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post #1 of 21 Old 07-24-2014, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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sub opinions needed

I'm working on planning/modeling the subs for my living room theater and am looking for some input. I have approximately 28cf of volume to play with, I also have 400wpc (@3ohm) and up to 6 channels of power on hand. This will be mostly for theater use. The only requests from my wife is that if we are going to do this then I want the popcorn in my bowl to move around. So....looking for up to 6 subs, or 3 dvc and the ability to play low in the volume allowed and have good output. I would be fine with using less subs if more volume is needed but I still want good output potential. Lastly I don't have a huge budget......maybe $1000 for the subs. I have been looking at dayton and stereo integrity 15s and 18s mostly. I currently have two sb acoustic 12s. I might consider adding more of the sb acoustic 12s, just not sure I can get the low and still have good power handling.

Thanks for any suggestions

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post #2 of 21 Old 07-24-2014, 07:18 PM
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The Dayton HO18 is a great driver and with two of them on a pair of amps in bridged mode, should give you great performance. Same with the SI's. I would recommend that you sell those SB Acoustics drivers and get some real 18" subs. You did not list the size of your room, which is a big factor in what you need. Perhaps go with 4 of the SI's or Dayton's if you can have money left over for wood, speakon cables and connectors, ect.. Oh and 300 watts isn't that much for 18" subs. Perhaps you could sell those amps and pick up one or two of the Behringer iNuke3000dsp amplifiers as they can be found for around $280 or so. Go with ported enclosures if you want loud, chest thumping bass!
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post #3 of 21 Old 07-24-2014, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a 9 channel integra amplifier that matches my receiver and blue-ray player. I'm pleased with the rack so I would like to use the power I already have. If I went with ported Dayton 18s or si 18s I would have less concern of over excursion in low passages. The low power per sub is also why I am considering several subs rather than one or two subs.
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post #4 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outvoted View Post
I have a 9 channel integra amplifier that matches my receiver and blue-ray player. I'm pleased with the rack so I would like to use the power I already have. If I went with ported Dayton 18s or si 18s I would have less concern of over excursion in low passages. The low power per sub is also why I am considering several subs rather than one or two subs.
Your 9 channel amp is made to drive speakers, not subs. In a typical surround sounds setup, you would not have 5-9 massive full range speakers that carry the low-end in addition to having subs. Your subs will handle the bass and everything else gets crossed over at 80Hz or so. What are you using for speakers?
No doubt that your Integra amp is an excellent piece of gear, but it does not have the power supply to sufficiently drive all of your speakers and feed massive amounts of current to your subs too when the bass hits. You need something with a massive power supply dedicated to only a couple of channels. You can still keep that setup to run all of your speakers off of, you'll just need to pick up an additional amp, like a Behringer Inuke series, Peavey IPR series, CV, Crown, Crest, etc., to run the subs.
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post #5 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I am using the integra receiver to drive the 5 speakers. I might bi-amp the front three and use three of the channels of the integra amp for this purpose, but I'm undecided about that. Right now the integra amp is driving 4 sb acoutic subs. It has good output but the sb subs just don't get as low as I would like. I know 300-400 watts to each sub isn't a lot of power, but when you have 5-6 subs with that 300-400 watts there is still quite a bit of air being moved.
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post #6 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outvoted View Post
I am using the integra receiver to drive the 5 speakers. I might bi-amp the front three and use three of the channels of the integra amp for this purpose, but I'm undecided about that. Right now the integra amp is driving 4 sb acoutic subs. It has good output but the sb subs just don't get as low as I would like. I know 300-400 watts to each sub isn't a lot of power, but when you have 5-6 subs with that 300-400 watts there is still quite a bit of air being moved.
Is your Integra the DTA-70.1?
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post #7 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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That's the one
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post #8 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 06:42 AM
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We could go back and forth all day, but I won't. Instead, I'll just leave this.

From Sound and Visions review:
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 111.5 watts
1% distortion at 125.2 watts
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 119.1 watts
1% distortion at 137.7 watts

If you think that you'll end up with 300-400 watts per channel to drive subs with while you're bi-amping your front 3, or even just straight powering your front 3, you're wrong.
But, people will do what people will do. It's your money! Good luck.
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post #9 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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People will do what people will do, its my money........um, okay thanks.....I guess.
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post #10 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 07:49 AM
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You are in an interesting situation. On one hand, you made a promise to your wife that she would have "popcorn shaking bass". On the other hand, you appear very wedded to an amp that will be very, very, very, challenged to meet that promise. Roughly 100 wpc is not going to run the 18's that were suggested earlier, nor is it even within the suggested band of power for something smaller like the Infinity 1262. (Yes I understand your amp advertises 300 wpc, but advertised and real power are two very different things. Which is what dtsdig is pointing out.)

