Need help designing serious bass solution for a big theater..horns vs ported or both? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 07:36 PM
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the numbers on the right describe the expansion rate of each section and can be ignored.


compression ratio is sd or 2x sd (if using 2 drivers) divided by s2.


switch to 2.0 pi space for comparison.


also, here is the lilwrecker model with the sws15 driver vs. the lilwrecker oem driver (kicker cvx which has now exploded in price).


sws in black.


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post #92 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 07:42 PM
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You should use LTD's horn design you have and go into tools and click on loudspeaker wizard. Move the sliders around and look at schematic. You will see exatly what those parameters do. Also you can then go to response and see how it affects everything. Easiest way to learn what all the numbers mean.
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post #93 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure if I am thinking this all through properly... some advice requested.

Let's assume my riser is 16 feet long from where it starts (second row) to the back of the room. Let's also assume it's 23 feet wide. [room is 25 but we might lose some so lets play safe]. If riser was 18" high.. then the volume of that would be 16'x23'x1.5' right ? 552 cubic feet ?

That is over 15,000 liters. Would it be possible to mount (8) drivers in the beginning of the horn and have them load in a 15,000 liter horn or would my house explode or something ?

Like this (lol @ my 8 second MS paint skills )





Is that totally insane ? or just wouldn't work ? How come ? Pressure on drivers?
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post #94 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the numbers on the right describe the expansion rate of each section and can be ignored.
compression ratio is sd or 2x sd (if using 2 drivers) divided by s2.
Is that displayed anywhere or I just need to do math to figure it out ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
You should use LTD's horn design you have and go into tools and click on loudspeaker wizard. Move the sliders around and look at schematic. You will see exatly what those parameters do. Also you can then go to response and see how it affects everything. Easiest way to learn what all the numbers mean.
Good advice! That's what I have been doing. Ideally I'd like to build a bigger lilwrecker, more volume, and possibly a tad lower extension. My goal would be to emulate that but in a larger space I have available to possibly offer more output/smoother response/lower extension.

I'm just getting confused if there is a practicle limit about how many drivers I could horn load in a single bass horn ? 2 is ok? What about 4? or 8?

Would a single giant horn and all 8 drivers loaded into it work better than (8) smaller horns like a microwrecker ?

I modeled for chits and giggles (8) SI18" in 300cube and 400 cube ported boxes tuned at 11hz/12hz/13hz. Nice looking response. Makes me wonder if this horn folding is worth it ? How much better can I do for the same $$ ? Since I am glutton for punishment the adventurer in me think folding 8-12 monster horns would be fun and I'd get to have something that is basically unobtanium. 8 in the riser and 4 behind the screen could be totally stupid. I like stupid.

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post #95 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 10:49 PM
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You can build a horn with as many drivers as you want. BUT they need to be loading the horn the same other wise each woofer will have different stresses and the over all response will be horrible. I would make a bunch of smaller TH's verse massive large one because of room modes and other room acoustic problems.

But you already mentioned having multiple subs around the room. I know you said your budget was whatever but when you get into it money goes VERY fast. I saw a build a while ago that had some simple Eminence 12" drivers in all the columns and around a 60hz tune. Main subs were up front and it performed amazingly.

BUT everyone has a different opinion, room and wants. I cant keep up with everyone around here and there deep pockets. I am still trying to gather small parts for my subs, new mains and build another computer. But when I start to get ready to build other life issues come into play and there goes the money. OR your thread moves onto another idea about servers.
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post #96 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 10:55 PM
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this kind of design would provide fairly similar loading per driver. I'm not sure, but the model shows about 135db+ down to around 16hz. of course a longer fold could give a lower tune. :-)
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post #97 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 11:28 PM
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this one has about 22 foot path length and about a 19hz tune. lol.




max spl 2 pi space.





1 watt.





hornresp numbers. note this is 8 drivers.





so...yes, the concept can work and I'm sure this can all be improved on, but holy crap!
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post #98 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 11:34 PM
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LTD and his small horn designs.
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post #99 of 435 Old 07-28-2014, 11:52 PM
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expanding on what appears to be a good idea...

path length extends to about ~26 feet, ~775cm
not an exact scale drawing.





response with 1 watt:









max spl:



excursion at 2kw (130db at 15hz):



since it goes "below" the seating area...thus born was the ÜNTERHORN!

