Need help designing serious bass solution for a big theater..horns vs ported or both? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 69Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #211 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 06:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
Models of what? If you mean my 40Hz + FLHs are not DIY, they are commercial. Pair of Danley BC412.


My post said -

"The horn will have more headroom is the point, for a given budget in drivers, any budget, especially in the frequency range that matters and that is the entire point. Ported is great if you want the absolute maximum measured SPL in the 15-30Hz range for a given volume of space, at least until the size gets ridiculous but above the excursion limited zone the horn will destroy the ported in the same space as they tend to have a falling response when undersized and the top end will have far greater output than the excursion limited region. Anyone who says that horns are only for budget minded people doesn't understand horns or has not heard powerful horns, I can speak for myself that doing what notnyt did was in the cards budget wise but I had no interest in ported cabs and went a different route. I request anyone posting here to stand in front of a stack of LAB horns (at least 6) at full tilt and tell me what amount of ported cabs will do that subjectively, in my view no amount of ported subs will achieve the same subjective result, you may get as loud on the meter but it won't sound or feel the same,whether you prefer the horn or the ported is a matter of preference. Some people make comparisons to horns based on horns that are not particularly powerful, a common example being the THT, in my view the THT is not a good example of a FLH.

Max if your comment about head room was directed at me, the systems I compared had adequate headroom compared to the horn."

Budget is one of the major points of this thread so I mention budget. As for space any driver in any given space will have more output in a horn,especially above the excursion limited zone. I was not speaking of fitting multiple drivers in the same space, I was speaking of utilizing it driver for driver, $ for $ as is the real world scenario. If you use enough drivers compared to a single horn with a single driver then obviously at some point you will measure more SPL from the stack of drivers. I thought this was obvious and I don't argue that at all. I am saying that when one has an X budget in drivers then when you buy the drivers you will leverage a LOT more out of each driver in a horn if you have space. Space is the limiting factor with a horn which the OP has and he likes their sound and he wants value, hence my argument.

You agree they don't sound the same then, that is all I was trying to say. Whether you prefer it or not is a different matter. I also feel that the difference is not simply a matter of response. A long time ago I had matched the response of quad ported 21s and the DTS 10s but they still had a different sound.

You say I should stick with the LAB when I already told you I don't have LABs...
Mostly in agreement, but OP mentioned he wanted extension to 14 or 15hz. There's not going to be a horn that will adequately provide that. Mixing and matching, you still won't keep up on the bottom end, so it ends up being an exercise in futility. By the time you can keep up on the bottom end, you might as well run everything full range and then there's no real need for horns at all in this scenario. I won't argue at all that horns will be more efficient and provide more output above certain frequencies, however I personally feel they don't provide adequate output down low, especially for an HT application.

For music, it's not much of a competition. If you have the space, horns will kick ported ass since you can get away with running only 35hz and up.

When my lab15s get here, I'd build a horn if I could fit one under my bench. Unfortunately, ported box tuned to ~34hz it is in ~5cufft.
notnyt is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #212 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Home wrecker sounds more like you'll ruin your marriage. Which is also possible
Yes! "HOME WRECKER"

SO LOUD it will crack your walls
SO LOW it will break your windows
SO HEAVY it will fall through your floor
SO BIG and UGLY your wife will divorce you

"HOME WRECKER"

That's exactly what I want.

I see this thread blew up in a good way! I'm headed home now and I'll catch up when I can. I like the conversation and charts and all that. I'm digging it.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #213 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
OK really quick... The space thing keeps coming up but I am not looking for the most bass per space, I am looking for the best bass possible in unlimited space. 90 cubic foot cabinets and multiples of them is fine.

I can't simply double up the drivers of say an LMS Ultra and get the same output per space because my wife will leave me if I charge all those drivers on our credit card, and I'll end up paying child support, never seeing my kids while my wife runs off with another guy who has bigger subwoofers than me. That would suck a lot. Nope. Can't do that.

So LMS is fine but $2000 means I can get 2 of them. That's it. Only 2 is going to get pounded by $2000 of APLINE drivers in big folded horns, or 8 SI18's in big ported boxes. The bass per space might be important for some, but it's irrelevant here. I'm looking for the absolute best bass solution for $2000 in drivers and a reasonable amount in amps and other stuff. Best means a lot of things, headroom, dynamics, distortion, smoothness at the LP, SPL, extension etc... I WANT IT ALL. Too much is almost enough. Winning designer gets to be proclaimed a genius and see their creation built by me !

