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post #1 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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What if....

So with all this talk about these larger and larger horns lately I thought I would share something I have been wanting to do for a while now and see what you guys think. Eventually I will be building a new house with a dedicated theater room. Initially I thought it would go in the basement but with the recent realization that it is almost impossible to reliably keep a basement dry I thought it would be better to keep all of this expensive work above grade. Basically this idea started as a masonry room within another masonry room where the inner room would be the theater and the outer room would be the rear chamber for a massive IB. The room within a room was mainly for sound mitigation in the rest of the house. I was dead set on sealed/IB from past experience as being the best of all worlds for my liking. However since building a few bass horns over the years, I have now seen the light so to speak and believe this is what I want to do. Also from countless hours of internet perusal, I came across a room that a guy made where a massive bass horn was under the floor of the listening room and thought that was rather cool. So that circuitous route landed me with what you see below in a crude hacked out model of this concept. I would also have a AT screen (not shown) across the room in front of the horn mouths where the LCR speakers would go.

Grey: 8” block or poured concrete exterior wall. The opening you see in the corridor would be to the rest of the house.
Orange: 8” block or poured concrete interior wall.
Green: 8” block or poured concrete Horn wall.
Blue: Driver motor board. Would probably be laminated plywood for future serviceability and upgradeability.
White: 8-16 UXL’s or LMS 18’s. ½ total quantity per side.
Red: Double doors into the theater and single doors to the backspace of the room within a room for equipment and driver access.

Questions:
1) Would making the two horns for different pass bands cause any phase issues at the listening position? The LP would probably be in front of the double door shown in the picture. Say 1 side was 30Hz down and the other side for 30Hz to 120ish?
2) If the two horns are identical should they be constructed as shown or have the mouths meet at a point in the middle, effectively removing the center orange wall?
3) I am preferring a front loaded horn for several reasons, but with this size of real-estate consumed by the horn, would there be any benefit with a tapped horn or different alignment?
4) Would the masonry walls need bracing throughout their length?
5) Any ideas on ceiling structure in the horn sections? I think the rest of the ceilings could be traditional building materials (joists and DD+GG) but I have concerns that the horn sections would need to be something else. The floor would be a poured slab.
6) Would there be any benefit for ULF content with an IB/Horn combination? Or with FLHs this big with the ULF output be sufficient? I can make the horns as long as needed within reason.
7) Is this too crazy or just the right amount?
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post #2 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 10:05 PM
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There are a lot of reasons not to do this and they've kind of been discussed to death in some of the other horn posts lately. Either build multiple smaller horns that you can maneuver, or just build ported enclosures. In the same volume of space, they'll be just as loud, dig lower, and have a smoother and flatter frequency response. The downfall is more drivers and more power required.
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post #3 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 10:29 PM
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So you are basically turning your theater into a Matterhorn sub. Sweet!!!

32 UXL-18's
I'd like to hear that one day!

I think you should really fly over to NotNyt's place and listen to his octal LMS-18's on 35.2kW before you deafen yourself with 32 of them.
Then you would know what you are getting yourself into before wasting $20-40,000
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post #4 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
So you are basically turning your theater into a Matterhorn sub. Sweet!!!

32 UXL-18's
I'd like to hear that one day!

I think you should really fly over to NotNyt's place and listen to his octal LMS-18's on 35.2kW before you deafen yourself with 32 of them.
Then you would know what you are getting yourself into before wasting $20-40,000
Seriously, even half my system is so far beyond overkill its laughable.


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post #5 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 10:48 PM
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I know... I have nearly a Full-NotNyt-equivalent of your old sealed rig now.
Most people find this level of bass distasteful and unethical... (LOL )
Me personally, I'm mostly cop limited... that's the only thing keeping my SPL low and reasonable. LOL
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post #6 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Seriously, even half my system is so far beyond overkill its laughable.
Actually 1/4 would cover 99% of peoples actual listening.
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post #7 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I know... I have nearly a Full-NotNyt-equivalent of your old sealed rig now.
Most people find this level of bass distasteful and unethical... (LOL )
Me personally, I'm mostly cop limited... that's the only thing keeping my SPL low and reasonable. LOL
I'd say you should build some ported enclosures, but don't want you to end up getting arrested


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post #8 of 39 Old 07-30-2014, 11:28 PM
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With just 4 sealed 18's and 16,000watts you can literally break the crust of the earth with this song... let alone 8, 16 or 32 of them!