[anything so outrageously large must have a german ring to it. :-)]
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post #100 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 12:11 AM
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"Is that displayed anywhere or I just need to do math to figure it out ?"


if you mouse over s2 and the value is within some range, it will display the compression ratio in the bar at the bottom of the program.


"LTD and his small horn designs."


i wasn't the one who determined the size. :-) i was just trying to work within the op's constraints.

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post #101 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinq View Post
So you have about 8000 cu.ft. of space. Of that how much could the riser use?

If it was 14", then you could try to fold some good basshorns in there.

14" x 16' x 23.5' = 438 cu.ft.

You could fit two optimal (200 cu.ft.) LAB12 basshorns in there. Each should be capable of 130db(ish) down to 20Hz or below on about 200W each. Would be a fun project and the drivers will be under $400!
With EQ they 'may' get to near 20Hz in room. I had the first pair of LAB12 subs built in Australia to my knowledge (had drivers shipped from OCS on the day of release), and corner loaded they got to 20Hz. They'd make a very high riser.
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post #102 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
With EQ they 'may' get to near 20Hz in room. I had the first pair of LAB12 subs built in Australia to my knowledge (had drivers shipped from OCS on the day of release), and corner loaded they got to 20Hz. They'd make a very high riser.
Are the Lab-12's well suited for.horn loaded enclosures? Can you or anyone else link to that horn that was mentioned to get to 130Db?
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post #103 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 04:16 AM
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it is a completely different animal.


http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/l...pecs_and_more/


frequency response is something kind of like this:


http://audioroundtable.com/forum/ind...msg&goto=51447

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post #104 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 04:36 AM
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Are the Lab-12's well suited for.horn loaded enclosures?
They were designed for a horn enclosure. See LTD's links.

My last quad are going to be the LF section of a 4 way direct radiator.
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post #105 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 05:38 AM
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A9X you seem to always have some amazing projects going on. To bad I am so far away from you and the Melbourne crew.
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post #106 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
expanding on what appears to be a good idea...
path length extends to about ~26 feet, ~775cm
not an exact scale drawing.



response with 1 watt:






max spl:


excursion at 2kw (130db at 15hz):


since it goes "below" the seating area...thus born was the ÜNTERHORN!

[anything so outrageously large must have a german ring to it. :-)]
WHOAH! Holy Crap is right!

This is just plain stupid. I like stupid.

So let me wrap my head around this for a second. So with like 10 watts this pig would do reference level bass ? And at full tilt would be laying down the bass at 15hz at about 135db ? I like it. I like it a lot!

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post #107 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok...

I am trying to get a handle on this project and the realistic execution of it. There is several factors that make the project cool, not not easily executed. My primary concern is the performance of the theater, but this is going to be a nice looking dedicated theater. With stained hard wood, vaneer, fabric frames, star field, coffered and stepped ceilings, stage, AT screen etc...

After thinking it through there is a lot of elements that come up that make me think it's a bad venture. A few:

-I would want access to the subs for service or replacement. Don't want them buried under the carpet. Carpet might be $7500 for this room. Not cutting through that if I blow a sub or want to upgrade a driver.

-The mouth would be behind the first row. That might be excessive beyond tolerable. Also putting chairs in front of the mouth might not help things.

-It would be difficult to match similar subs behind the AT screen.

-Although SPL wise for the $$ it's awesome, the response might not be as great as individual ported or horns spread around different locations.

-It's not something I can easily test so I'm kind of stuck with the results. That means it's a gamble, could be great or could be problematic.


From a practical standpoint it seems like folding 4 large horns and putting them behind the AT screen, and perhaps a couple more in the back of the room plus adding some smoothing subs in the columns make the most sense. I should have good response, and plenty of SPL. I can move them around too.

Anyone agree or disagree that it's smarter to abandon the riser sub idea in favor of a more traditional horn ?

