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post #391 of 632 Old 08-30-2014, 08:02 PM
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No, the only other inexpensive pro amp I own is an Behringer A500 which I really like. The only reason I went and tested this amp is because I could tell something was off. I don't have the gear to do thorough amplifier testing hence the measurement through a speaker, but since I could easily hear difference between amps I knew it would show up in the measurement.

I don't know if the one that I pulled out of the box of my two just happened to be bad or if they all exhibit this problem to some extent. I may pull the other one out just to try it but since at least one other person has also described its sound similar to what I heard I know it's not isolated to mine.

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Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post
Thanks for this info, mtg90. Much appreciated. How would you rate one of these vs. the internal amps in my Denon x4000? My speakers are 99 db efficient, and I can't tell a difference between the x4000 and amps and the x1000's, but to be honest I'm not sure if I have the ability to hear it very well.
The high odd order distortion I measured is way more then any decent amplifier should generate within operating limits, your Denon x4000 should be much better in that regard. The distortion can be more difficult to pick out with music. An analogy would be screen light uniformity it can be hard to tell how uniform the light output is of a screen when displaying a complex landscape, yet throw a blank white or gray image up and it becomes very apparent. The same can be said for audio, with complex music it can be hard to pick out the distortion from a complex signal but play a sine wave or sweep and the distortion is much easier to hear. If you can play some sine wave tones between 1000hz and 4000hz or run a sine wave sweep and compare the two amplifiers, If yours does it the distortion should sound like (because it is) overtones or like a bad sample rate conversion.
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post #392 of 632 Old 08-30-2014, 08:02 PM
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I can not hear a difference in sound from my Onkyo 818 power and the x1000 for my v-8 front heights. We will give it a test at the GTG at my house next weekend.

Last edited by d_c; 08-30-2014 at 08:08 PM.
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post #393 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 01:36 AM
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I can hear a difference between the amps in my receiver and the Crown X1000. The music, produced by my speakers is more full. Receiver amps tend to sound lean with my speakers, external amps give a fuller, richer sound.

I tend to listen at lower than live level volumes, so I am using whatever amplification used well within it's power range.

I have experienced the same sound difference in car audio. Adding a separate amp to any system I have owned provides a clarity to the sound that the amplification provided by the head unit doesn't seem to deliver.

Best way I can describe the difference is that a separate amp provides better instrument separation and fullness to the sound at my desired listening level.

My limited experience with the Crown X1000 amp has been all positive sound wise. It has added that additional richness to the sound that I was seeking, at a minimal cost.

Might be that I'm just providing the headroom and power my particular speakers require to open up and sound right. I might have a liking for distortion in my sound. Who knows.
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post #394 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
I am going to post some measurements below...
Thanks for posting this...

I have a Behringer A500 amp on sub duty so I will swap in the Crown amp and use the A500 to power my surround speakers. BTW, just finished the Fusion-6 Vibe build for a music only system in my kitchen and wanted to let you know how wonderful they sound...it makes my cooking taste much better!
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post #395 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 02:12 PM
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These amps do sound better at low levels than when pushed. I was testing driving Maggi 1.7s which are very inefficient. It was not hard to drive the X1000 to clipping with dynamic material. That said, my monoblock amps that I use as a reference are only rated at 75w/channel at 8ohms, 150W at 4ohms, yet sounded much cleaner at any volume.

mtg90 nailed it with the high odd harmonic content. This is one of the clear contributers to harsh "transistor" sound. Gedes has a lot interesting comments on the audibility of THD distortion and why it is meaningless. If this amp had the same THD specifications, but all the distortion was 2nd harmonic, it would sound great.
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post #396 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 04:29 PM
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Matt,


I have an omnimic. Can you advise how I can test this on my x1000? I have three of them.


Have you tested your second unit?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #397 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 05:49 PM
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What you want to do is get a baseline distortion reading through your speakers from something like an AVR's outputs. Then connect your X1000 to the preamp outputs level match and take the same measurement. If you are using a pre/pro then you'll need to test against another amp.