Just crank it up and let the bass thump you.

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post #9 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostick4 View Post
So with all this talk about these larger and larger horns lately I thought I would share something I have been wanting to do for a while now and see what you guys think. Eventually I will be building a new house with a dedicated theater room. Initially I thought it would go in the basement but with the recent realization that it is almost impossible to reliably keep a basement dry I thought it would be better to keep all of this expensive work above grade. Basically this idea started as a masonry room within another masonry room where the inner room would be the theater and the outer room would be the rear chamber for a massive IB. The room within a room was mainly for sound mitigation in the rest of the house. I was dead set on sealed/IB from past experience as being the best of all worlds for my liking. However since building a few bass horns over the years, I have now seen the light so to speak and believe this is what I want to do. Also from countless hours of internet perusal, I came across a room that a guy made where a massive bass horn was under the floor of the listening room and thought that was rather cool. So that circuitous route landed me with what you see below in a crude hacked out model of this concept. I would also have a AT screen (not shown) across the room in front of the horn mouths where the LCR speakers would go.

Grey: 8” block or poured concrete exterior wall. The opening you see in the corridor would be to the rest of the house.
Orange: 8” block or poured concrete interior wall.
Green: 8” block or poured concrete Horn wall.
Blue: Driver motor board. Would probably be laminated plywood for future serviceability and upgradeability.
White: 8-16 UXL’s or LMS 18’s. ½ total quantity per side.
Red: Double doors into the theater and single doors to the backspace of the room within a room for equipment and driver access.

Questions:
1) Would making the two horns for different pass bands cause any phase issues at the listening position? The LP would probably be in front of the double door shown in the picture. Say 1 side was 30Hz down and the other side for 30Hz to 120ish?
2) If the two horns are identical should they be constructed as shown or have the mouths meet at a point in the middle, effectively removing the center orange wall?
3) I am preferring a front loaded horn for several reasons, but with this size of real-estate consumed by the horn, would there be any benefit with a tapped horn or different alignment?
4) Would the masonry walls need bracing throughout their length?
5) Any ideas on ceiling structure in the horn sections? I think the rest of the ceilings could be traditional building materials (joists and DD+GG) but I have concerns that the horn sections would need to be something else. The floor would be a poured slab.
6) Would there be any benefit for ULF content with an IB/Horn combination? Or with FLHs this big with the ULF output be sufficient? I can make the horns as long as needed within reason.
7) Is this too crazy or just the right amount?
Welcome to the light.

A lot of your questions are being covered in the other thread, you should give it a read.

In short it would be ideal to use different horn designs over different bandwidth, DSP along with measurements will help to integrate. A TH will offer more output at the lower corner for a given size than a FLH but will have more frequency and time domain issues, however as the size of the horn approaches the ideal for a FLH the advantage of a TH does fade away, at least that is my understanding. A TH and FLH have a different sound, you should stick with whatever you prefer. An IB with the same model and same amount of drivers as FLHs (not THs which will require a HPF) won't have any real output advantages over the FLH as the displacement is still the same, assuming the horn is operating under the knee, if it is above the knee it will destroy the IB/sealed/ported if well designed.

When it comes to massive horns there is no such thing as too crazy IMO. One final note I think these horn threads are best posted over at diyaudio where you will get more helpful replies, AVS DIY tends to be the domain of direct rads.
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post #10 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:32 AM
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Sometimes excess is good

But yeah basically everyone is right here depending what side of the fence you are on.

I'm not sure $40,000 worth of masonry is worth it which is prolly why almost no one does it. But damn it would be nice!