I'm thinking something with a 15hz tune that is like a Ghorn or Lilwrecker makes sense. But since I have a little more space to work with does it make sense to try for a front loaded horn instead of a tapped horn and use my space ? I'm thinking I could fit (4) horns behind my AT screen that were 3 feet wide, 6 feet tall and 3 feet deep. That's a lot of space. perhaps 30" deep make sense to be safe.

Thoughts and advice ? Would that not perform as good as the riser monster LTD was suggesting/designing ?

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post #108 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 09:51 AM
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I still think you should do 4-8 large ported subs tuned at 14 ish. You don't need 150 dB, you can't even use that, you would literally rupture your ear drums. Even 130 db is crazy loud, well at least in the upper bass freqs, not so much at like 30 hz and down.
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post #109 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
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I still think you should do 4-8 large ported subs tuned at 14 ish. You don't need 150 dB, you can't even use that, you would literally rupture your ear drums. Even 130 db is crazy loud, well at least in the upper bass freqs, not so much at like 30 hz and down.
This is terrific advice. Very easy upgrade path there, simply add more.

You are talking about very lavish expenditures for this theater. Think about doing the same for the subs. Get good drivers, and add more when funding permits. If you are thinking of pushing inexpensive drivers to their limits, be ready for inexpensive driver distortion.

The uber-horn idea posted is novel, but completely untested and a one-off. That is a lot of unused space where multiple horns could be placed next to one another forming the riser and firing out by the back wall.

If horns will be your path, pick or create a design and use multiples. Using a different alignment for 'smoothing subs' is asking for trouble regardless of the DSP power on hand.

Designing, building and optimizing a horn is not a trivial exercise, and your first attempt WILL BE YOUR WORST. Guaranteed. HornResp makes it easy to get a pretty response, but making sure it will work at high SPL is a different story without building and testing, trashing, re-designing, building, testing, rinse and repeat. It is a long road, but I think worth it in the end, but you must have the time, and with 2 babies, that time will become more and more a precious commodity if you want them to know who you are.

JSS
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post #110 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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My backup plan always was ported. Construction and design I am comfortable with. What the difference in output and distortion ? My gut feeling was telling me horns are cleaner and would sound better.

So how about something like $1000 worth a drivers in a horn with extension and tune to the teens (think lilwrecker or Ghorn) vs $1000 worth of ported subs at 15hz. Difference in output ? Distortion ? Extension ? sound quality ?

the labor is acceptable to me provided there is a realistic return on my investment I secretly like this stuff. Perhaps I'll start with 4 ported simple subs and then get super stupid after the theater is completed. That makes sense too. I just did not want to blow the opportunity to design something awesome into the room itself.

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post #111 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 04:52 PM
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The problem with 'design into the room' is the final freq response at the seats is a guess at best. No wiggle room in placement. I still think multiple horns are workable, but it will take time to design and build and test something that will significantly outperform the ported box. If this is something you like to do, then I will def. follow along as you design a horn that will perform well in multiples, and add my 2c when I can. Design a horn and let it gently roll off like LTD02's examples. Then use the 'multiple speakers' function in Hornresp and see that low corner rise to get a flat response in the passband.....

The decision between TH and FLH is a tough one. THs offer much greater sensitivity per cuft of enclosure, esp at the low corner. FLHs offer better distortion performance, larger passband, and better impulse response, at the expense of size, and excursion. For a given passband, and a size limitation, TH wins. If you have the room, an FLH is probably the better choice. Both are great choices.

If I were you, home wreckers or lil-wreckers all around. Easy. Great SPL for little power, down to 15 or 12Hz, both are well-engineered enclosures. Build either one and see for yourself, then imagine 6 more dB for every doubling of enclosures. Place them where the most seats will get the best response. Done.

Want the best impulse response? IB. Then sealed, then ported, then FLH, then TH.


JSS
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post #112 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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What is a home wrecker ?

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post #113 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 05:34 PM
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That ÜNTERHORN would rock.
I think you would be very, very pleased with the output of 2 drivers to start, the tweaking is all in the rear chamber volume, which you could easily make a removable panel to access. the only problem you will have with the row of seat at the mouth is fighting for them.

Homewrecker is what a big horn is capable of doing to your house, I know I have enough power on hand to break every window in the house with one quick burst.
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post #114 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
What is a home wrecker ?