This will never be a pussified WAF factor build here. Embrace the crazy. It doesn't come too often.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #214 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 06:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Mostly in agreement, but OP mentioned he wanted extension to 14 or 15hz. There's not going to be a horn that will adequately provide that. Mixing and matching, you still won't keep up on the bottom end, so it ends up being an exercise in futility. By the time you can keep up on the bottom end, you might as well run everything full range and then there's no real need for horns at all in this scenario. I won't argue at all that horns will be more efficient and provide more output above certain frequencies, however I personally feel they don't provide adequate output down low, especially for an HT application.

For music, it's not much of a competition. If you have the space, horns will kick ported ass since you can get away with running only 35hz and up.

When my lab15s get here, I'd build a horn if I could fit one under my bench. Unfortunately, ported box tuned to ~34hz it is in ~5cufft.
This is partly why I was suggesting a dual approach, a dual approach allows him to get the raw power of a horn in the higher frequencies with a 30-40Hz tune and he can build a ULF solution for the low end.

I disagree about the horn not providing enough low end, he has the space to make it large enough I think. Large low tuned FLHs are uncharted territory for this very reason, because no one ever has the space nor wants to take the risk. Everyone just wants to follow the leader. Have you noticed how ported subs started gaining in popularity after you switched?

Joking aside, I do think he can make a large low tuned low bass horn and a bass/mid bass horn work with a few caveats, one is getting the right design. I will be the first one to say that with poor design the FLH looses its greatness. Second, integration. If he can cross these two bridges then hes got it all in the bag.

The type of bass one likes should factor into their decision for a system in my view, you may have a mismatch of output with horns but EQ is available, at worst its extra unused headroom keeping the system especially linear in the more audible and impactful frequencies, I don't see a downside to that. You mention theres no reason to build a horn for full range, what I have been trying to explain is that for people who like horns it is more about their sound and feel, not about measured SPL.
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #215 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 06:58 PM
Member
 
Cortga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Mostly in agreement, but OP mentioned he wanted extension to 14 or 15hz. There's not going to be a horn that will adequately provide that. Mixing and matching, you still won't keep up on the bottom end, so it ends up being an exercise in futility. By the time you can keep up on the bottom end, you might as well run everything full range and then there's no real need for horns at all in this scenario. I won't argue at all that horns will be more efficient and provide more output above certain frequencies, however I personally feel they don't provide adequate output down low, especially for an HT application.

For music, it's not much of a competition. If you have the space, horns will kick ported ass since you can get away with running only 35hz and up.

When my lab15s get here, I'd build a horn if I could fit one under my bench. Unfortunately, ported box tuned to ~34hz it is in ~5cufft.
A horn can do 14 or 15 Hz no problem, but it doesn't fit under a workbench
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	subaud1.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	67.7 KB
ID:	190754  
Mfusick likes this.
Cortga is offline  
post #216 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 06:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
OK really quick... The space thing keeps coming up but I am not looking for the most bass per space, I am looking for the best bass possible in unlimited space. 90 cubic foot cabinets and multiples of them is fine.

I can't simply double up the drivers of say an LMS Ultra and get the same output per space because my wife will leave me if I charge all those drivers on our credit card, and I'll end up paying child support, never seeing my kids while my wife runs off with another guy who has bigger subwoofers than me. That would suck a lot. Nope. Can't do that.

So LMS is fine but $2000 means I can get 2 of them. That's it. Only 2 is going to get pounded by $2000 of APLINE drivers in big folded horns, or 8 SI18's in big ported boxes. The bass per space might be important for some, but it's irrelevant here. I'm looking for the absolute best bass solution for $2000 in drivers and a reasonable amount in amps and other stuff. Best means a lot of things, headroom, dynamics, distortion, smoothness at the LP, SPL, extension etc... I WANT IT ALL. Too much is almost enough. Winning designer gets to be proclaimed a genius and see their creation built by me !