Horns do sound better within their designed operating range, they way the suppress harmonics and distortion is advantageous to clean and effortless bass. It's really difficult to get that from sealed or ported without throwing money at the problem. In some ways great horns are too good, they sound funny because you are not accustomed to hearing bass that low, loud, and clean.

I'm not going to argue against bassthathz or notnyt and truth be told I'm rather envious of both their systems but I'd just point out the number of drivers and amps they have. Sure that's a solution. But if you don't want to go that route then horns are the right path. The only way to get bass that loud and clean without horns is to totally engineer your bass solution like these two guys have so that at normal listening it's clean and effortless. You won't get what notnyt has with two amps and drivers, nor what bassthsthz has with a few sealed or IB subs.

With a modest system when you crank it up it starts to decline in sound quality, you lose the dynamics, the clean low distortion, that effortlessness, and compression creeps in; it's only going to get worse as you keep cranking and your amps and drivers heat up. Over engineering a system to a level of laughable like those two guys is a great way to ensure you get loud clean bass. It's cool they posted because it shows you another path, both sealed and ported. Just take a look at their systems.

I think horns do have a distinct sound. It's almost impossible not to love and appreciate their effortlessness and seemingly unlimited dynamic range. When you can pick up 14db in the excursion limited range with a nice horn design over a sealed system it's going to be really hard to design a system with the same driver and power that's anywhere close to the horn. It would never sound as good at full tilt. The big question is can you build it ? And if you can, would you actually want to? That's what separates the men from the boys, and why so little monster horns or crazy multiples get built. It's just easier to do otherwise.

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post #11 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
With a modest system when you crank it up it starts to decline in sound quality, you lose the dynamics, the clean low distortion, that effortlessness, and compression creeps in; it's only going to get worse as you keep cranking and your amps and drivers heat up. Over engineering a system to a level of laughable like those two guys is a great way to ensure you get loud clean bass. It's cool they posted because it shows you another path, both sealed and ported. Just take a look at their systems.

I think horns do have a distinct sound. It's almost impossible not to love and appreciate their effortlessness and seemingly unlimited dynamic range. When you can pick up 14db in the excursion limited range with a nice horn design over a sealed system it's going to be really hard to design a system with the same driver and power that's anywhere close to the horn. It would never sound as good at full tilt. The big question is can you build it ? And if you can, would you actually want to? That's what separates the men from the boys, and why so little monster horns or crazy multiples get built. It's just easier to do otherwise.
Meh, bit of horn zealotry going on here. Personally, I prefer the sound of ported over horns. I've built plenty of each. I picked up 12-13db at tune over sealed by going ported, and have wider bandwidth and smoother response than a horn. If he has the budget, ported is the way to go. Horns are good if you don't feel like spending on drivers for whatever reason. They just take up too much space otherwise and don't dig low enough. There's a reason you don't see many giant horns. They're just not practical.


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post #12 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 09:12 AM
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You basically just said what I said. We agree. Only difference is you like ported best. I don't think there was zealotry, everything I said is 100% true. I could have said the same about your post.. and ported... lol But I think realistically there is just more than one way to do it so there isn't much point in arguing. It's all personal preference so no one is wrong or right. Sealed can kick ass. Ported can kick ass. Horns can kick ass. They just have different characteristics.

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post #13 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

You basically just said what I said. We agree. Only difference is you like ported best. I don't think there was zealotry, everything I said is 100% true. I could have said the same about your post.. and ported... lol But I think realistically there is just more than one way to do it so there isn't much point in arguing. It's all personal preference so no one is wrong or right. Sealed can kick ass. Ported can kick ass. Horns can kick ass. They just have different characteristics.
Quote:
It's almost impossible not to love and appreciate their effortlessness and seemingly unlimited dynamic range. When you can pick up 14db in the excursion limited range with a nice horn design over a sealed system it's going to be really hard to design a system with the same driver and power that's anywhere close to the horn. It would never sound as good at full tilt.
Except what you post simply isn't true. It's not hard to design a system that's comparable to a horn in the same volume. "seemingly unlimited dynamic range" and "would never sound as good at full tilt" are some of the comments I was referring to when I mentioned the zealotry. Have you built a horn yet that even digs under or near 20hz? How many do you know of that dig lower without other compromises?