Sorry, house wrecker.

the HouseWrecker. 11hz Twin CVX-15 Tapped Horn

JSS
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post #115 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
With EQ they 'may' get to near 20Hz in room. I had the first pair of LAB12 subs built in Australia to my knowledge (had drivers shipped from OCS on the day of release), and corner loaded they got to 20Hz. They'd make a very high riser.
I'm talking about the LAB12 driver for this application, not the LAB-Horn design.
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post #116 of 435 Old 07-29-2014, 11:33 PM
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the lab 12 driver is great. lab 15 is great too. lots of drivers work in horns. for bass horns, it comes down to how much volume displacement the driver has for max spl in combination with horn size. check out the thread ported vs horns.

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post #117 of 435 Old 07-30-2014, 05:07 AM
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I think people may not be grasping the OP's intention for insanity. One only needs to take a glance at his signature to understand where he is coming from. I fully understand what he wants because I am the same and I still say that the ported choice will be a compromise (at least it is for me). He has also outlined over and over that his budget is limited and regardless of what he chooses he is looking for value. Nothing has value or insanity like a horn, especially since he is willing to put in time,effort, has the space and can arrange for the extra wood required for the horns. I will add that max makes a good point about horn design not being a simple exercise and requiring experience and knowledge to get a well designed horn and that does matter.

In my view if the OP can find someone experienced and knowledgeable to help him design his horns then the horn route is undoubtedly the best one and will leave the ported in the dust. Will he use all of the capability all the time? No but for the few times he wants to get insane that grin on his face as he keeps turning up the volume will be priceless. To be fair most of the people around here don't use their 5Hz capability all the time either, and as many have pointed out with HPF/LPFs at 20Hz the below 20Hz region can barely be noticed. If it is okay (and encouraged) for people to have 8 drivers or more to chase 5Hz, what is wrong if the OP wants 150db? People don't need 5Hz just like they don't need 150db. We are in this hobby because we want.

If the OP wants excess and clearly does so with a passion, I say follow the dream.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #118 of 435 Old 07-30-2014, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
expanding on what appears to be a good idea...

path length extends to about ~26 feet, ~775cm
not an exact scale drawing.




since it goes "below" the seating area...thus born was the ÜNTERHORN!

[anything so outrageously large must have a german ring to it. :-)]
This thread just made a turn...for the epic!
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post #119 of 435 Old 07-30-2014, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
I think people may not be grasping the OP's intention for insanity. One only needs to take a glance at his signature to understand where he is coming from. I fully understand what he wants because I am the same and I still say that the ported choice will be a compromise (at least it is for me). He has also outlined over and over that his budget is limited and regardless of what he chooses he is looking for value. Nothing has value or insanity like a horn, especially since he is willing to put in time,effort, has the space and can arrange for the extra wood required for the horns. I will add that max makes a good point about horn design not being a simple exercise and requiring experience and knowledge to get a well designed horn and that does matter.

In my view if the OP can find someone experienced and knowledgeable to help him design his horns then the horn route is undoubtedly the best one and will leave the ported in the dust. Will he use all of the capability all the time? No but for the few times he wants to get insane that grin on his face as he keeps turning up the volume will be priceless. To be fair most of the people around here don't use their 5Hz capability all the time either, and as many have pointed out with HPF/LPFs at 20Hz the below 20Hz region can barely be noticed. If it is okay (and encouraged) for people to have 8 drivers or more to chase 5Hz, what is wrong if the OP wants 150db? People don't need 5Hz just like they don't need 150db. We are in this hobby because we want.

If the OP wants excess and clearly does so with a passion, I say follow the dream.

Just my 2 cents.
This is ONE house wrecker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYfYZ...ature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfzbi...ature=youtu.be

I am recommending FOUR to EIGHT of them.

If THIS is not considered insanity, I don't know what will qualify.


JSS
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post #120 of 435 Old 07-30-2014, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post
This is ONE house wrecker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYfYZ...ature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfzbi...ature=youtu.be

I am recommending FOUR to EIGHT of them.

If THIS is not considered insanity, I don't know what will qualify.


JSS
My comment was not directed at the house wrecker but ported subs.
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