This will never be a pussified WAF factor build here. Embrace the crazy. It doesn't come too often.
I wasn't suggesting that for you. look at what I suggested and modeled for you. namely the um18-22 and zv4 18 which you can get cheaper than uxl18.
notnyt is offline  
post #217 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post
A horn can do 14 or 15 Hz no problem, but it doesn't fit under a workbench
What is this:

????

That's got a nice fat bottom

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #218 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I wasn't suggesting that for you. look at what I suggested and modeled for you. namely the um18-22 and zv4 18 which you can get cheaper than uxl18.
I saw quickly but I have not had the time to digest it fully, but rest assured I am appreciative and shall respond!

Kids are crying.. it bed time for them. I'll be back.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #219 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 07:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post
A horn can do 14 or 15 Hz no problem, but it doesn't fit under a workbench
don't want that low for my garage, just for music. frequency is fine, just no room for horn

Last edited by notnyt; 07-31-2014 at 09:35 PM.
notnyt is offline  
post #220 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 07:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
OK really quick... The space thing keeps coming up but I am not looking for the most bass per space, I am looking for the best bass possible in unlimited space. 90 cubic foot cabinets and multiples of them is fine.

I can't simply double up the drivers of say an LMS Ultra and get the same output per space because my wife will leave me if I charge all those drivers on our credit card, and I'll end up paying child support, never seeing my kids while my wife runs off with another guy who has bigger subwoofers than me. That would suck a lot. Nope. Can't do that.

So LMS is fine but $2000 means I can get 2 of them. That's it. Only 2 is going to get pounded by $2000 of APLINE drivers in big folded horns, or 8 SI18's in big ported boxes. The bass per space might be important for some, but it's irrelevant here. I'm looking for the absolute best bass solution for $2000 in drivers and a reasonable amount in amps and other stuff. Best means a lot of things, headroom, dynamics, distortion, smoothness at the LP, SPL, extension etc... I WANT IT ALL. Too much is almost enough. Winning designer gets to be proclaimed a genius and see their creation built by me !

This will never be a pussified WAF factor build here. Embrace the crazy. It doesn't come too often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
What is this:

????

That's got a nice fat bottom
must be th if horn
notnyt is offline  
post #221 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 07:15 PM
Member
 
Cortga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
must be th if horn
Sorry, That is the measurement of the horn I built
The Crawler, A Floor joist horn build
Cortga is offline  
post #222 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003



Such a great idea ^

lol.

I could do something like this and park it in the garage below, feeding up from the floor?



or like this:



I think indoors and near field those might kick ass ^


-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #223 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 07:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Where is that homer drooling pic...

If you build that, I am going to be tempted to fly to the US to listen to your system...

Your comment about near field is a good one, you want near field for insanity.
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #224 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 08:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 49th parallel
Posts: 2,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
First before anything else, I would want you to acquire and learn to use a microphone and a measurement system. For $ 150ish ( or less depending on what you buy ) and a laptop you can learn a quite a bit measuring.

Go to GTG's, listen to other people's stuff and measure it.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
michael hurd is offline  
post #225 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 08:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lilmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
First before anything else, I would want you to acquire and learn to use a microphone and a measurement system. For $ 150ish ( or less depending on what you buy ) and a laptop you can learn a quite a bit measuring.

Go to GTG's, listen to other people's stuff and measure it.
+1

Proper measurements are the only way to "know".

If you're serious about design, you really need to measure impedance too.
lilmike is offline  
post #226 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 08:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lilmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 2,194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
...snip...

I'm looking for the absolute best bass solution for $2000 in drivers and a reasonable amount in amps and other stuff. Best means a lot of things, headroom, dynamics, distortion, smoothness at the LP, SPL, extension etc... I WANT IT ALL. Too much is almost enough. Winning designer gets to be proclaimed a genius and see their creation built by me !

This will never be a pussified WAF factor build here. Embrace the crazy. It doesn't come too often.
Hmmm.....
Mfusick likes this.
lilmike is offline  
post #227 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 09:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,372
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 143
I don't get this.

You say that this theatre will be huge, decked out, star ceiling, custom floor plan, bar, and the subwoofers get the K-Mart budget? WTF.

You are talking about spending HUNDREDS of hours designing, building, testing, scrapping, redesigning a horn that will only get you 3Hz more extension than existing designs that have been tested and proven. WTF.