Do the measurement nearfield 6-12" from the speaker, (you can center the mic on the horn if using one of your 228's). Level at the mic should be between 90-100dB. Your 228's distortion should be much lower then the X1000's if your units test the same as mine. If your x1000's do have the high distortion you should see elevated levels of 3rd and 5th H.D.

I believe Omnimic only goes up to 5th order which is fine for testing speakers because they do not often have high order distortion products mostly 2nd and 3rd order. My measurements were showing high levels all the way up to 9th order which is REW's odd order limit. There could have been even higher order distortion products I would have had to run a spectrum on some sine waves to check manually.

Unfortunately I was heading out towards my local Guitar Center today and returned both units, I never opened the second one. If someone in the Chicagoland area bought one and would like me to test it for them PM me.
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post #398 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 06:03 PM
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They still appear ok for sub use.

Mike
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post #399 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 07:45 PM
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Yes, the distortion I measured was all in the midrange and up. They are fine for subwoofer use.
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post #400 of 632 Old 08-31-2014, 09:33 PM
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I would guess these would be good amps for surrounds though right?

Last edited by raynist; 09-01-2014 at 08:06 AM.
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post #401 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 07:38 AM
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hope everyone that wanted an x1000 ordered them! Back to regular price at GC. MF still has good price on x2000 and x4000 though..
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post #402 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecmec View Post
hope everyone that wanted an x1000 ordered them! Back to regular price at GC. MF still has good price on x2000 and x4000 though..
I have two that I am not going to keep, was going to send them back unless someone wants them. $99 plus actual shipping charges each. Located in Pittsburgh PA if anyone wants to pick them up.
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post #403 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecmec View Post
hope everyone that wanted an x1000 ordered them! Back to regular price at GC. MF still has good price on x2000 and x4000 though..
Just imagine how upset youd be if you spent $250 on these buggers if the sound so cruddy!
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post #404 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 08:27 AM
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Just imagine how upset youd be if you spent $250 on these buggers if the sound so cruddy!
they dont sound bad ill measure one of mine later today or tomorrow.
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post #405 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 09:01 AM
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Looks like GC has stopped the sale on the X4000's too. Back to $850.

If you can still get one from MF for $299, it's a super deal.
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post #406 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post
they dont sound bad ill measure one of mine later today or tomorrow.
I hope your right, i got four coming next week!
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post #407 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 12:26 PM
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Meaurements and sound heard are different things. Most movie theaters and clubs use pro equipment and people don't leave because the sound is distorted.

Audio attracts people that tend to like measurements. Some of the most expensive components have the highest levels of distortion -tube amps and pre amps.

Measurement oriented people then subdivide distortion into "good" and "bad" distortion.

I have a Crown x1000 in my 2.1 music system and it sounds tons better than the amps in my receiver, that probably measure much better - distortion wise.

My x1000 is dead silent with no sound input and no fan noise. For $99 it was quite the buy.

Only regret I have is that I didn't buy 4 of them to biamp my speakers running them in bridged mode!
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post #408 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 03:18 PM
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I wonder if the open box ones at GC would still be cheap. My friend brought his x4000 back. I might grab it for no apparent reason.
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post #409 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Matt,


I have an omnimic. Can you advise how I can test this on my x1000? I have three of them.


Have you tested your second unit?
I've got an omnimic and I'll try this as well. I've got a couple x1000's also. I'll be sure to post back here...you do the same
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post #410 of 632 Old 09-01-2014, 08:16 PM
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Finally got around to hooking up the X1000 tonight using the adapter linked earlier in this thread:

http://www.amazon.com/PAC-SNI35-Adju...iglink20246-20

Using it off of my Denon X2000 for my front L/R.

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong, but there's a slight buzz sound coming from both speakers. It reminds me of the buzz from back in my electric guitar days when the amp was turned up but you weren't playing yet.

When I crank the music up, I don't hear the buzz. What's the deal with that?

Also, the green "signal" LEDs on the front seem to flicker periodically, moreso at lower volumes. What causes that and what's the remedy? Finally, what is the difference between the two voltage settings on the back of the X1000? The booklet that comes with it isn't really clear so I wasn't sure which to go with.