If you approach this with an open mind, for $1,000 and with 28 cft for cabs you can get a setup that will shake a lot more on your wife than just her popcorn. Two SI18's and an iNuke3000DSP would be an excellent start.
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post #11 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outvoted View Post
People will do what people will do, its my money........um, okay thanks.....I guess.
Why would you even want to drive a sub with 1/10 or so of the power that it's capable of handling? You'd be giving up probably 10-12 db just based on lack of power per driver. To me it would seem like a complete waste to invest money on drivers that you're going to get maybe 10-15% out of. Like you said though, it's your money.
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post #12 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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by stating "people will do what people will do, it's my money" I was cust commenting on what dtsdig said....Yes I don't have 4000 watts of power. Also where are you getting that I am trying to drive woofers with 1/10 of the rated power. The only sub recommened so far was a dayton ho 18 which handles 900w (which can be driven past xmax with 200w below 20hz in a ported enclosure). Just to use the reveiwers figures of the dta 70.1 compared to the factory specs. 130w @ 8ohm still gives me 250ish @ 3-4ohm. Are you guys seriously trying to say that 250wpc on 5-6 subs is useless??? Or somehow 1/10 the power any subs can handle?? Sorry guys, I know there is more and/or better power out there, but I already own this amp and that is what I am going to use. So it produces less power than the specs say, okay......it still produces useable power and at 250wpc for 6 channels we are still talking about 1500 total watts. I am currently using this amp to drive 4 sb acoustic 12s. The sb acoustic subs just don't reach the lower end as much as I would like. Which gets me back to the original question......Looking for input on subs. I know power is part of the bass equation, thats why I am looking to use several subs rather than 1 or 2 to help overcome not having as much power.
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post #13 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 09:57 AM
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18-30hz needs power. Unless your going to do a horn enclosure you won't find success with any driver.
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post #14 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outvoted View Post
by stating "people will do what people will do, it's my money" I was cust commenting on what dtsdig said....Yes I don't have 4000 watts of power. Also where are you getting that I am trying to drive woofers with 1/10 of the rated power. The only sub recommened so far was a dayton ho 18 which handles 900w (which can be driven past xmax with 200w below 20hz in a ported enclosure). Just to use the reveiwers figures of the dta 70.1 compared to the factory specs. 130w @ 8ohm still gives me 250ish @ 3-4ohm. Are you guys seriously trying to say that 250wpc on 5-6 subs is useless??? Or somehow 1/10 the power any subs can handle?? Sorry guys, I know there is more and/or better power out there, but I already own this amp and that is what I am going to use. So it produces less power than the specs say, okay......it still produces useable power and at 250wpc for 6 channels we are still talking about 1500 total watts. I am currently using this amp to drive 4 sb acoustic 12s. The sb acoustic subs just don't reach the lower end as much as I would like. Which gets me back to the original question......Looking for input on subs. I know power is part of the bass equation, thats why I am looking to use several subs rather than 1 or 2 to help overcome not having as much power.
Someone stated above that the real RMS power of your amp is closer to 100W/channel... so if you're talking sub that is rated at 900W then perhaps my 1/10 estimate was off; it would be more like 1/8 - 1/9.

Why wouldn't you just save your money and buy subs rated at 200W or something that better matches the amp that you are so set on using?

Even if you use 5-6 subs with 100-200 watts of real power to each, you're getting less performance than you would out of 1-2 of the same driver giving it the power that it wants to perform at its peak. For low frequency content like others have mentioned above you need plenty of power on tap; you'll be clipping your amp more often than not if you go down the path you're planning.
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post #15 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the suggestions

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post #16 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 04:23 PM
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while powering your subs off your main amp really isn't recommended for a variety of reasons, IF we try to work within that limitation, there are some possibilities.

the first thing is that the subwoofer system must be as efficient as possible to get the most spl with the least amount of power. so let's think big ported cabs.

second, there is the possibility of using dual voice coil drivers and wiring each coil with one channel of the amp. that will at least allow you to double up the power into each driver. ah, double power!