You want to spend all this time doing this as a new father of twins. WTF.

You have probably never experienced clean reference level, but want 10dB more. Notnyt makes a TREMENDOUS point. Go to NY, experience his system and determine whether or not you need that kind of SPL. Then go to popalock's house and see if you want stuff below 12-15Hz. You just might.

You will build a multi-thousand dollar theater and you want to crack the drywall and break the room you spent thousands (if not tens of thousands) on with the sound system? WTF.

Seriously. This thread has just jumped a freakin' school of sharks.

Oh, and to all the folks who claim the superiority inherent in horns:

Set up a blinded test in an open field (no room effects) in which WELL DESIGNED sealed, ported and horn loaded enclosures have identical freq response, identical distortion curves (or as close as you can get), and identical headroom with proper time and phase alignment to the mains and play them at identical SPL and see who can pick which one is which and which is best. I will then believe one enclosure type is superior. Otherwise, just saying one type is 'best' is smoke-filled, coffee house crap.

JSS
Willie, LTD02, notnyt and 1 others like this.
maxmercy is offline  
post #228 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
I think you are over reacting just a tad have some fun with this, and don't be upset about stuff that hasn't happened yet, it might never. I'm just trying to find the best solution for me, and I don't consider $2000 in drivers to start "cheap" because it's a lot of money to me and my family. I also said I'd like to upgrade or an upgrade path. My goal is to get the best possible theater I can for my allotted budget and to create an awesome space to chase my hobby and passion for many years to come. I'm well aware of the financial and time constraints. If I did not enjoy this stuff I wouldn't be here.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #229 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
+1

Proper measurements are the only way to "know".

If you're serious about design, you really need to measure impedance too.
+2 . I'm on board 100% with this.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #230 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 09:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
This is partly why I was suggesting a dual approach, a dual approach allows him to get the raw power of a horn in the higher frequencies with a 30-40Hz tune and he can build a ULF solution for the low end.

I disagree about the horn not providing enough low end, he has the space to make it large enough I think. Large low tuned FLHs are uncharted territory for this very reason, because no one ever has the space nor wants to take the risk. Everyone just wants to follow the leader. Have you noticed how ported subs started gaining in popularity after you switched?

Joking aside, I do think he can make a large low tuned low bass horn and a bass/mid bass horn work with a few caveats, one is getting the right design. I will be the first one to say that with poor design the FLH looses its greatness. Second, integration. If he can cross these two bridges then hes got it all in the bag.

The type of bass one likes should factor into their decision for a system in my view, you may have a mismatch of output with horns but EQ is available, at worst its extra unused headroom keeping the system especially linear in the more audible and impactful frequencies, I don't see a downside to that. You mention theres no reason to build a horn for full range, what I have been trying to explain is that for people who like horns it is more about their sound and feel, not about measured SPL.
The problem with getting that extra extension with a horn is that the size requirements expand exponentially. Furthermore, a FLH has a rising response, and down at low frequencies, they lose their advantage. Perhaps a tapped horn properly designed could dig low enough. Something else to consider is a 6th order bandpass setup.
notnyt is offline  
post #231 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Can we rewind a second and touch back on tapped horn vs front or offset again ?

I've read a couple conflicting things; I've read that offset or front loaded was better but took more space or that in other words tapped could hit lower extension in the same space. True ?

I thought I read Lilmike said earlier he liked his tapped horns better and thought they sounded better. (True?)

Mike could you quickly answer:

Of all your designs which is your favorite and why?
Of all your designs which is loudest ?
Of all your designs which is lowest?

I'd really appreciate your opinion and feedback.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #232 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Can we rewind a second and touch back on tapped horn vs front or offset again ?

I've read a couple conflicting things; I've read that offset of front loaded was better but took more space or in other words tapped could hit lower extension I. The same space. True ?

I thought I read Lilmike said earlier he liked his tapped horns better and thought they sounded better. (True?)

Mike could you quickly answer:

Of all your designs which is your favorite and why?
Of all your designs which is loudest ?
Of all your designs which is lowest?

I'd really appreciate your opinion and feedback.
Tapped horns are more efficient. You utilize the back wave to increase efficiency. They do not do as well at higher frequencies as a front loaded horn, but they do not roll off as far down low. The Gjallerhorn is a tapped horn.