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post #14 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 01:39 PM
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I think the OP should start small and safe, with say 4 ported UXL-18's, and if he is still unhappy with the results after that, double it to 8,
and only then if still unhappy should he invest more money, pouring huge vats of cement permanently fixed in place etc etc.

How many subs has the OP built in the past using drivers as beefy as the UXL/LMS/RE/SI24?
Going from a 12 inch SVS or Velodyne to 8 UXL/LMS's is gonna be one hell of a shock. He needs a reference point to compare.

Nobody should get directly out of cadets and then jump directly into a prestige Mach 10 capable Aurora stealth fighter carrying active 100 megatonne nuclear warheads with fingers to the sky.

You need to start with a Pinto, and then upgrade to 1990 Corvette, and then maybe a single Bugatti.

Nobody should buy 32 Bugatti Veyron's, one for each color of the rainbow, as their first car on their legal birthday; and be found dead the same day having impacted the other side of the dealership parking lot at 300mph because they don't know how to shift or handle 1000hp times 32!!! LOL


That said... no matter what boxes you put 8, 16 or 32 UXL/LMS's in, even if you did it 100% wrong, it is still gonna blow your head off. You can't really mess up with that much overkill.
As Nike says: JUST DO IT!!!

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post #15 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 01:47 PM
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Here's some modeling for you real quick, copied from another thread. Bottom line is 2x um18-22 in a 30 cubic foot ported enclosure tuned to 16hz. Next is 4 woofers, then 8 woofers. They're modeled with 1kw per driver.. so 8kw for 8 drivers. System stays below xmax and port air velocity isn't a problem. FP14000 will power the entire system, or you can get a pair of nu6000dsp, or whatever else floats your boat. That's insanely loud. If you go with UXL18s, add at least 3db onto the top of that.






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post #16 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by boostick4 View Post
I think the rest of the ceilings could be traditional building materials (joists and DD+GG) but I have concerns that the horn sections would need to be something else. The floor would be a poured slab.
You need a cement ceiling you will lose a lot of bass power out of the ceiling and disrupt the rest of the house with heavy bass, you also want to build a raised wood floor so that you can get extra tactile vibrations. Everyone who has just a cement floor complains that their seat/feet don't vibrate with the bass and that they miss that from their 2nd floor previous system. Some even go as far as adding butt shakers in addition to their multiple 18's.

Drywall with GreenGlue doesn't stop bass. That's what I have in my system, it only reduces the bass by 5-20db at MOST. So that 120-140db of bass is gonna fly right through like it ain't even there.

A lot of people use up to 3inches thick of MDF with 2x6 bracing for the baffle wall just to make double sure it doesn't move none.

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post #17 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:01 PM
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BassthatHz is right. Low frequencies have no respect for sound proofing. None at all. The very second you venture into crazy bass land with 120db+ and subsonic extension you have no hope to contain it. You might improve the situation but you'll never solve it.

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post #18 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
BassthatHz is right. Low frequencies have no respect for sound proofing. None at all. The very second you venture into crazy bass land with 120db+ and subsonic extension you have no hope to contain it. You might improve the situation but you'll never solve it.
Building theater under ground level is a start, but I think he said he didn't want to. My neighbors haven't ever complained. It's loud enough they'll hear sometimes, but after going through two walls and a large distance, it's not that bad. Mine's on the first floor.


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post #19 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 03:58 PM
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Meh, bit of horn zealotry going on here. Personally, I prefer the sound of ported over horns. I've built plenty of each. I picked up 12-13db at tune over sealed by going ported, and have wider bandwidth and smoother response than a horn. If he has the budget, ported is the way to go. Horns are good if you don't feel like spending on drivers for whatever reason. They just take up too much space otherwise and don't dig low enough. There's a reason you don't see many giant horns. They're just not practical.
And the ported zealots aren't happy about it.
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post #20 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 04:25 PM
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DD+GG stops treble very well, the stuff above 200hz (assuming you don't have any weaknesses in the soundproofing).