28 cubic feet is just great. it can be a simple slot port and tuned to 18hz. that is the sweet spot between extension and spl output.
three drivers will cost about $200 or so each delivered, iirc, so well within your budget.


stereo integrity dual 4 ohm drivers is what you want.


here is the system performance with 3 drivers, 100 watts off each channel to each coil on the subs, for a total of 600 watts.


120db at 20hz before room gain is sufficient to move some popcorn. :-)
the specific form factor can be worked out easily enough.


:-)



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post #17 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 04:53 PM
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As someone suggested earlier, two SI or Dayton 18s, in sealed boxes, with a inuke 3000dsp would be a great start.

- $450 for drivers
- $150 for wood and supplies
- $300 for amp

All for less than $1,000.


I am running two SI-18s in sealed boxes in my 1900 cuft room, powered by an EP2500. I was just playing with REW and MiniDSP last night. This was the response curve I came up with for now.

I sold my SVS subwoofer and replaced it with the SI-18s. The SVS wishes it could go anywhere near 10hz.
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post #18 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
while powering your subs off your main amp really isn't recommended for a variety of reasons, IF we try to work within that limitation, there are some possibilities.

the first thing is that the subwoofer system must be as efficient as possible to get the most spl with the least amount of power. so let's think big ported cabs.

second, there is the possibility of using dual voice coil drivers and wiring each coil with one channel of the amp. that will at least allow you to double up the power into each driver. ah, double power!


28 cubic feet is just great. it can be a simple slot port and tuned to 18hz. that is the sweet spot between extension and spl output.
three drivers will cost about $200 or so each delivered, iirc, so well within your budget.


stereo integrity dual 4 ohm drivers is what you want.


here is the system performance with 3 drivers, 100 watts off each channel to each coil on the subs, for a total of 600 watts.


120db at 20hz before room gain is sufficient to move some popcorn. :-)
the specific form factor can be worked out easily enough.


:-)



Now we are getting somewhere.....Also everyone seems to be fixed on 100wpc. That was a rating for 8ohm, the amp is stable at 3ohm so that should be a bit more power. Thanks for the suggestions.
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post #19 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 06:21 PM
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on the rear panel, it specified 11.7 amps.


on a 120v socket, that translates to 11.7 * 120 = 1404 theoretical watts at 100% efficiency.


the power supply is torroidal, so it is probably about 75% efficient, which gives 1053 watts.


1053 watts / 9 channels is 117 watts per channel.


interestingly, the rear panel also shows power for Australian 240v as...1050 watts, which would be 115 watts per channel all channels driven.


some of the guys here have an eye for that kind of stuff. no worries though. it is what it is.


also, if you change your mind after building the big ported 3x18" sub (or 3 individual units), upgrading to inuke amps or something similar is an easy switch.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #20 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 06:26 PM
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outvoted -> LOT is a genius and I would do exactly as he says.

The only thing I have to throw in though... And again just my opinion through experience. My father and I when I was young made a few subwoofers and ran them off a BRYSTON power amp, which should be just as capable if not MORE capable than what you have. We built HUGE enclosures and used ultra efficient woofers.

Long story short, lucky for my father BRYSTON back then had a LIFETIME warranty and they gave him a new amp. Now a days I believe they only provide 20 year warranty.

I think you need to consider the fact that your amp is NOT designed to play the lowest octaves, and it will DEFINITELY struggle and probably shorten the life span significantly. Then you will need to by a new amp for your speakers, and then a INUKE that should have been purchased anyways...

I like to think long run... And I can also say, trust the guys on the forum as I am... Sometimes it is hard, and you think you may know better... But just like me... We do not.

Buy an INUKE3000 DSP for $250
Buy 2 si 18" D4 subwoofers for 400
Buy the wood for say 250

For about $1000 you will be set for MANY years.

Again this is just my input, and it may sound bias as I am doing the EXACT same thing... But I'm only doing it this way because these fantastic, and knowledgable people on this forum have directed me to do so. And trust me, and them... They are correct. It is the cheapest best bass you can get.

Don't make the same mistake as my father and I.

Hope this helps, no mean to disrespect!

God bless!
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post #21 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 06:27 PM
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Give it a try. I'm running two sub's with 650 watts and one at 1100 watts. All subs are same. The lower powered sub will clip easier. Music and regular bass scenes are fine. When you have an intense scene that extra 3 dB's comes in handy. If your not listening louder then -10 dB's from reference you will be fine. At reference you will be most likely clipping.
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