construction garage, my riser will probably start around 17 or 18 feet and extend the entire way back so like 18 feet long. I was thinking I could fold some horns inside the riser.
A riser will be what 6-8" tall? Too thin for anything more than a SPUD clone.
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post #40 of 56 Old 07-25-2014, 07:59 PM
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10 foot ceilings going to 12 in center. I was thinking taller

But either way behind the screen and 60 cubes was ok.

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post #41 of 56 Old 07-26-2014, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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since you are so interested in horn sub, start a thread and i'll kick in some ideas. :-)

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post #42 of 56 Old 07-26-2014, 05:08 PM
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since you are so interested in horn sub, start a thread and i'll kick in some ideas. :-)
Ok- will do! Let me feed the babies but I will get it done. I'll link you when I do, I'm excited to hear your feedback.

I also had some conversation going here: Any problems mixing a bass horn with sealed subs? Better or worse than ported ?

That might be better to just continue ? If not I'll start a detailed thread when I can. You can also copy paste into that and continue if you get started early

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post #43 of 56 Old 07-26-2014, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by martinq View Post
Post a link to your project thread and maybe we can pick this up over there.
Need help designing serious bass solution for a big theater..horns vs ported or both?

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post #44 of 56 Old 07-26-2014, 09:52 PM
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post #45 of 56 Old 07-31-2014, 07:05 PM
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So is this thread dead or can we keep talking about ported vs horns ?

I did not intend to kill the line of conversation with my thread (which seems to have taken off)

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post #46 of 56 Old 08-14-2014, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Horns get the same benefits indoors as direct radiators. Sound waves don't know if they're coming from horns, VBs or IBs, so they react the same way no matter what the source.
I don't think that is entirely true.

All of the horn simulation software assumes the driver is firing into an anechoic space. Firing into an echoic space - like a finite sized room - presents a different kind of acoustic impedance to the driver inside the horn.

All of the measurements I've seen shown that the pressure gain from a room isn't as strong on a horn than a sealed enclosure - and it's more than just the faster rolloff of the horn.

The tapped horns show almost no benefit from room gain - and I attribute that to the fact that the "tapping" process emulates the same effect. Efficiency can't go above 50% under any condition, so there is a maximum room gain possible. Pressure vessel gain is not a 12dB/octave slope that can go to infinite gain if you go low enough. It's going to plateau to a finite DC pressure, and is probably better thought of as a shelf filter.
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post #47 of 56 Old 08-14-2014, 01:08 PM
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A tapped horn depends on a very strong third harmonic to fill in the saddle between the and to upper and lower peak right ? So this is why people say they are not as clean as a front horn ?

I've also never heard of the tapped horn not benefiting from room gain either. Interesting you say that. You think in a big space (8000 cubic feet) it makes more or less sense to use a tapped horn in an environment that isn't going to provide substantial room gain ?

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post #48 of 56 Old 08-14-2014, 04:40 PM
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A tapped horn depends on a very strong third harmonic to fill in the saddle between the and to upper and lower peak right ? So this is why people say they are not as clean as a front horn ?
They're not as clean as a front loaded horn because they run with higher excursion, and the rear wave doesn't have to make its way around as many bends, if any bends, of the horn. Horn bends are low pass filters, which reduce the passage of harmonics.
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post #49 of 56 Old 08-15-2014, 12:14 AM
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I was about to build dual othorns vs a dual 18 vented setup for my PA that would give the same performance. After reading, now I'm starting to doubt my decision.
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post #50 of 56 Old 08-15-2014, 12:55 AM
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What dual 18 vented set up would hang with dual Othorns?
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post #51 of 56 Old 08-15-2014, 06:51 AM
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What dual 18 vented set up would hang with dual Othorns?
One that uses 18s with twice the excursion as those in the horn?
It's not the least bit difficult to model the maximum SPL of different options in HornResp and know how they compare, rather than to speculate.

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post #52 of 56 Old 08-15-2014, 07:28 AM
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Then I guess at what frequency needs to be specified because there'll be a certain point that excursion can't save the day.
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post #53 of 56 Old 08-15-2014, 08:50 AM
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What dual 18 vented set up would hang with dual Othorns?
None.

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post #54 of 56 Old 08-15-2014, 08:54 AM
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Then I guess at what frequency needs to be specified because there'll be a certain point that excursion can't save the day.
You are thinking properly. There simply isn't a driver on the market that in a single 18" ported cabinet is going to full in the bottom at the same SPL as the Ohorn is laying down at it's tune and above. The driver doesn't exist.

You'd need to attack it with more drivers, double them up at a minimum. So perhaps (4) drivers ported and then two Ohorns on top. But again, you'll be getting the extra output from the ported cabinets so the bottom is not going to be same SPL as the top. Might as well just use all the same solution and attack the output requirement with more drivers and watts. Then you give up that violent clean horn bass though...

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post #55 of 56 Old 08-15-2014, 09:19 AM
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I was told it could be possible with 2 Faital Pro 18XL1600 in a box. I think i may have mistyped, i meant to say 2 othorns vs 2 dual 18 vented.
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post #56 of 56 Old 08-18-2014, 10:39 AM
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It's going to be hard for two ported boxed to keep up with two O horns above 30hz I think, and sound as clean.

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