I still think that for your requirements, 2k in drivers, 1k in amps, the solution I outlined earlier will be the most robust with the greatest extension. SPL levels higher than you can probably stand. You say you want an upgrade path, but I can't really imagine needing or wanting to upgrade from there. Maybe get some Crowsons or something down the road

If someone thinks otherwise, post up a model with whatever you have. This is what I posted earlier.


Here's some modeling for you real quick, sticking to your budget. Bottom line is 2x um18-22 in a 30 cubic foot ported enclosure tuned to 16hz. Next is 4 woofers, then 8 woofers. That runs a few dollars over 2k, but you can probably get a discount if you call them directly. They're modeled with 1kw per driver.. so 8kw for 8 drivers. System stays below xmax and port air velocity isn't a problem. FP14000 will power the entire system, or you can get a pair of nu6000dsp, or whatever else floats your boat. Wood will run ~400. That's insanely loud.

This is with 1000 watts per driver, highpassed to control excursion below tuning.




Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.PNG
Views:	178
Size:	14.7 KB
ID:	191018   Click image for larger version

Name:	c2.PNG
Views:	179
Size:	7.8 KB
ID:	191026  
Mfusick likes this.

Last edited by notnyt; 07-31-2014 at 09:54 PM.
notnyt is offline  
post #233 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 09:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
notnyt is offline  
post #234 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 10:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post
Sorry, That is the measurement of the horn I built
The Crawler, A Floor joist horn build
Interesting, do you have a model or drawing of it? Hard to get a good idea how it went together from the pics.
notnyt is offline  
post #235 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
First question is I'm not as familiar with the um18-22. Can you link me up?

Better or worse than uxl18?

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #236 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 10:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
First question is I'm not as familiar with the um18-22. Can you link me up?

Better or worse than uxl18?
Not as good, but half the price. Supposed to stop being vaporware this week. We'll see. I'd go zv4 18 from sundown before uxl18. They're cheaper than UXL18 by a bit as well, and ship from the US. A friend/sudown dealer has a large order coming in shortly. He's putting 8 in my old sealed enclosures. There will be pics.

um18-22: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...-coil--295-518

sundown zv4 18: http://www.sundownaudio.com/index.ph...-4-series.html
notnyt is offline  
post #237 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 10:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chrapladm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,955
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 101
I love exploring but I dont think your going to beat Not's suggestion. Either way this would be a killer sub system.

Not speaking of 6th order have you ever built a system like Mr Seatons? I dont know if you recall seeing the pictures he posted of a 4th or 6th order type system he built for someone that looked quite interesting. I think he used 18 TC PR's but I could be wrong. I am assuming you have seen it. Either way just curious.
chrapladm is online now  
post #238 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 10:17 PM
Member
 
Cortga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Interesting, do you have a model or drawing of it? Hard to get a good idea how it went together from the pics.
I modeled it in hornresp and used the output to make a template, then built it in place, measure twice then cut to fit.
Cortga is offline  
post #239 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 10:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,566
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
I love exploring but I dont think your going to beat Not's suggestion. Either way this would be a killer sub system.

Not speaking of 6th order have you ever built a system like Mr Seatons? I dont know if you recall seeing the pictures he posted of a 4th or 6th order type system he built for someone that looked quite interesting. I think he used 18 TC PR's but I could be wrong. I am assuming you have seen it. Either way just curious.

I remember seeing some interesting builds from him, but I don't recall anything bandpass. I recall seeing him building something with 15's behind some 18" prs.
notnyt is offline  
post #240 of 414 Old 07-31-2014, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 24,123
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Not as good, but half the price. Supposed to stop being vaporware this week. We'll see. I'd go zv4 18 from sundown before uxl18. They're cheaper than UXL18 by a bit as well, and ship from the US. A friend/sudown dealer has a large order coming in shortly. He's putting 8 in my old sealed enclosures. There will be pics.

um18-22: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...-coil--295-518

sundown zv4 18: http://www.sundownaudio.com/index.ph...-4-series.html
Those do look awesome .

Quick question I've never asked. Would mixing different subs be problematic in the same style enclosure and tune?

Let's say I started with 4 of something ported at 15hz. Added 4 more of something else at later date also ported at 15hz. Problem ?

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off