When I crank the volume up it's clear that the X1000 completely smokes the Denon's internal amp for the front L/R - more output and sound quality is just as good. The whole buzz sound though and flickering signal lights are something that I'm going to need to overcome.
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post #411 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 06:22 AM
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Ive never used one of those things but ideas:

1. Does it make the buzz sound without signal cable connected to amplifier? If yes without, its the amplifier. If no, then its further up the signal chain or a result of system interaction.

2. Maybe ground loop, not sure how that adapter box would play into this....

3. Maybe that adapter box is just a noisy device?

4. Try turning up the gain on the AVR and lower gain on amp, and vice versa as possible without getting either into clipping to see if you can minimize the sound.
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post #412 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 06:56 AM
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I would set the voltage to the 1.4v setting to help with the "hiss"....
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post #413 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
Finally got around to hooking up the X1000 tonight using the adapter linked earlier in this thread:

http://www.amazon.com/PAC-SNI35-Adju...iglink20246-20

Using it off of my Denon X2000 for my front L/R.

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong, but there's a slight buzz sound coming from both speakers. It reminds me of the buzz from back in my electric guitar days when the amp was turned up but you weren't playing yet.

When I crank the music up, I don't hear the buzz. What's the deal with that?

Also, the green "signal" LEDs on the front seem to flicker periodically, moreso at lower volumes. What causes that and what's the remedy? Finally, what is the difference between the two voltage settings on the back of the X1000? The booklet that comes with it isn't really clear so I wasn't sure which to go with.

When I crank the volume up it's clear that the X1000 completely smokes the Denon's internal amp for the front L/R - more output and sound quality is just as good. The whole buzz sound though and flickering signal lights are something that I'm going to need to overcome.
The buzz is probably a ground loop. If you unplug the source from the amp does it go away? You most likely can't hear it because the music masks it, but it's still there.

the green signal light is just that. As the signal/notes come into each channel it lights up. Similar to the other amps that have -20db -10bd etc. If you don't want them to flicker, either turn it up or put tape over them.
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post #414 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 06:44 PM
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Hey I'm intersted in buying one if your still thinking of selling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I have two that I am not going to keep, was going to send them back unless someone wants them. $99 plus actual shipping charges each. Located in Pittsburgh PA if anyone wants to pick them up.
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post #415 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
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Hey I'm intersted in buying one if your still thinking of selling.
Sure, shoot me a PM with your address and I will get a shipping quote to you tomorrow at lunch.
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post #416 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post
I would set the voltage to the 1.4v setting to help with the "hiss"....
I had it set at 1.4V and that's certainly the better setting for the buzz. Switching it to the lower voltage setting about doubles the level of the buzz.
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post #417 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post
The buzz is probably a ground loop. If you unplug the source from the amp does it go away? You most likely can't hear it because the music masks it, but it's still there.
Unplugging the source does make the sound go away, so that's definitely the problem. What is the best way to troubleshoot this or rectify it?

I'm using an el cheapo RCA cable that's probably 6' long and only needs to be 6" - is it worth changing that out or should I look elsewhere first?
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post #418 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
Unplugging the source does make the sound go away, so that's definitely the problem. What is the best way to troubleshoot this or rectify it?

I'm using an el cheapo RCA cable that's probably 6' long and only needs to be 6" - is it worth changing that out or should I look elsewhere first?
This will most likely solve
It

Ebay and Amazon have them. Hooks up to your cable.
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post #419 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
This will most likely solve
It

Ebay and Amazon have them. Hooks up to your cable.
Interesting device above; I've never used such a thing.

I used to get 60hz hum from an old subwoofer that I had, but after switching to a different one I didn't have the issue any longer so I thought the problem was the sub not a ground loop problem or whatever.

Does a single unit like the one above eliminate all future issues as well... say if I build 2 subs of my own (which I'm planning) would it prevent similar issues with them?
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post #420 of 632 Old 09-02-2014, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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It should solve any ground loop 60hz hum. I had a bad one and other then cheater plug it was only thing that worked. Even regrounded at cable box and that didn't help.

I have three subs and three amps and no hum.
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