A double set of DD+GG with clips will easily stop a full THX reference level amount of treble if done right, which is more like what I have.
A single will greatly reduce it but there will likely be a small amount of treble that gets through still.

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post #21 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 04:51 PM
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And the ported zealots aren't happy about it.
Rofl, the ported "zealots" at least provide models to go along with suggestions.


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post #22 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:08 PM
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Rofl, the ported "zealots" at least provide models to go along with suggestions.
Because its a simple task to design a ported cabinet. Horns take knowledge to design properly and I am not an expert at designing them. My post in this thread was in jest, I did not mean any offense as I took your post to be in jest as well.
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post #23 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:09 PM
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Because its a simple task to design a ported cabinet. Horns take knowledge to design properly and I am not an expert at designing them. My post in this thread was in jest, I did not mean any offense as I took your post to be in jest as well.
No offense taken, see smiley face? All in good fun, just trying to get some more designs posted and good fun competition That's what it's about!


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post #24 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:21 PM
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DD+GG stops treble very well, the stuff above 200hz (assuming you don't have any weaknesses in the soundproofing).

A double set of DD+GG with clips will easily stop a full THX reference level amount of treble if done right, which is more like what I have.
A single will greatly reduce it but there will likely be a small amount of treble that gets through still.
This is very true again! The most effective solution against bass is a room inside a room. Make the bass go through double layers of DW+GG and enter a space then it needs to go through another layer of DW and other surfaces to keep going. Bass will lose a lot of it's power traveling across the open air before it hits the next surface. Assuming two walls are not coupled to each other, going through the first wall is not too hard but going through the air gap and then another wall kills the power greatly. The inside room needs to be a bunker and completely decoupled from the exterior room and the rest of the house. That might work. But for a bass head like you blasting single digits and 150db burps... nah... You'd still hear it.

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post #25 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:24 PM
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No offense taken, see smiley face? All in good fun, just trying to get some more designs posted and good fun competition That's what it's about!
Ok.. give me some time. I'll take a rip at it. My horn design skills are "weak" but it sounds fun. I'm not so bad on WINISD though... A ported vs sealed vs IB vs horn with same driver might be interesting.

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post #26 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:26 PM
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Ok.. give me some time. I'll take a rip at it. My horn design skills are "weak" but it sounds fun. I'm not so bad on WINISD though... A ported vs sealed vs IB vs horn with same driver might be interesting.
sealed and ib will have same max output. ib will just take less power down low...

As for same driver, not really important... anyway, your horn vs ported thread has some interesting models in it now lol.
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post #27 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:34 PM
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No offense taken, see smiley face? All in good fun, just trying to get some more designs posted and good fun competition That's what it's about!
I don't view it as competition. I view it as a lot of guys sitting around, each with a different beer in their hand and each of them favoring a different team, but at its core, we all love beer and sports.
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post #28 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 05:36 PM
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I don't view it as competition. I view it as a lot of guys sitting around, each with a different beer in their hand and each of them favoring a different team, but at its core, we all love beer and sports.
I wasn't talking so much about competing with each other, but putting forth different designs to improve upon the last and push the envelope...


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post #29 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 06:00 PM
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I don't view it as competition. I view it as a lot of guys sitting around, each with a different beer in their hand and each of them favoring a different team, but at its core, we all love beer and sports.
Yeah! We can have fun with this sport, besides I'm scared of Notnyts ported system. I don't think I could top it, so best not to stand in his shadow right ? haha.

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post #30 of 39 Old 07-31-2014, 09:06 PM
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Yeah! We can have fun with this sport, besides I'm scared of Notnyts ported system. I don't think I could top it, so best not to stand in his shadow right ? haha.
Hah, seriously, come take a drive, so you can get an idea of what a proper ported system will do


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